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Exploring Buddhism

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
No. You completely straw manned me.

Not at all.

Here's your quote:

He is the unparalleled or never overtaken teacher of them who are possible to be taught. Teacher of "Gods and Humans".

Teacher of "Gods and Humans". There is not difference in significance between Gods and Humans. The subject of the statement is the teacher. The predicate is the conjunction of two different sort of beings. But their differences are insignificant in regard to the Buddha. He taught them both.

Bottomline is, the text speaks of many Gods.

But they are insignificant to the lesson taught.

You missed the point for some reason.

No, I simply understand why these Gods were very possibly included even though they are insignificant to Buddhism.

I am not gonna respond to the rest of the post because it's absolutely irrelevant to the OP.

Not at all. It's absolutely relevant to the OP, but, you are not interested in learning how your beliefs about Buddhism are wrong. You're avoiding. Dodging. Running away.... bye firedragon, bye....
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Teacher of "Gods and Humans". There is not difference in significance between Gods and Humans. The subject of the statement is the teacher. The predicate is the conjunction of two different sort of beings. But their differences are insignificant in regard to the Buddha. He taught them both.
If I say "I teach trained fighters and newcomers both" that does not mean they are both equal. It means the teacher is above both.

Ciao.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
This may or may not help. I have some experience of the practice of Buddhism, but not too much of the scripture (if that's the right word).

There seems to be a big difference between the approaches of (many, including Buddhism) Eastern religions and say Judaism or Christianity. The latter tend to put a high value on exact interpretation of scripture, believing that if we dive deeply enough into it we will read the mind of God. Eastern religions tend to go for an approach that emphasizes personal experience. The Tao I believe, says of itself that once you try to put it into words you have already lost some of the meaning.

So, is Buddhism theistic? The answer is really "try it for yourself and see what you find".
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Heterodox is no translation. It's a placeholder. There is nothing wrong with that. But the actual meaning of the word is "It does not exists/Non-believer". So heterodoxy is not a translation.

If you read the OP, you will see what I said clearly that it does not exactly mean atheist in other words.
I went through the trouble of explaining to you. Lost effort.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
There seems to be a big difference between the approaches of (many, including Buddhism) Eastern religions and say Judaism or Christianity. The latter tend to put a high value on exact interpretation of scripture, believing that if we dive deeply enough into it we will read the mind of God. Eastern religions tend to go for an approach that emphasizes personal experience. The Tao I believe, says of itself that once you try to put it into words you have already lost some of the meaning.
Yes. Buddhists rarely read the scripture. I agree. That's why I was referring to the Tipitaka.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Many think that Buddhism is an Atheistic type of belief system. No God's but a way of life. In Hinduism they ranked Buddhism as another Hindu philosophy but Nasthika or Atheistic. Buddhism and Jainism were both put in this category. Using the word Atheistic does not mean it's actually Atheistic. They are not atheists by definition. Just that, Nasthika means the opposite of "God exists".

The thing with this categorization of Buddhism is that written in the Tipitaka are many Gods and divine beings. Like Chathummaharajika Deva. Meaning four+great+kings+God or God of the 4 great kings. This is mentioned in the Great sutta of enlightenment. I might have the reference wrong. Included in the many Gods and divine beings are Yama, Mara, Brahma, and Indra or Sakka.

The concept of Buddhism is not like the Abrahamic religions withe some concept behind one God, but it's very much a theistic religion if you consider the existence God's and Deva's. I don't know how many Buddhists believe it's theism but many I have met truly believe it's very much a naturalistic philosophy.

Is it? What's your view?
Western Buddhism is mostly watered down and influenced by Western materialism, so of course they'll present it that way. Some of them don't even want to admit it's a religion and just want to say it's a philosophy or even just a self-help tool, which is totally ignorant.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Western Buddhism is mostly watered down and influenced by Western materialism, so of course they'll present it that way. Some of them don't even want to admit it's a religion and just want to say it's a philosophy or even just a self-help tool, which is totally ignorant.
In my honest opinion, this has taken place in Asia as well. Yet, I agree with you about the western influenced Buddhism. Scholars have written about the evolution of this very phenomena. It's an interesting matter.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
In my honest opinion, this has taken place in Asia as well. Yet, I agree with you about the western influenced Buddhism. Scholars have written about the evolution of this very phenomena. It's an interesting matter.
I would like to hear about how these ideas entered Buddhism in Asia. I've only really heard it from Westerners.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I would like to hear about how these ideas entered Buddhism in Asia. I've only really heard it from Westerners.
In Asia, there is a huge conflict and an attempt at reconciliation between scientism and belief in Buddhism. Not only young people, but even older generations who are trying to be scientifically knowledgeable. This is why they are embracing a more naturalistic worldview, while keeping Buddhism since it's their upbringing and identity. They identify as Buddhists. And in polls they identify as religious. But I believe that if someone does a good qualitative research they would find that "religious" for them is to keep the morals of Buddhism but believe in anything beyond a naturalistic world view. But I don't think that type of qualitative research has been done.

The thing is this. Within the Buddhist scripture, like the Sutta Pitaka, although there are various deities and gods mentioned, the Dhamma is portrayed without heavy metaphysical core principals. The Dhamma is recognized as a path of practice encompassing conduct, meditation, and insight, aimed at achieving the cessation of fundamental suffering (dukkha). So as a Buddhist, it's easy to reconcile between their modernization and their "religion" which they call "philosophy". A few decades ago it was religion (Agama), and it slowly but speedily changed into philosophy (Dharshana). I have heard from many. If you say Buddha Agama today, it's almost offensive.

I guess the western Buddhism was influenced by Zen Buddhism. Especially in north America where it was the Chinese settlers, the servicemen returning from WW2 and the Korean War brought their Buddhist culture with them. Although Theravada Buddhism definitely exists and is active. There is a famous temple in Washington DC. Very active, well funded, and very nice. But the Asian countries we are discussing are defined by their Buddhism. It's intrinsic, and bound to their personhood. That's why this is something truly fascinating to understand. I guess it's similar to the scenario you spoke of.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think if you dig deeper, you might find some are Gnostics (that the world is created by demons). Although they don't emphasize on it anymore, some of the texts show they believe the gods that keep this world and cycle of reincarnation with assessment are not good or perhaps a better word is they are misguided and a better word for them would be they see them as demons. They believe Buddha wanted to free mankind but not that he was sent by the keepers of this world. He is sort of like Neo in the matrix.

That is accountably and sense of self is created by misguided spirits including the keepers of this physical world.

Then others talk about punishment (temporarily) as something that is just. So I think there is divisions or contradictions in regards to all this.

I think even some talk about ways to escape this dimension while in this world and still be part of this world.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Now go to the OP again and read what I said.
You said, "Using the word Atheistic does not mean it's actually Atheistic. "

It is perfectly reasonable, since these are your words in your posts, to assume this was your position. However now you are clarifying:
If you read the OP, I was referring to the Tipitaka.
This certainly does put your post into a different light, and I'm sorry I misunderstood you, and very happy that you clarified.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Nastik is best translated as heterodox not 'atheistic'. It is not that Buddhists do not believe in Gods, but that they do not believe that Gods or worshipping them is necessary or important for achieving nirvana.
Thank you for the information, and very well said.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I know that. As I said, that's why I was referring to the Tipitaka. Because there is a big conflict between the Dhama they follow, and the scripture.
I won't dare assuming you know what you are talking about at any point here, but taking that for granted for a moment, what one calls "conflict" another might perhaps more properly call "transcendence".
 
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