Exploring Buddhism

[Glaurung]

Western Buddhism is mostly watered down and influenced by Western materialism, so of course they'll present it that way. Some of them don't even want to admit it's a religion and just want to say it's a philosophy or even just a self-help tool, which is totally ignorant.

I would go so far as to claim that Mahayana is functionally polytheistic, even if its adherents claim otherwise.

 

[mangalavara]

The concept of Buddhism is not like the Abrahamic religions withe some concept behind one God, but it's very much a theistic religion if you consider the existence God's and Deva's. I don't know how many Buddhists believe it's theism but many I have met truly believe it's very much a naturalistic philosophy.

Is it? What's your view?

My view is that real Buddhism (as opposed to ‘Secular Buddhism’ or ‘Western Buddhism’) is indeed theistic. As was mentioned in the OP, the texts of the Tipiṭaka mention divine beings such as Brahmā and Sakka. There is just no concept of Īśvara or God (with an uppercase g) in Buddhism. Even today in Theravada Buddhist countries, people worship the aforementioned divine beings and others as well such as Gaṇapati.

There are Mahāyāna texts, by the way, that acknowledge Śiva. He is included as a manifestation of the Bodhisattva Avalokiteśvara.

 

[firedragon]

My view is that real Buddhism (as opposed to ‘Secular Buddhism’ or ‘Western Buddhism’) is indeed theistic. As was mentioned in the OP, the texts of the Tipiṭaka mention divine beings such as Brahmā and Sakka. There is just no concept of Īśvara or God (with an uppercase g) in Buddhism. Even today in Theravada Buddhist countries, people worship the aforementioned divine beings and others as well such as Gaṇapati.

Very true. But the worship part is changing with a vengeance brother. Anyway, that's beyond the scope of this thread. I agree with you and I thank you for understanding the point of the OP.

There are Mahāyāna texts, by the way, that acknowledge Śiva. He is included as a manifestation of the Bodhisattva Avalokiteśvara.

I have never in my life read any Mahayana text. Hmm. Thanks for that. I would like to read some Mahayana text.

By the way.

Brahmā

How do you get that "ā" with that elongation sign on top of the a?

 

[mangalavara]

I have never in my life read any Mahayana text. Hmm. Thanks for that. I would like to read some Mahayana text.

From what I understand, the Heart of Transcendent Wisdom, better known as the Heart Sutra, is one of the most important texts in Mahāyāna. There is a long version and a short version.

How do you get that "ā" with that elongation sign on top of the a?

When using my iPhone, I hold down the letter a until the variants appear. If I’m on my laptop, I copy and paste from elsewhere such as a Notepad file of mine and contains lists of Sanskrit terminology.

 

[firedragon]

From what I understand, the Heart of Transcendent Wisdom, better known as the Heart Sutra, is one of the most important texts in Mahāyāna. There is a long version and a short version.



When using my iPhone, I hold down the letter a until the variants appear. If I’m on my laptop, I copy and paste from elsewhere such as a Notepad file of mine and contains lists of Sanskrit terminology.

Oh I see. Thanks a lot for that.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

From what I understand, the Heart of Transcendent Wisdom, better known as the Heart Sutra, is one of the most important texts in Mahāyāna. There is a long version and a short version.

The heart sutra and diamond sutra are my absolute favorites!

When the heart sutra states, "Form is emptiness, emptiness is form," it reminds me of the similar concept in Taoism that all things return to Tao, and Tao returns to all things. Chuang Tze writes, "When a student asked Huizi, 'If all things return to Tao, to what does Tao return?' Huizi said, 'When I was walking in the street and a carriage went past with its team of horses, how could I tell if the spirit in me was in the carriage or the carriage was in my spirit?'"

And BTW, it is so very nice to have a thread on something other than Christianity.

 

[firedragon]

I would go so far as to claim that Mahayana is functionally polytheistic, even if its adherents claim otherwise.

Could you explain how they are polytheistic? If you don't mind please.

 

[Glaurung]

Could you explain how they are polytheistic? If you don't mind please.

Years ago, when I was in Singapore, I was exploring the city and I came across a Buddhist temple. I had never been inside a Buddhist temple before so in curiosity I walked in to see what was going on. Inside I saw a large statue of a buddha and worshippers prostrating themselves before it. There were shrines dedicated to various bodhisattvas complete with instructions on how to invoke them for your various needs.

Two minutes inside that temple would disabuse anyone of the notion of Buddhism as an 'atheistic' philosophy concerned with achieving a merely worldly piece of mind. In reality it is a system of worship. It is functionally polytheistic in that it invokes countless spirits (devas, buddhas, bodhisattvas, ect) and it is a religion in that the main goal for most adherents is to acquire spiritual merit and avoid going to Hell.

 

[Twilight Hue]

This may or may not help. I have some experience of the practice of Buddhism, but not too much of the scripture (if that's the right word).

There seems to be a big difference between the approaches of (many, including Buddhism) Eastern religions and say Judaism or Christianity. The latter tend to put a high value on exact interpretation of scripture, believing that if we dive deeply enough into it we will read the mind of God. Eastern religions tend to go for an approach that emphasizes personal experience. The Tao I believe, says of itself that once you try to put it into words you have already lost some of the meaning.

So, is Buddhism theistic? The answer is really "try it for yourself and see what you find".

I think that's a very good approach. You can certainly practice Buddhism while a theist and if the practice is effective enough, you'll find that you will no longer need that designation no more than that of an atheist.

The very first words that were told to me when I engaged Buddhist practices was essentially, "Drop all baggage ye who enters the gateless gate".

 

[firedragon]

Years ago, when I was in Singapore, I was exploring the city and came across a Buddhist temple. I had never been inside a Buddhist temple before so in curiosity I walked in to see what was going on. Inside I saw a large statue of a buddha and worshippers prostrating themselves before it. There were shrines dedicated to various bodhisattvas complete with instructions on how to invoke them for your various needs.

Two minutes inside that temple would disabuse anyone of the notion of Buddhism as an 'atheistic' philosophy concerned with achieving a merely worldly piece of mind. In reality it is a system of worship. It is functionally polytheistic in that it invokes countless spirits (devas, buddhas, bodhisattvas, ect) and it is a religion in that the main goal for most adherents is to acquire spiritual merit and avoid going to Hell.

Thanks a load. Truly appreciate it.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Western Buddhism is mostly watered down and influenced by Western materialism, so of course they'll present it that way. Some of them don't even want to admit it's a religion and just want to say it's a philosophy or even just a self-help tool, which is totally ignorant.

That's not entirely true. Much of it was brought to the west by people like Shunryu Suzuki for instance who originally was just going to maintain the practice for Asian people living here in the country , but it caught on quickly with westerners who arguably had their own flavor of Buddhism flourish as it had throughout Asia and other parts of the world but essentially the practices remained in line with Asian traditions, although Mayahana seems more appealing, albeit Theravada less so here in the west.

I find teachers like Buddhadasa Bikkhu a Theravada monk to be very unusual and particularly so with his publication of the "Handbook for Mankind" which does address the aspect of theism in Buddhism and the effects it has on the religion.

 

[Secret Chief]

Years ago, when I was in Singapore, I was exploring the city and came across a Buddhist temple. I had never been inside a Buddhist temple before so in curiosity I walked in to see what was going on. Inside I saw a large statue of a buddha and worshippers prostrating themselves before it. There were shrines dedicated to various bodhisattvas complete with instructions on how to invoke them for your various needs.

Two minutes inside that temple would disabuse anyone of the notion of Buddhism as an 'atheistic' philosophy concerned with achieving a merely worldly piece of mind. In reality it is a system of worship. It is functionally polytheistic in that it invokes countless spirits (devas, buddhas, bodhisattvas, ect) and it is a religion in that the main goal for most adherents is to acquire spiritual merit and avoid going to Hell.

Making such a generalisation based on one visit to one temple in one country is misleading. Depending on the tradition, the school, the country and the time period one might reasonably describe Buddhism as being atheistic, agnostic, apatheistic, non-theistic, anti-theistic or polytheistic. Something that is considered true in one practice may not be considered so in another. Buddhist philosophy over the centuries is replete with debates and disagreements over various matters. Your last claim - "the main goal for most adherents is to acquire spiritual merit and avoid going to Hell" is something I would expect from an Abrahamic practitioner. In the tradition of Theravada the "goal" is a positive one: to become an arhat/arahant. In the tradition of Mahayana the "goal" is a positive one: to become a bodhisattva.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Years ago, when I was in Singapore, I was exploring the city and came across a Buddhist temple. I had never been inside a Buddhist temple before so in curiosity I walked in to see what was going on. Inside I saw a large statue of a buddha and worshippers prostrating themselves before it. There were shrines dedicated to various bodhisattvas complete with instructions on how to invoke them for your various needs.

Two minutes inside that temple would disabuse anyone of the notion of Buddhism as an 'atheistic' philosophy concerned with achieving a merely worldly piece of mind. In reality it is a system of worship. It is functionally polytheistic in that it invokes countless spirits (devas, buddhas, bodhisattvas, ect) and it is a religion in that the main goal for most adherents is to acquire spiritual merit and avoid going to Hell.

You need to be cognizant that the Buddha isn't worshiped at all, but rather venerated which is where the prostations come into play.

As far as merit goes , that's arguable and it shouldn't even be in Buddhism but rather in Hinduism, which unfortunately has a strong pull and attachment with people so they engaged in dual religions and implemented it into a hybrid which isn't unusual to see happen.

 

[Glaurung]

Making such a generalisation based on one visit to one temple in one country is misleading. Depending on the tradition, the school, the country and the time period one might reasonably describe Buddhism as being atheistic, agnostic, apatheistic, non-theistic, anti-theistic or polytheistic. Something that is considered true in one practice may not be considered so in another. Buddhist philosophy over the centuries is replete with debates and disagreements over various matters.

The fact that I understand terms such as 'bodhisattva' and 'Mahayana' should suggest that my knowledge of Buddhism is more extensive than what could be gained by a single visit to a single temple. Yes, I am aware that Buddhism is not a unified belief system. And I am not actually criticizing Buddhists for believing in the supernatural. I believe in the supernatural. I am criticizing westerners who attempt to present Buddhism as an atheistic, self-help philosophy devoid of supernatural and religious claims.

Your last claim - "the main goal for most adherents is to acquire spiritual merit and avoid going to Hell" is something I would expect from an Abrahamic practitioner. In the tradition of Theravada the "goal" is a positive one: to become an arhat/arahant. In the tradition of Mahayana the "goal" is a positive one: to become a bodhisattva.

Please, the Buddhist tradition has never been shy about contriving torments for the sinner after they die. No, it's not an Abrahamic misunderstanding. I can get straight it from the horse's mouth. For the layperson the goal is merit and a good afterlife/rebirth.

 

[crossfire]

Whatever sentient beings who may or may not dwell within the six realms: they are subject to delusion and are capable of overcoming their delusion via the eightfold path. (Although any within the formless realms won't be able to able to hear the dharma.)

 

[firedragon]

You need to be cognizant that the Buddha isn't worshiped at all, but rather venerated

He is worshiped in many places by many Buddhists. I don't know in which country you live, but he is worshiped, prayed to, supplicated, AND venerated. Although there is no indication he wanted people to.

 

[Twilight Hue]

He is worshiped in many places by many Buddhists. I don't know in which country you live, but he is worshiped, prayed to, supplicated, AND venerated. Although there is no indication he wanted people to.

It's why I refer such as Hinduism in Buddhist drag.

 

[firedragon]

It's why I refer such as Hinduism in Buddhist drag.

Well that's an argument. What ever the cause is, it's true that Buddhists worship the Buddha like a god. I am not saying all Buddhists. If you want to say "some buddhists" that's fine. But a lot of Buddhists do. And that's not a claim of the Buddhist scripture dictating worship, just fact of life. I can also say that's not Buddhism. It's what people do.

Thus, it's false to claim that "buddhists dont worship the Buddha". That's the only point I made in response to your claim.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Well that's an argument. What ever the cause is, it's true that Buddhists worship the Buddha like a god. I am not saying all Buddhists. If you want to say "some buddhists" that's fine. But a lot of Buddhists do. And that's not a claim of the Buddhist scripture dictating worship, just fact of life. I can also say that's not Buddhism. It's what people do.

Thus, it's false to claim that "buddhists dont worship the Buddha". That's the only point I made in response to your claim.

Buddhists individuals might worship a god, but it certainly isn't the practice of Buddhism. Any temple that does, is not a Buddhist temple.

That should clarify it a bit.

 

[firedragon]

Buddhists individuals might worship a god, but it certainly isn't the practice of Buddhism. Any temple that does, is not a Buddhist temple.

That should clarify it a bit.

In my opinion, you are right.

But the discussion is about the Tipitaka, and what it says as described in the OP. Yet I appreciate your response. And I think you are right.