Faith in Christ is Completely Logical

[Robert.Evans]

Serenity7855: "I am looking for someone to stump me on any aspect of Gods marvelous work and wonder to bring to pass the salvation and eternal life of mankind.

Skwim: Satisfy me that keeping others from his big plan of salvation---either by not reveling it to them or sending incompetent messengers to explain it---qualifies as a marvelous work.
Serenity7855

It depends on how you look at it. You appear to be thinking that he is making heaven, as we might think of it now. It was not. There was freewill, hence the fall. That is good. What WE did was bad.

Charlie Brown was good also

 

[Robert.Evans]

I assume by "stump me" you mean you can explain any such aspect to your satisfaction. Not much of a challenge is it. On the other hand, if you're willing to explain any such aspect to the satisfaction of others, then you're on. Satisfy me that keeping others from his big plan of salvation---either by not reveling it to them or sending incompetent messengers to explain it---qualifies as a marvelous work.

I think you are also speaking of after the fall, aren't you?

 

[viole]

May I suggest that you read up on the subject matter before continuing. What Robert is saying is perfectly accurate and correct. A third of the host of heaven was expelled from heaven because they wanted the plan that Satan put forward to be actioned. All of them disagreed with the. Plan of Redemption. Those spirit now dwell on earth tempting and influence us to do evil.

May I also suggest you read the posts more carefully?

Robert was addressing the percentage of people on earth who believe. 2 thirds believers vs. one third agnotics or atheists.

No mention of hosts in heaven, fallen angels, Satan or things of the sort. I wonder how you inferred that from his posts.

Unless you have evidence of the contrary, of course.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Robert.Evans]

May I also suggest you read the posts more carefully?

Robert was addressing the percentage of people on earth who believe. 2 thirds believers vs. one third agnotics or atheists.

No mention of hosts in heaven, fallen angels, Satan or things of the sort. I wonder how you inferred that from his posts.

Unless you have evidence of the contrary, of course.

Ciao

- viole

I think perhaps that he is cleverer than I

 

[viole]

Yes, have you read the bible or considered the Plan of Redemption. I am sorry, however, to pose such a question indicates a serious lack of knowledge about the subject matter that you are here debating.

Perfect, so to speak. So you can explain it to me as you would do to someone who cannot read and you wish her to understand.

But that does not address my question. Can something perfect, become imperfect? Suppose it did not become imperfect. In this case it would have been better than the fomer, rendering, therefore, the former imperfect.

This is simple logic really. Perfection cannot be, by definition, improved. Not even potentially.

Your car is not a living organism with a spirit.

So, only living organisms with a spirit (whatever that is) can possibly be perfect?

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

It is, you just refuse to accept it.

Well, I have usually fun to attack such evidence. But this is not the real thread. If you want, you can start a new one where we can rationally scrutinize this evidence.

Here the claim is that Christianity is rational. Not a fuzzy and generic belief in God. And my counter claim is that if it is rational, then pastafarianism or jediism are rational too.

It is true to them. So what?

So, it is rational to be a jediist?

But now you are giving an argument for God... haha

I don't see how. But maybe you can expand on that.

I do not know what they believe. Care to tell me, in short?

Pastafarians = belief that God has the form and shape of a Flying Spaghetti Monster

Jediism = belief that... Well, I am sure you know Star Wars.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Serenity7855]

The Jews set up 613 rules, not God

Nice one.

 

[Skwim]

I think you are also speaking of after the fall, aren't you?

Besides A&E who else was there before the fall? So yes, after the fall if you're so inclined to believe there was one. .

 

[IndigoStorm]

I spent many, many years trying to disprove religion and faith. Frankly, most religions are build upon the interpretations and logic of men, who do, by nature, fall short of the glory of God, thus their doctrines are susceptible to being flawed as well. So religions are easy to disprove, and that is not just a handful, that is all of them. So when we see our coequals, on the other side of the fence, rubbing their hands together in glee, taunting us with the words that religions are slowly fading from our world, we can take solice in the fact that we are best rid of them anyway, none of have authority to act in the name of God. To disprove them is a little like using the scientific method. You have to simply be familiar with the scriptures, which give us and insight to the character and will of God, and have god knowledge of the Plan of Redemption. Like science there are set constants and laws that cannot be change. By those laws we can know what is true and what is false. If the contravene a principle or commandment then they are false.

For example, I listen to a testimony of a man who died and was revived. He gave a detailed account of what happened to him whilst he was dead. A very convincing account as well, but for one detail that exposed it as a fraud, or the source was dubious. He said that he found himself in the presence of God. Now, anyone who knows scriptures would know that it is impossible for a Spirit to be in the presence of God, pre-judgement. Anyone who is familiar with the Plan of Salvation would also know that his claim was fallacious. The Plan of Salvation is like a jig saw puzzle with every piece being unique. Many of our religions have some of the pieces, however, none of them have all the pieces. To disprove them is just a matter of looking at the pieces to see if they are all there. I have yet to find a religion that has all the pieces.

To clarify when I say religion I am referring to denominations in the Christian faith.

Now faith and our personal relationship with God is another story. It cannot be faulted in anyway or form. To be converted by the Holy Ghost, who opens the gates to the pure knowledge of the Plan of Redemption, and to receive that knowledge in all humility and faith in Christ, is to make yourself impervious to the fiery darts of Satan. So, in essence, I am throwing down the gauntlet to anyone who thinks they can disprove the logic of the Plan that was devised by God and accepted by Christ. I am looking for miss-shaped jig saw puzzle pieces that do to fit making the finished picture ugly instead of magnificent to behold. I am looking for someone to stump me on any aspect of Gods marvelous work and wonder to bring to pass the salvation and eternal life of mankind. If it cannot be done then even the disbelieved must concede that it is a rational and logical plan.

Your looooooooooong thread immediately falls short here ...

You have to simply be familiar with the scriptures, which give us and insight to the character and will of God, and have god knowledge of the Plan of Redemption.

The "scriptures" were all written by mortals long after the event and have no basis in reality at all.

 

[Skwim]

It depends on how you look at it. You appear to be thinking that he is making heaven, as we might think of it now. It was not. There was freewill, hence the fall. That is good. What WE did was bad.

Charlie Brown was good also

Not seeing the relevance to my point. And just as a FYI, I don't buy the notion of freewill.

 

[Serenity7855]

I think perhaps that he is cleverer than I

Au contraire, you are by far the better debater. I read everything you post in anticipation.

 

[Serenity7855]

Your looooooooooong thread immediately falls short here ...

You have to simply be familiar with the scriptures, which give us and insight to the character and will of God, and have god knowledge of the Plan of Redemption.

The "scriptures" were all written by mortals long after the event and have no basis in reality at all.

Perhaps you can provide some evidence to support your claim that they have no basis in reality as the claim runs contrary to historical evidences and antiquities of Christ

Indeed, the scriptures were written by mortal men but God selected and compiled them. What it contains is exactly what God wants for it to contain making it the literal word of God.

 

[IndigoStorm]

Perhaps you can provide some evidence to support your claim that they have no basis in reality as the claim runs contrary to historical evidences and antiquities of Christ

Indeed, the scriptures were written by mortal men but God selected and compiled them. What it contains is exactly what God wants for it to contain making it the literal word of God.

Indeed, the scriptures were written by mortal men but God selected and compiled them. What it contains is exactly what God wants for it to contain making it the literal word of God.


You see? You ask me to provide evidence, yet you write that God selected & compiled the scriptures.

Give me evidence that this is so.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Well, I have usually fun to attack such evidence. But this is not the real thread. If you want, you can start a new one where we can rationally scrutinize this evidence.

Here the claim is that Christianity is rational. Not a fuzzy and generic belief in God. And my counter claim is that if it is rational, then pastafarianism or jediism are rational too.

So, it is rational to be a jediist?
I don't see how. But maybe you can expand on that.
Pastafarians = belief that God has the form and shape of a Flying Spaghetti Monster

Jediism = belief that... Well, I am sure you know Star Wars.

Ciao

- viole

Ok, so the FSM and Star Wars... haha. I did not know that is what they were. Very funny. I think Star Wars is a film, so it is hard to see that it can be taken seriously. (I can't believe I'm debating this) and to my knowledge, spagetti cannot fly. Now, in all serousness, perhaps there is another realm and another world where they can. Perhaps all things there are made of spagetti. But in this one, no.
The fundamental idea of God is to say that something exists that is primordial and archetypal before all other things, and that this 'thing' is or has sufficient energy to make everything we see around us. That is a very basic idea. Whereas something coming out of a tin does nothing accept sit on a plate. I know you see the difference. But you are saying that I can't diprove the one as you can't disprove God. But there is more to it than that. I hope you can see that. It is not a stretch of the imagination to think that there could be something that brings into being everything, and yet we cannot see it. That is the essence of the big bang is it not? That is not from spaghetti.
You must also consider that without intelligence (God) then you are ultimately relying on luck. And that just does not work, as much as people like to think it will. Nothing complex appears by luck in this universe. If you throw a pile of bricks out of a plane, you would not expect to see a house when it landed on earth. It never would. To form that, there has to be some guiding principle or process.

This is a big subject, and i feel you are not interested in it, as you think you already know. The underlying problem also with ''this'' subject is, if he does not open your eyes, it matters not what I say, you still won't believe. It is not like a normal subject. Now I suppose I am ranbling.

Let me leave you with this if you wish to discuss: At the beginning of it all, by necessity, there has to be something. (something is just a word to describe anything in its broadest terms) do you agree with that statement?

 

[Robert.Evans]

You said:

There was a time when only few thought that the world consisted of indivisible atoms. They could not prove it either. Does that entail that they were stupid? Actually, even more stupid, by making a positive claim?

Does that not work for the concept of God?? Just because one cannot prove it, does not mean it is not so. God proves it, not man.

 

[Robert.Evans]

The "scriptures" were all written by mortals long after the event and have no basis in reality at all.

Long time after.... no

 

[Robert.Evans]

Au contraire, you are by far the better debater. I read everything you post in anticipation.

haha.... now you make me nervous. I shall be worried about offending you now.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Indeed, the scriptures were written by mortal men but God selected and compiled them. What it contains is exactly what God wants for it to contain making it the literal word of God.


You see? You ask me to provide evidence, yet you write that God selected & compiled the scriptures.

Give me evidence that this is so.

We shall all be taught by God, we shall all be taught by the Holy Spirit. NT. They were carried along by the Spirit, divinely inspired. And before you comment, Yes, that is evidence, even if you don't wish to accept it. Anything that leads one to a conclusion about something is, by definition, evidence

 

[Robert.Evans]

Besides A&E who else was there before the fall? So yes, after the fall if you're so inclined to believe there was one. .

Well... you seem to be saying that everything should be perfect, and yet you are speaking of after the fall, which would not be. So I don't understand your position. The world is not perfect. God is perfect.

 

[viole]

You said:

Does that not work for the concept of God?? Just because one cannot prove it, does not mean it is not so. God proves it, not man.

So, are you going to revise your original statement that a belief held by a strict minority of people does not entail stupidity or being necessarily wrong?

Ciao

- viole