Faith in Christ is Completely Logical

[Dr. Strange]

I am unable to answer this question. I'm not really sure what you're asking. I'm left wondering, which men? Which perceptions? Perceptions of what in particular?
What in creation did God change by involving Godhood? When did God change creation? And what is evident to which men? The question seems straight forward enough, I just can't make any sense of it. Can you ask it in a different manner, or be more specific? I just don't get it, sorry.

Man does not comprehend God. Anything that man perceives (perception) is because our experience is existential; man knows nothing about God.

God changed nothing. My point is that if God is perfect (man's perception) then God's Creation is also perfect, not needing change.

Specifics are in the wording. If I quote Tillich, Aquinas then, the specifics are within their writings. Words I choose reference those specifics. I've posted enough that you can begin to put together what I mean.

For instance:

Faith is not a belief. (Tillich, Aquinas, Augustine; "Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe."). Faith defined from the beginning of Christianity to today's understanding of theology.

"To start with we ask whether there is a God, and if so, in what way he exists, or rather in what ways he does not exist." Summa Theologiae, ed., Timothy McDermott, p. 9. Atheism and Christian ask the same questions.

Which men? All men.

Learning Algebra was foreign to me. I did not understand it. Today, Calculus is even more difficult. Something gets in the way, understanding, education. What gets in your way must be a lack of information regarding those things I've posted.

"An awareness of God, though neither clear nor specific, exists in practically everyone, Some people think this is because it is self-evident. Others, with more truth, think natural use of reason leads men straight[]away to some sort of knowledge of God: for when men observe the sure and ordered course that things pursue by nature, most people see that rule cannot exist without a ruler and the somebody must be producing the order they observe. Such thought, however, is not yet specific enough for men to know whether only one such ruler exists. Compare what happens when we observe the movements and actions of what happens when we observe the movements and actions of human beings, and see that in men there must exist some cause of such behaviour that doesn't exist in other things; we proceed to call it soul though as yet we don't know what it is (whether perhaps it is bodily) or how it operates. . . . " (Thomas Aquinas). Summa Theologiae, ed., Timothy McDermott, 9.

Are you still in the dark?

 

[Dr. Strange]

I have heard many testimonies. I wouldnt say it is logical to have faith in any of them, even if they do come with a story guide.

When it comes to faith, I agree with you.

 

[Sapiens]

Great. Ironically I'm not really interested in your criticisms of my beliefs.

'fraid you might actually learn something? Naw ... you're way past learning anything, we all recognize that.

 

[Sapiens]

"Any scientific theory must be based on a careful and rational examination of the facts. In the scientific method, there is a clear distinction between facts, which can be observed and/or measured, and theories, which are scientists’ explanations and interpretations of the facts. Scientists can have various interpretations of the outcomes of experiments and observations, but the facts, which are the cornerstone of the scientific method, do not change."
"A theory must include statements that have observational consequences. A good theory, like Newton’s theory of gravity, has unity, which means it consists of a limited number of problem-solving strategies that can be applied to a wide range of scientific circumstances. Another feature of a good theory is that it formed from a number of hypotheses that can be tested independently."
"A scientific theory is not the end result of the scientific method; theories can be proven or rejected, just like hypotheses. Theories can be improved or modified as more information is gathered so that the accuracy of the prediction becomes greater over time."
What is a Scientific Theory? | Definition of Theory

Is the Big Crunch a cosmological theory?
Is the Big Freeze a cosmological theory?
What about the Big Rip? Is that a theory?
Which of these are scientific theories, and which are not?

Not my field, but I believe that they all carry the status of hypothesis.

 

[Robert.Evans]

okay



I agree. God in my opinion is not simple at all, not by our standards, and not by a long shot. I do not believe in some thing called a singularity that is somehow a separate thing from God.

I don't mean it like that if that is what I said. The Singularity is God, but in such a simple form that we would not recognise it. As all things come from God, then it can also be said that we are within that also, just as we are part of the big bang

In my estimation, if there were ever such a thing as a singularity, that would be God.

agreed

It is possible that all that now exists in this universe came out of Him. But I honestly don't know much of anything. For all I know, everything is God.

yes

We are a creation of God, body and spirit. We may be in the image of a God that is also body and spirit. But it really doesn't matter. All we need to do is live and love, be honest and genuine, be giving and caring, and compassionate towards one another, and I believe God will be pleased with us. Who did Christ die for? It was not for those who do God's will. He died for those who do not. He died for sinners, no one else.

agreed... good

Again, I agree.



All this is like trying to study a beautiful flower in order to know everything we can possibly know about that beautiful flower. We prod it, we poke it. We subject it to horrible conditions to see how it responds, and we cut it into pieces so that we can see exactly how it works, and when we're finished, the beautiful flower is dead.

haha.... I should tidy up a bit then Good analogy.

I go with intelligence, awareness, and understanding.

Quite so. Most of us agree, but it is when we get down to the detail that the disagreements comes in. But as you say, no matter.

 

[Robert.Evans]

So your god plays no part in the accidental cutting off of a limb or it being crushed in a car-wreck or some such and then amputated? It's all good, all part of your god's plan, so there's not need to ever go back and fix it? But your god's not quite as on the ball when it comes to salamanders? Need to be able to fix errors in omnipotence there, eh?

It is evolving consciousness... what you see is what you get.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Hey, you guys are good, you can even construct mountains out of nothing what-so-ever.

Haha, I thought that was what science did! Everything from nothing... laughable... now comes the definition of ''nothing'' I suppose..

 

[Robert.Evans]

Back to the OP - First you prove that Russell's teapot doesn't exist and then I'll put some effort into your challenge.

There is no comparison in that argument. It shows how little you know. Shame.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Thinking

Evolving, then thinking

 

[Robert.Evans]

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“If you are saying that it is possible that the universe comes from something simple, then why would it ever bring about life?”

It is an evolving consciousness. It becomes cleverer

You go on to mention, “Chaos.” I have to ask, “Why is not life, as a complex existence, not be considered as a form of chaos? Life fluctuates, pulses just like the universe. Life and death. Wars and disasters.

it is a form of, but I was speaking of something far more primordail, before the universe began

Above all else, you ask, “why does it form into something complex that works?” Why does, what works?

Everything. A universe with planets stars life etc It works.

Do you mean to say that man's ability to think, to bring order is not chaos? What is order for Americans once is now questionable whereas politically and Christian thinking divides the American way, drawing partisan groups further apart. Government fails to get done government and, we may never again understand what order is unless structured like China or the Russia. Chaos exist because it is Creation.

I am not talking about politics

Further, it is Christian. Life and death and then the resurrection of Jesus “as the Christ” (Tillich). Man's perception.

??

If the universe pulses, the Big Bang to collapses, the universe pulses again. Stars are born and stars die. Why is chaos not the norm.

true chaos does not bring about anything, that is why it is chaos. There has to be some sort of organising principle.

Suffering and understanding suffering is Christian. Christianity cannot deny that is their lot. Christianity is man's perception. The Bible, man's perception.

It is of God, one of the same with man

Perception, a hope, an order. Without which, as my wife asks, “What then is our purpose?” Her answer to her question was and is, “Life is circular.” My answer is, “What man calls God, Spirit, becomes our “ultimate concern” (Tillich). Again, man's perception.

I don't fully understand what you're saying here. Everything is an evolving consciousness, it is fractal, holographic, and is divine, coming from God, as all things are and do. Simple to complex.

 

[Robert.Evans]

All that is said above is still man's perception. Not your God's. Christianity is man's perception. Jesus was a revolutionary. He was Jewish. Jesus was not Christian and if one attempts to understand the Early Church one sees that what we call Christianity is just man's perception and, not Jesus' perception. What we call the NT was written long after any of Jesus' disciples. What did Jesus teach? The OT and what they did not understand then. Man made Jesus, Christ.

It was not written long after he died. False idea. Man is just the lower form of consciousness which ultimately becomes what we think of God. So there is some wisdom in your words, even if you don't mean it that way.

 

[Robert.Evans]

One has to ask, in respect to man's perception of things, if God is perfect, why would God change Creation by involving Godhood in what is evident to man a perfect Creation?

Because what you speak of as ''God'' is the One, the first the Origin. What we are really speaking of is a God of a God etc, which is fractal and not quite the same

 

[Robert.Evans]

I have heard many testimonies. I wouldnt say it is logical to have faith in any of them, even if they do come with a story guide.

It is more logical than luck and magic bringing everything into being

 

[Robert.Evans]

Well, science knows that Einstein was not 100% accurate. But then, that is what science is all about.

That depends on what scientist you are listening to and what the subject is. They can be dogmatic also.

New truths come with every moment of Creation. Life and death. Does time end for you when your death finalizes your life, your spirit? If not, does your spirit, life cease to exist temporally or/and before time and space? What you may refer to as God. Is time, as experienced by you where you live the same time for someone half way around the world? Or is time relevant to each, differently? With Creation, time begins. Before Creation, time did not exist.

time is relative. There is time before what we consider to be time

Time, although not in any sense of the definition, is not matter. But time helps to define matter and energy. Force, is an interaction between two objects. The force between two objects is what matter is all about. The Big Bang, hypothesized as a result of two random particles coming from or, out of nothing. That moment is the beginning of time. How many times has the clock been started?

Many. Infinite. Back to a Monadic Singularity- God.

 

[Robert.Evans]

As I said Robert, it was proven more than 150 years ago. We may as well have a 'debate' about whether or not the moon is made from cheese.

And as I say, it was not ''I'' that said it. Sapiens said it.. a scientist.

 

[Robert.Evans]

So what Robert? Your God is not observable either - what on earth is your point?

You will have to start the conversation again, if you wish to discuss it properly. God is visible everywhere. You just don't see him.

 

[Robert.Evans]

That statement is just gibberish mate - I'm amazed that you got likes for posting a comment that is so pointlessly misguided. The bar is set so low for you guys.


Well then, if it is possible for God to create the Universe, we should be able to repeat it. Let's see you do that. Or if you can't, show me someone who can.

You are speaking of something that is far farther away and grander than just a big bang which is in our universe.
Your discussions don't make much sense.

 

[Robert.Evans]

ha

LOL Idle not idol

haha... #771

 

[Robert.Evans]

Lots of things are created without intent, the Grand Canyon, the Mississippi River, the Island of Hawaii, the moon, just to mention a few.

That is an assumption from ignorance.

 

[Bunyip]

You are speaking of something that is far farther away and grander than just a big bang which is in our universe.
Your discussions don't make much sense.

That is a poor ad hominem attack.