Faith in Christ is Completely Logical

[savagewind]

Whenever a message flies through the air from one juction box to another is it real? I mean is it real while it is flying?

 

[NulliuSINverba]

Created--> Creator. There is a Rolex, by implication.

Why must you resort to such an apples-'n-oranges comparison? Watches are demonstrably man-made. The universe is not demonstrably man-made.

The comparison is without merit.

 

[NulliuSINverba]

Am I suppose to pretend you care?

No. You're supposed to pretend that YOU care.

...

I'd have thought that much was obvious.

 

[savagewind]

No. You're supposed to pretend that YOU care.

...

I'd have thought that much was obvious.

Do you hear yourself?

 

[Cephus]

But how are they trying to do that? We have an argument which is metaphyical not physical, so what objective evidence are you expecting to see. The outer evidence is not sufficient on its own as the very thing we speak of, God, we cannot see. That is the bottom line: you can't see God so think that there isn't one. But you are not going to see God are you, so why the argument for the kind of evidence you ask for, evidence which would be proof! The best evidence you can except is a believer, as they are living witnesses...... to ignore, whether you believe in all that they say or not, is to ignore millions of people. Again this should make one stop and ponder.... not just dismiss. It is too much reliance on science which has blinded people to think that it can solve all things, which it will not. Science is limited. Period.

But that's the problem, you're starting with a position you cannot justify and demanding that it is so. You cannot demonstrate that there is any such thing as the metaphysical. You cannot demonstrate that there is any such thing as the supernatural. You're just making this stuff up, or at the very least, taking other people who made it up seriously, because you have an emotional attachment to the concepts, concepts that you have never taken a step back and personally verified. Then you stomp your feet and say "I'm right, so there!" Whether you like it or not, you can't see God either. You're like the people who were enamored by the Emperor's non-existent clothing because you don't want to believe that he'd parade around naked so the clothes must be there. You refuse to open your eyes and actually verify it for yourself.

They are not empty, they are real, more real than you and I put together... it is just you who cannot see it.

Magic is real! It's more real than you and I put together! So there!

The answer is given. It is God who opens the eyes not man. It is the inner witness which is real, not the world, not the argument. Any outer evidence is only relative to the one who has eyes to see. You do not understand this argument because you are of the world. I know how hard it was for me to understand the Bible (and still am doing) what hope you? None. Even if I tell you everything I know it does not mean that you will agree, only that you understand English. Your mind, I am sorry to say, is closed/. I cannot open it.... your heart has to be right with God.

Says who? All you're doing is parroting the party line, you're not actually saying anything that makes any sense. How do you know these things? You don't. You just have blind faith. And when people ask you what that faith is based on, you have no answers so you just keep repeating the same old tired nonsense over and over and over again. It's all you do. It's all you have.

If you are going to look at physical things, then I suggest you look at the ridiculous odds of this universe even being here in the first place, and the fact that it is supposed to have come about naturally! What does that mean anyway? If all things are natural, then what is everything??? All things then come from some form of energy (if we can call it that) that has to evolve from chaos into something with form and order. HOW? The answer is with luck and a sprinkle of magic. Why? Because you do not have intelligence because you don't think there is a God. I find it hard to imagine that anyone can accept that is ''just happens'' but this is the nonsense I keep hearing all the time, ''it is natural'', ''I don't know, but it isn't God''. Won't do. You need to think of the whole, not just the parts.

You have no way of knowing what the odds are because we have only a single example of a universe. It is impossible to determine the odds of anything with a data set of one. That just shows that you have never bothered to think about it for yourself, you just parrot the apologists who are relying on the ignorance and gullibility of their audience to keep buying books and sending money.

This isn't a matter of "I don't know but it isn't God", it's "I don't know". Full stop. I don't know. I'm willing to look and find the truth. I am not going to make something up that I wish was true and pretend that I've found the truth. That's what you've done. You claim knowledge but you've demonstrated no means of actually acquiring that knowledge. You've shown no interest in actually testing your claims of knowledge. You just magically "know" because you don't know what the heck knowledge actually is. It's not just blind assertions and fanatical faith. It's actually having the guts to go out and find out and only accept things that are actually demonstrated in some real, objective fashion.

Neither of us know. I at least have the guts to admit it.

 

[savagewind]

The words that go from one phone to another phone through the air are real. HOW? How can you believe in phone messages but not believe intelligence can exist outside of this universe?

 

[NulliuSINverba]

Do you hear yourself?

All I "hear" is You Not Responding To The Questions. May I remind you that you were the one who made the statement that prompted them?

Is there something about the questions themselves that are preventing you from answering them? Were they not framed in terms simple enough for you?

If there are any obstacles to answering them that you haven't brought with you, let me know. I'd be happy to accommodate any special needs you may have.

 

[savagewind]

All I "hear" is You Not Responding To The Questions. May I remind you that you were the one who made the statement that prompted them?

Is there something about the questions themselves that are preventing you from answering them? Were they not framed in terms simple enough for you?

If there are any obstacles to answering them that you haven't brought with you, let me know. I'd be happy to accommodate any special needs you may have.

I didn't make the statement that prompted them. The guy with the water bucket did. Ask him.

 

[savagewind]

I don't play cat and mouse.

 

[savagewind]

All I "hear" is You Not Responding To The Questions. May I remind you that you were the one who made the statement that prompted them?

.

I can be civil. Use post #1343 and #1348 for the answer. OK?

 

[Serenity7855]

Question #1: Is a non-physical god any less nonsensical? Please explain. Thanks.
Question #2: Is a non-physical god able to interact with reality in a physical way? If so, please explain.
Question #3: Is "physical non-existence" better than actual existence? Please explain.

Thanks.

How do you expect any Christian, who lives by faith, to know that. Nobody could know that. Savagewind may believe that he is spirit, and that is fine, as that is how he see Him. I think he has a body of flesh and bones based on what Jesus said to Thomas when he asked him to touch him and said does a spirit have flesh and bones, but I do not know that for a surety as I have never seen him. Only if I gain exaltation will I ever know. It is you question that is not only nonsensical but it is a non sequitur. It is not relevant to our salvation.

 

[Cephus]

How do you expect any Christian, who lives by faith, to know that. Nobody could know that. Savagewind may believe that he is spirit, and that is fine, as that is how he see Him. I think he has a body of flesh and bones based on what Jesus said to Thomas when he asked him to touch him and said does a spirit have flesh and bones, but I do not know that for a surety as I have never seen him. Only if I gain exaltation will I ever know. It is you question that is not only nonsensical but it is a non sequitur. It is not relevant to our salvation.

But you claim it anyhow, that's the problem. Neither you nor Savagewind nor any other theist on these forums has any demonstrable, rational reason to believe what you believe or claim what you claim, that doesn't stop you from doing so. You have a book that you want to believe but you have no objective evidence to support it and then you base all of your claims on the irrational belief that said book is actually true and worthwhile.

Can you see why people who don't take this book seriously might have a problem with your claims?

 

[savagewind]

I don't believe in God because of a book. I believed in God before I read the book.

 

[Cephus]

I don't believe in God because of a book. I believed in God before I read the book.

But there's no way to get to God without the book. God, a proper name for a specific deity, only comes from that particular book.

 

[savagewind]

But there's no way to get to God without the book. God, a proper name for a specific deity, only comes from that particular book.

I don't know what that means. I know The God I believe in has a name because of the Bible books. Is that what you mean? Obviously the writers of the books did not have THE BOOK, but they believed.

 

[Bunyip]

Chaos is chaos. Chaos that orders is something else. You can't see that?

See what? You mean like how snowflakes just form themselves?

 

[Cephus]

I don't know what that means. I know The God I believe in has a name because of the Bible books. Is that what you mean? Obviously the writers of the books did not have THE BOOK, but they believed.

But you have no way of knowing if what they believed was actually true, any more than you have any evidence that the God you believe in actually exists. It makes you feel good to think so, you've taken the stories in a book of ancient mythology seriously, but beyond that, you've really got nothing.

 

[Serenity7855]

But that's the problem, you're starting with a position you cannot justify and demanding that it is so. You cannot demonstrate that there is any such thing as the metaphysical. You cannot demonstrate that there is any such thing as the supernatural. You're just making this stuff up, or at the very least, taking other people who made it up seriously, because you have an emotional attachment to the concepts, concepts that you have never taken a step back and personally verified. Then you stomp your feet and say "I'm right, so there!" Whether you like it or not, you can't see God either. You're like the people who were enamored by the Emperor's non-existent clothing because you don't want to believe that he'd parade around naked so the clothes must be there. You refuse to open your eyes and actually verify it for yourself.

How do you explain the process of a single thought. The feeling of love, hatred or empathy. What is a thought? How does matter retain so much memory and knowledge. Science can pin point the area in which it happens, and even prescribe medication to make you happy instead of sad, but nobody knows how a concept is formed, by neurons and electro chemical reactions. Not and clue. For all intents and purposes, it is miraculous. No naturalistic laws that exist can be used to give an explanation of how we rationalise and use cognitive thinking to be aware of our being, or involving conscious intellectual activity (as thinking, reasoning, or remembering). If it cannot be explained by naturalistic laws then it becomes supernatural. Ah, I hear the cry of the atheist trying to excuse themselves by saying that just because it is not natural does not make it supernatural. They are wrong, as as usual, in an attempt to try to defend there bigoted views.

supernatural

adjective

1. 1.
   (of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.
   "a supernatural being"
   synonyms: paranormal, psychic, magic, magical, occult, mystic, mystical,miraculous, superhuman, supernormal, hypernormal,extramundane;
   inexplicable, uncanny, unaccountable, unbelievable,non-rational, weird, mysterious, arcane

So, quite clearly, when you say "You cannot demonstrate that there is any such thing as the supernatural." You are demonstrably incorrect as I just have. That also make you wrong on this statement as well. "You cannot demonstrate that there is any such thing as the metaphysical." As if I can demonstrate that abstract phenomenon is supernatural it follows that it must be metaphysical as well. You are just being superfluous by using both terms.

I could, of course, expand it to the cause of the Big Bang, Fine Tuning, Dark Energy, Photosynthesis, Ecosystems, Dark Matter and the Higgs Boson, all of which are known but not understood phenomenon, or, metaphysical.

Now, I can see God in all of these unexplained events, yet you announce that "you can't see God". The truth is that you cannot see God. Only those who live a Christ centred life can see God's hand in everything around us. You do not believe and you refuse to see so you will never possess what we have until you wake up and feel the grass between your toes.

James 1:5-6

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.


3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the btruth of all things.[/QUOTE]

 

[savagewind]

But you have no way of knowing if what they believed was actually true, any more than you have any evidence that the God you believe in actually exists. It makes you feel good to think so, you've taken the stories in a book of ancient mythology seriously, but beyond that, you've really got nothing.

It makes me feel good to think so? Why, HOW, could you, would you say that? You do not know that. Do you think it? Do you believe it? WHY?

 

[Bunyip]

How do you explain the process of a single thought. The feeling of love, hatred or empathy. What is a thought? How does matter retain so much memory and knowledge. Science can pin point the area in which it happens, and even prescribe medication to make you happy instead of sad but nobody knows how and concept is formed by neuron and electro chemical reactions. Not and clue. For andll inlets and purposes, it is miraculous. No naturalistic laws that we know off can be used to give andll explanation of how we rationalise and use cognitive as aware of being, or involving conscious intellectual activity (as thinking, reasoning, or remembering). If it cannot be explained by naturalistic laws then it is supernatural. Ah, I hear the cry of the atheist trying to excuse the self by saying that just because it is not natural does not make it supernatural. They are wrong, as as usual, try to defend there bigoted views.

That is just an argument from personal incredulity, a 'God of the gaps' fallacy. Saying, 'unless you can explain (such and such).......' is neither evidence, nor an argument,

supernatural

adjective

1. 1.
   (of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.
   "a supernatural being"
   synonyms: paranormal, psychic, magic, magical, occult, mystic, mystical,miraculous, superhuman, supernormal, hypernormal,extramundane;
   inexplicable, uncanny, unaccountable, unbelievable,non-rational, weird, mysterious, arcane

So, quite clearly, when you say "You cannot demonstrate that there is any such thing as the supernatural." You are demonstrably incorrect as I just have. That also make you wrong on this statement as well. "
You cannot demonstrate that there is any such thing as the metaphysical." As if I can demonstrate that abstract phenomenon is supernatural it follows that it must be metaphysical as well. You are just being superfluous by using both terms.

I could, of course, expand it to the cause of the Big Bang, Fine Tuning, Dark Energy, Photosynthesis, our Ecosystem, Dark Matter and the Higgs Boson, all of which are known but not understood phenomenon, or, metaphysical. Now, I can see God in all of these unexplained events, yet you announce that "you can't see God". The truth is that you cannot see God. Only those who live a Christ centred life can see God's hand in everything around us. You do not believe and you refuse to see so you will never possess what we have until you wake up and feel the grass between your toes.

James 1:5-6

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.


3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the btruth of all things.

[/QUOTE]