Faith in Christ is Completely Logical

[Bunyip]

Just had a look at the article on end times prophecies, loved the one about nobody knowing when Jesus will return (Mathew 24 36-37) that claims the 'prophecy' to have been fulfilled many times - because people had got the dates for Jesus' return wrong many times. LOL.

So a prophecy saying that nobody knows when 'X' happens is counted as fulfilled. Wonderful!

 

[Bunyip]

So you're not saying that God, who supposedly inspired the Bible and is supposedly omniscient, didn't know? And since the end times haven't happened yet, no prophecies predicting them mean a thing. People have been claiming the end times are imminent for thousands of years, it hasn't happened yet. What good are prophecies if they don't actually predict anything?

No no noooo! They accurately predicted that nobody will know when it is the end times apparently.

 

[Serenity7855]

I don't have to know it, all I have to know is that you don't know it. You act like you're rationally justified in believing any load of cockamamie nonsense you want, just because you've designed it in such a way that it's beyond objective evaluation.



Nope, not a single one that will stand up to any kind of evaluation. It would need to be demonstrably written before the fact, be specific to refer only to a single possible event and not be open to purposely being fulfilled by people looking for it to occur. Nothing in the Bible does that.

Try again.

When Men’s Hearts Fail

As evidenced by the violence, atrocities, wars, famine, devastation, and destructive forces of nature reported by the media each day, we are obviously living in the time of great confusion predicted by the Lord when he said, “And in that day … the whole earth shall be in commotion, and men’s hearts shall fail them”. When men’s hearts fail, deep anxieties ensue that can cause us to lose self-confidence, which is vital to our success. Ours is a time when the loving support of friends and associates is critical.

When Men’s Hearts Fail - New Era July 1987 - new-era

26 And in that day shall be heard of wars and rumors of wars, and the whole earth shall be in commotion, and men’s hearts shall fail them, and they shall say that Christ delayethhis coming until the end of the earth.

Heart disease 'on the increase'

The number of people suffering from heart disease is rising, according to latest statistics.

The British Heart Foundation (BHF) revealed one in eight people have heart disease - a 5% increase since 1989.

BBC NEWS | Health | Heart disease 'on the increase'

 

[Bunyip]

When Men’s Hearts Fail

As evidenced by the violence, atrocities, wars, famine, devastation, and destructive forces of nature reported by the media each day, we are obviously living in the time of great confusion predicted by the Lord when he said, “And in that day … the whole earth shall be in commotion, and men’s hearts shall fail them”. When men’s hearts fail, deep anxieties ensue that can cause us to lose self-confidence, which is vital to our success. Ours is a time when the loving support of friends and associates is critical.

When Men’s Hearts Fail - New Era July 1987 - new-era

26 And in that day shall be heard of wars and rumors of wars, and the whole earth shall be in commotion, and men’s hearts shall fail them, and they shall say that Christ delayethhis coming until the end of the earth.

Heart disease 'on the increase'

The number of people suffering from heart disease is rising, according to latest statistics.

The British Heart Foundation (BHF) revealed one in eight people have heart disease - a 5% increase since 1989.

BBC NEWS | Health | Heart disease 'on the increase'

Sure mate. The problem is that people have been saying that for 2000 years or more. It is the one prediction with a perfect 100% failure rate.

Life expectancy by the way has tripled. Heart disease is worse because we live past our 30's.

 

[fantome profane]

When Men’s Hearts Fail

As evidenced by the violence, atrocities, wars, famine, devastation, and destructive forces of nature reported by the media each day, we are obviously living in the time of great confusion predicted by the Lord when he said, “And in that day … the whole earth shall be in commotion, and men’s hearts shall fail them”. When men’s hearts fail, deep anxieties ensue that can cause us to lose self-confidence, which is vital to our success. Ours is a time when the loving support of friends and associates is critical.

When Men’s Hearts Fail - New Era July 1987 - new-era

26 And in that day shall be heard of wars and rumors of wars, and the whole earth shall be in commotion, and men’s hearts shall fail them, and they shall say that Christ delayethhis coming until the end of the earth.

Heart disease 'on the increase'

The number of people suffering from heart disease is rising, according to latest statistics.

The British Heart Foundation (BHF) revealed one in eight people have heart disease - a 5% increase since 1989.

BBC NEWS | Health | Heart disease 'on the increase'

 

[Cephus]

No no noooo! They accurately predicted that nobody will know when it is the end times apparently.

A prediction that hasn't come to pass isn't a prediction, it's a guess.

 

[Serenity7855]

Neither did God. There is no evidence God had anything to do with the writing of the Bible, that was the work of men. Blind faith is not evidence. Neither is there a single historical find at all that proves God is a factual entity. Nobody can show that God has made a single philosophical claim because no one can show that God actually exists.

You are confusing blind faith with demonstrable fact. They are not the same.

Neither did God. There is no evidence God had anything to do with the writing of the Bible, that was the work of men. Blind faith is not evidence. Neither is there a single historical find at all that proves God is a factual entity. Nobody can show that God has made a single philosophical claim because no one can show that God actually exists.

You are confusing blind faith with demonstrable fact. They are not the same.

God insisted that only He should decide what the Bible should contain

2 Timothy 3:16-17King James Version (KJV)

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

It may be wise to read the story behind the translation of the kjv of the Bible before condemning it. If you read it without bias you have to conclude that it was inspired.

Who Were The King James Version Translators?

It is commonly reported that there were 54 translators selected to the translation, but only 47 actually participated in the work. Mr. McClure's book chronicles 51 translators. As you read the translator's rules, you will see that other principal and learned men of the kingdom were also invited to make their comments on the work at hand.

The King James Bible translators were a collection of some of the world's best scholars. They approached this translation with the mindset that they were translating the very Word of God, not just some book. The King James Bible has been called "the monument of English prose" as well as "the only great work of art ever created by a committee."

Who Were The King James Version Translators?

 

[Bunyip]

A prediction that hasn't come to pass isn't a prediction, it's a guess.

I just love the idea of a prophecy about how we can not know when JC will return being claimed as fulfilled because people keep making false predictions - followed almost immediately by Serenity making that exact prediction. The irony is excruciating.

So if JC returns, prophecy is fulfilled. And if he fails to return prophecy is fulfilled - whatever happens the bible is proven right.

 

[Serenity7855]

So you're not saying that God, who supposedly inspired the Bible and is supposedly omniscient, didn't know? And since the end times haven't happened yet, no prophecies predicting them mean a thing. People have been claiming the end times are imminent for thousands of years, it hasn't happened yet. What good are prophecies if they don't actually predict anything?

Firstly, you need to know the definition of omniscient

Omniscience /ɒmˈnɪʃəns/,[1] mainly in religion, is the capacity to know everything that there is to know.
Omniscience - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The father cannot know that which cannot be known. He is both Alpha and Omega, knowing the beginning from the end, however, we all have free agency.

Secondly. People can predict all they like. All they do is mock God.

Matthew 24:36 King James Version (KJV)

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

 

[Serenity7855]

No, you have sufficient faith to believe there is a deity. Evidence can be objectively presented. You cannot do so or you would have by now. Someone would have, you'd think. There is a difference between faith and evidence. Figure it out.

Evidence does not have to be tangible, as you suggest. It is anything in support of an action.

Evidence, broadly construed, is anything presented in support of an assertion. This support may be strong or weak. The strongest type of evidence is that which provides direct proof of the truthof an assertion. At the other extreme is evidence that is merely consistent with an assertion but does not rule out other, contradictory assertions, as in circumstantial evidence.
Evidence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Cephus]

God insisted that only He should decide what the Bible should contain

No, you BELIEVE God insisted such, you can't prove it because you have no evidence that God actually exists. You only have a blind faith in such and people who shared that blind belief making unsupported claims.

 

[Cephus]

Evidence does not have to be tangible, as you suggest. It is anything in support of an action.

Which is why I keep specifying OBJECTIVE evidence. Anyone can make a claim that they were told by an invisible, intangible Glotz that something is true. Nobody ought to take that claim seriously. If any kind of thought that happens to pass through someone's head can be the basis of a belief claim, then evidence ceases to have any useful meaning.

 

[Serenity7855]

Which is why I keep specifying OBJECTIVE evidence. Anyone can make a claim that they were told by an invisible, intangible Glotz that something is true. Nobody ought to take that claim seriously. If any kind of thought that happens to pass through someone's head can be the basis of a belief claim, then evidence ceases to have any useful meaning.

You are right, nobody should take my word for it. I might be a compulsive liar, plus, you cannot live on my testimony, everyone needs to find out for themselves. The evidence is entirely made available for me. I have said this many times now. Where you are in error is by calling it a thought. That is not what a witness from the Holy Ghost is. If it were then how would you know the difference between a thought and the Holy Ghost?

 

[Serenity7855]

No, you BELIEVE God insisted such, you can't prove it because you have no evidence that God actually exists. You only have a blind faith in such and people who shared that blind belief making unsupported claims.

I do not have to prove it. If you want to know then you have to prove it, otherwise, leave it alone and mind your own business instead of being proactive in trying to convince Christians that they are wrong. Nobody wants to force you to be in a place where you do not want to be.

 

[Parsimony]

Firstly, you need to know the definition of omniscient

Omniscience /ɒmˈnɪʃəns/,[1] mainly in religion, is the capacity to know everything that there is to know.
Omniscience - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The father cannot know that which cannot be known. He is both Alpha and Omega, knowing the beginning from the end, however, we all have free agency.

Secondly. People can predict all they like. All they do is mock God.

Matthew 24:36 King James Version (KJV)

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

I read your last few posts and I'm wanting some clarification. Are you suggesting that God designed the Universe and humanity in such a way that He cannot predict what they will do with precision? Is that how you interpret free agency? Maybe I'm completely misreading. My apologies if I'm way off base.

 

[JustWondering]

You are right, nobody should take my word for it. I might be a compulsive liar, plus, you cannot live on my testimony, everyone needs to find out for themselves. The evidence is entirely made available for me. I have said this many times now. Where you are in error is by calling it a thought. That is not what a witness from the Holy Ghost is. If it were then how would you know the difference between a thought and the Holy Ghost?

The human brain is a powerful organ but it is not infallible.

On the neurobiology of hallucinations
Hallucination: A Normal Phenomenon?

How would one know if they are receiving the holy spirit, just saw big foot, were abducted by aliens, or just suffering from a hallucination? If you think having an hallucination is a more rational explanation than seeing big foot or being abducted by aliens why wouldn't it be a more rational explanation than receiving the holy spirit?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Is that what you would do? Dishonestly make false claims? I know that atheists are not bound by any moral accountability but such dishonesty is unethical to us Christians. You must surely know that the Holy Bible has been scrutinised more then any book in existence and it has been deemed as authentic and fully substantiated by experts in that field. It is used worldwide as a foundation to many different arguments as it is a moral compass to the actions of mankind. In all honesty your post is complete and utter dishonest nonsense seemingly intended to provoke a reaction.

Are you saying there is no possibility of fabrication? In light of the variations and changes made over the centuries as well as the original documents by which it's content remains "as is" upon it's discovery makes fabrication a valid view.

As it stands there are over 400,000 variations of text has been made. Each unique from another and not matching and consistent.

 

[Serenity7855]

I read your last few posts and I'm wanting some clarification. Are you suggesting that God designed the Universe and humanity in such a way that He cannot predict what they will do with precision? Is that how you interpret free agency? Maybe I'm completely misreading. My apologies if I'm way off base.

I cannot comment on the universe because I simply do not know, however, what I do know, from a variety of sources, is that it has been fine tune to allow for human life. That might suggest that it was not a predictable outcome so had to be adjusted after the initial expansion.

Agency is the ability and freedom to choose good or evil. It is an eternal principle which has existed with God from all eternity. The spirit offspring of the Father had agency in pre-existence and were thereby empowered to follow Christ or Lucifer according to their choice. It is by virtue of the exercise of agency in this life that men are enabled to undergo — the testing which is an essential part of mortality. Four great principles must be in force if there is to be agency: 1. Laws must exist, laws ordained by an Omnipotent power, laws which can be obeyed or disobeyed; 2. Opposites must exist — good and evil, virtue and vice, right and wrong — that is, there must be an opposition, one force pulling one way and another pulling the other; 3. A knowledge of good and evil must be had by those who are to enjoy the agency, that is, they must know the difference between the opposites; and 4. An unfettered power of choice must prevail. Agency is given to man as an essential part of the great plan of redemption. If God was able to know the outcome of our choices before we made them then it would be predestination and not agency. God would know who would make it and who would not.The whole plan of salvation would be destroyed and rendered worthless. God did not design agency, it is an eternal principle. We chose to either follow Satan or God. We obviously chose the latter.

 

[Dr. Strange]

I don't know about the rest of this but there is no science that gets a single thing from nothing. There are only two possibilities for what your stating.

1. The thing they call nothing is actually something. They do this constantly and it is so deplorable it makes me want to turn my degree in and divorce modern scientists all together.
2. Or they are making up science fiction or using terrible philosophy and cloaking their theological preference or musings under science which it isn't.

For example one of the worst statements in science history is one by Hawking. "Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing."

That is not just wrong it is plain stupid. Gravity not only is it's self a thing but it also depends on the pre-existence of other things. And no natural law has ever created anything. 1 + 1 never put a dollar in a single checking account. Natural laws explain how X did Y do not explain how X or Y came into existence. As Lewis (who apparently was a better scientists not mention journalist than Hawking, here) said natural law explains why a + b = c but first you must catch your a and b.

In 20 years of almost obsession with theological scholarship I have never heard of Tillich. But if you tell me what subject he biblical subject he deals with I could almost certainly give you several superior scholars to consider.

How do you mean science and faith are at odds? I did not get it but I will state that modern science it's self was overwhelmingly the product of men of faith and any list of sciences greats will be dominated by Christians. I think almost 80% of histories Nobel's are Christians, much of the rest are Jews.

"But the hope of religious people that they had finally found a safe niche for god where he no longer risked being flushed out by those pesky scientists has been dashed, just like all the other similar hopes of the past. The creation of the universe does not violate the law of conservation of energy. God is once again found to be superfluous." Big Bang for beginners-13: Does the Big Bang theory violate the law of conservation of energy? | Machines Like Us

Ok, I can accept that you missed the greatest theologian of the 20th century. Given your 20 obsessed years with theological scholarship, "How is it, that you missed what I call the greatest theologian in Christian history?" He not only is the greatest but, the fact that he drew his genius theological expertise from the greats before him, says volumes in regards to his Systematic Theology. Nonetheless, I suspect that being a Baptist you will condemn Tillich's theology. I get that. I do not expect you too accept his theology. I can only direct you a comparison of Tillich's Systematic Theology and Thomism: Thomism and the Ontological Theology of Paul Tillich, A Comparison of Systems, Donald J. Keefe, S.J.

 

[Dr. Strange]

But I have received sufficient evidence to prove that there is a deity. First off I gained an intellectual knowledge based on the mountains of circumstantial that exists pointing to God's existence, followed by a spiritual awareness of his existence. I now have no doubt what-so-ever that he lives. I am a realist. I need evidence to believe. I have received that evidence courtesy of the Holy Ghost. I ask nobody to believe me. If you want to know yourself then you must do the same.

James 1:5-6

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.


3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

Careful what you claim by the power of the Holy Ghost.