Faith in Christ is Completely Logical

[Dr. Strange]

This is simply a false dichotomy invented by people with an agenda and ignorant of faith. Whatever scientists it is you got that from stand firmly on Christianity's shoulders and those scientists that created modern science and even the fields themselves and account for 80% of the Nobel's awarded not only found plenty of room for God but saw him in everything they looked at. I have no idea what Christians are desperately trying to retail a last bastion for God in creation. All the ones I know find God in every place the OT prophets did and even more reasons to see him there. The desperation is practicing some kind of science of the gaps and trying to invent a reason to say materialism explains materialism, morality, consciousness, abiogenesis, fine tuning, biblical history, and any other faith related issue they can find by hook or crook (but mostly fantastic guesses that are more bad philosophy than science).

In a list of things apologists suggest to never say is that the universe violates thermodynamics and I don't recall having said it. So that paragraph above to know reality I am aware of. It grossly mischaracterizes people of faith and did not contend with any claim I made.

Who declared him the greatest theologian? I would suggest Billy Graham beats him in every biblical category but I am not having a contest. I would also throw in Craig, White, Wright, Zacharias, Bruce, Lewis, etc... In fact if you will look at this link List of Christian theologians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia you will find that Tillich is towards the bottom of a list of great 20th century theologians. The list is about 70 names long is not by any means complete so I hope to be forgiven for missing one of hundreds.

Hold the phone with all the judgments about what I would think about a man I never heard of. Let me at least look his work up first for pity sake.

Was the only point to your response to insist missing Tillich was unacceptable?

My point regarding you and Tillich is that you would dismiss his greatness and theology. Be my guest, look into his life and theology.

As for the science, you stated that no science to date says that something comes out of nothing. I simply showed you the science that does. Accept that science or not, your choice. Others may find value in it.

As for denigrating Christians with the use of science, that is not the purpose of science. You got angry because that is what you felt. Maybe you should re-examine your faith.

 

[Serenity7855]

Not to be insulting but do you understand how childish that really sounds? "I don't have to prove it, so there!"

Then you misinterpret my words. I am not being puerile I am saying that I do not have to prove my belief system to anyone as it pertains solely to myself and nobody else so the necessity to prove it is mute. By proving it does not change anything, aside from the fact that there is no proof available other them my word

You put yourself in a position where your claims can be challenged by choosing to be on a debate forum. I can't make you prove it but I can certainly point out your repeated failure to do so.

I welcome being challenged about the plan of salvation or the words in the bible, I will answer those challenges confidently and logically. I will provide circumstantial evidence where I can but if I could prove the existence of God them maybe I would have to be God as he is the one who can prove himself. I cannot. I have a personal witness testifying that God lives, but as you know, that cannot be proven. You either believe me or you don't. The choice is yours.

 

[Parsimony]

I cannot comment on the universe because I simply do not know, however, what I do know, from a variety of sources, is that it has been fine tune to allow for human life. That might suggest that it was not a predictable outcome so had to be adjusted after the initial expansion.

Agency is the ability and freedom to choose good or evil. It is an eternal principle which has existed with God from all eternity. The spirit offspring of the Father had agency in pre-existence and were thereby empowered to follow Christ or Lucifer according to their choice. It is by virtue of the exercise of agency in this life that men are enabled to undergo — the testing which is an essential part of mortality. Four great principles must be in force if there is to be agency: 1. Laws must exist, laws ordained by an Omnipotent power, laws which can be obeyed or disobeyed; 2. Opposites must exist — good and evil, virtue and vice, right and wrong — that is, there must be an opposition, one force pulling one way and another pulling the other; 3. A knowledge of good and evil must be had by those who are to enjoy the agency, that is, they must know the difference between the opposites; and 4. An unfettered power of choice must prevail. Agency is given to man as an essential part of the great plan of redemption. If God was able to know the outcome of our choices before we made them then it would be predestination and not agency. God would know who would make it and who would not.The whole plan of salvation would be destroyed and rendered worthless. God did not design agency, it is an eternal principle. We chose to either follow Satan or God. We obviously chose the latter.

An interesting interpretation. I'm not sure if I've ever heard of it before. I'm curious how Jesus could have known that Peter would deny him three times if the knowledge of Peter's personal choices could not be known in advance?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I spent many, many years trying to disprove religion and faith. Frankly, most religions are build upon the interpretations and logic of men, who do, by nature, fall short of the glory of God, thus their doctrines are susceptible to being flawed as well. So religions are easy to disprove, and that is not just a handful, that is all of them. So when we see our coequals, on the other side of the fence, rubbing their hands together in glee, taunting us with the words that religions are slowly fading from our world, we can take solice in the fact that we are best rid of them anyway, none of have authority to act in the name of God. To disprove them is a little like using the scientific method. You have to simply be familiar with the scriptures, which give us and insight to the character and will of God, and have god knowledge of the Plan of Redemption. Like science there are set constants and laws that cannot be change. By those laws we can know what is true and what is false. If the contravene a principle or commandment then they are false.

For example, I listen to a testimony of a man who died and was revived. He gave a detailed account of what happened to him whilst he was dead. A very convincing account as well, but for one detail that exposed it as a fraud, or the source was dubious. He said that he found himself in the presence of God. Now, anyone who knows scriptures would know that it is impossible for a Spirit to be in the presence of God, pre-judgement. Anyone who is familiar with the Plan of Salvation would also know that his claim was fallacious. The Plan of Salvation is like a jig saw puzzle with every piece being unique. Many of our religions have some of the pieces, however, none of them have all the pieces. To disprove them is just a matter of looking at the pieces to see if they are all there. I have yet to find a religion that has all the pieces.

To clarify when I say religion I am referring to denominations in the Christian faith.

Now faith and our personal relationship with God is another story. It cannot be faulted in anyway or form. To be converted by the Holy Ghost, who opens the gates to the pure knowledge of the Plan of Redemption, and to receive that knowledge in all humility and faith in Christ, is to make yourself impervious to the fiery darts of Satan. So, in essence, I am throwing down the gauntlet to anyone who thinks they can disprove the logic of the Plan that was devised by God and accepted by Christ. I am looking for miss-shaped jig saw puzzle pieces that do to fit making the finished picture ugly instead of magnificent to behold. I am looking for someone to stump me on any aspect of Gods marvelous work and wonder to bring to pass the salvation and eternal life of mankind. If it cannot be done then even the disbelieved must concede that it is a rational and logical plan.

None of this makes any sense. I don't have time to point out all the fallacies but it seems others are doing a good job at it......

 

[Dr. Strange]

Then you misinterpret my words. I am not being puerile I am saying that I do not have to prove my belief system to anyone as it pertains solely to myself and nobody else so the necessity to prove it is mute. By proving it does not change anything, aside from the fact that there is no proof available other them my word



I welcome being challenged about the plan of salvation or the words in the bible, I will answer those challenges confidently and logically. I will provide circumstantial evidence where I can but if I could prove the existence of God them maybe I would have to be God as he is the one who can prove himself. I cannot. I have a personal witness testifying that God lives, but as you know, that cannot be proven. You either believe me or you don't. The choice is yours.

I spent many, many years trying to disprove religion and faith. Frankly, most religions are build upon the interpretations and logic of men, who do, by nature, fall short of the glory of God, thus their doctrines are susceptible to being flawed as well. So religions are easy to disprove, and that is not just a handful, that is all of them. So when we see our coequals, on the other side of the fence, rubbing their hands together in glee, taunting us with the words that religions are slowly fading from our world, we can take solice in the fact that we are best rid of them anyway, none of have authority to act in the name of God. To disprove them is a little like using the scientific method. You have to simply be familiar with the scriptures, which give us and insight to the character and will of God, and have god knowledge of the Plan of Redemption. Like science there are set constants and laws that cannot be change. By those laws we can know what is true and what is false. If the contravene a principle or commandment then they are false.

For example, I listen to a testimony of a man who died and was revived. He gave a detailed account of what happened to him whilst he was dead. A very convincing account as well, but for one detail that exposed it as a fraud, or the source was dubious. He said that he found himself in the presence of God. Now, anyone who knows scriptures would know that it is impossible for a Spirit to be in the presence of God, pre-judgement. Anyone who is familiar with the Plan of Salvation would also know that his claim was fallacious. The Plan of Salvation is like a jig saw puzzle with every piece being unique. Many of our religions have some of the pieces, however, none of them have all the pieces. To disprove them is just a matter of looking at the pieces to see if they are all there. I have yet to find a religion that has all the pieces.

To clarify when I say religion I am referring to denominations in the Christian faith.

Now faith and our personal relationship with God is another story. It cannot be faulted in anyway or form. To be converted by the Holy Ghost, who opens the gates to the pure knowledge of the Plan of Redemption, and to receive that knowledge in all humility and faith in Christ, is to make yourself impervious to the fiery darts of Satan. So, in essence, I am throwing down the gauntlet to anyone who thinks they can disprove the logic of the Plan that was devised by God and accepted by Christ. I am looking for miss-shaped jig saw puzzle pieces that do to fit making the finished picture ugly instead of magnificent to behold. I am looking for someone to stump me on any aspect of Gods marvelous work and wonder to bring to pass the salvation and eternal life of mankind. If it cannot be done then even the disbelieved must concede that it is a rational and logical plan.


You seek and reject at the same time.

 

[McBell]

I don't know about the rest of this but there is no science that gets a single thing from nothing.

Are you seriously going to beat up that dead horse strawman in yet another thread?

Please be so kind as to present a list of those who claim "something from nothing"?

 

[Serenity7855]

An interesting interpretation. I'm not sure if I've ever heard of it before. I'm curious how Jesus could have known that Peter would deny him three times if the knowledge of Peter's personal choices could not be known in advance?

Very good question. It is a shame that some of the atheists here cannot come up with a decent challenge like that. I have asked the very same question and the answer I received was a pretty darn good one. I know my family that well that I can pretty much predict how my wife and children will act in a given situation. Peter had been a disciple of Jesus for some three years spending 24/7 with him. I would say that they had a very tight relationship. Jesus would have known that Peter would have denied him when put under pressure.

God knows each and everyone of us as much as Jesus knows Peter. God would have known that on that day there would have been three individuals there who were capable of asking Peter that question. The rest is history. God has a good idea what our decisions will be as a father has a good idea how his children will act. He just does not have absolute knowledge as that implies predestination.

Thank you, excellent question that caused me to think.

 

[Serenity7855]

None of this makes any sense. I don't have time to point out all the fallacies but it seems others are doing a good job at it......

Care to point out who exactly is doing a good job as I have obviously missed their posts. But hey, why don't you give it a go, if you have the intellect and knowledge.

 

[Serenity7855]

I spent many, many years trying to disprove religion and faith. Frankly, most religions are build upon the interpretations and logic of men, who do, by nature, fall short of the glory of God, thus their doctrines are susceptible to being flawed as well. So religions are easy to disprove, and that is not just a handful, that is all of them. So when we see our coequals, on the other side of the fence, rubbing their hands together in glee, taunting us with the words that religions are slowly fading from our world, we can take solice in the fact that we are best rid of them anyway, none of have authority to act in the name of God. To disprove them is a little like using the scientific method. You have to simply be familiar with the scriptures, which give us and insight to the character and will of God, and have god knowledge of the Plan of Redemption. Like science there are set constants and laws that cannot be change. By those laws we can know what is true and what is false. If the contravene a principle or commandment then they are false.

For example, I listen to a testimony of a man who died and was revived. He gave a detailed account of what happened to him whilst he was dead. A very convincing account as well, but for one detail that exposed it as a fraud, or the source was dubious. He said that he found himself in the presence of God. Now, anyone who knows scriptures would know that it is impossible for a Spirit to be in the presence of God, pre-judgement. Anyone who is familiar with the Plan of Salvation would also know that his claim was fallacious. The Plan of Salvation is like a jig saw puzzle with every piece being unique. Many of our religions have some of the pieces, however, none of them have all the pieces. To disprove them is just a matter of looking at the pieces to see if they are all there. I have yet to find a religion that has all the pieces.

To clarify when I say religion I am referring to denominations in the Christian faith.

Now faith and our personal relationship with God is another story. It cannot be faulted in anyway or form. To be converted by the Holy Ghost, who opens the gates to the pure knowledge of the Plan of Redemption, and to receive that knowledge in all humility and faith in Christ, is to make yourself impervious to the fiery darts of Satan. So, in essence, I am throwing down the gauntlet to anyone who thinks they can disprove the logic of the Plan that was devised by God and accepted by Christ. I am looking for miss-shaped jig saw puzzle pieces that do to fit making the finished picture ugly instead of magnificent to behold. I am looking for someone to stump me on any aspect of Gods marvelous work and wonder to bring to pass the salvation and eternal life of mankind. If it cannot be done then even the disbelieved must concede that it is a rational and logical plan.


You seek and reject at the same time.

Where do I do that?

 

[Dr. Strange]

Where do I do that?

Almost every post.

 

[Serenity7855]

Almost every post.

Right, OK, just blow and bluster then.

 

[JustWondering]

The same way as a blind man knows that the person who is replying to his words is stood in front of him. It is external to yourself. It is knowledge in the form of concepts transferred at a rate many time that of speech. It is communication with an entity that can neither be seen or physically felt yet is as real as the warmth of the sun on your face. It is something so magnificent that you want to tell everyone and give them the same experience that testifies of God and his son, Jesus Christ. It is the same experience for all of those who have truly been converted by the spirit of God.

You did not answer my question. Do you think that alien abductees were really abducted by aliens or did they hallucinate the whole thing? Same for big foot and ghosts? What about those who have similar experiences to what you mentioned above revealing the truth and beauty of different gods and faiths, are they hallucinating?

 

[Parsimony]

Very good question. It is a shame that some of the atheists here cannot come up with a decent challenge like that. I have asked the very same question and the answer I received was a pretty darn good one. I know my family that well that I can pretty much predict how my wife and children will act in a given situation. Peter had been a disciple of Jesus for some three years spending 24/7 with him. I would say that they had a very tight relationship. Jesus would have known that Peter would have denied him when put under pressure.

God knows each and everyone of us as much as Jesus knows Peter. God would have known that on that day there would have been three individuals there who were capable of asking Peter that question. The rest is history. God has a good idea what our decisions will be as a father has a good idea how his children will act. He just does not have absolute knowledge as that implies predestination.

Thank you, excellent question that caused me to think.

You're welcome. It was meant more as a genuine inquiry than a 'challenge'. Would your interpretation also mean that there was a very small, but finite, chance that Jesus could have been wrong about Peter's actions?

 

[Serenity7855]

You're welcome. It was meant more as a genuine inquiry than a 'challenge'. Would your interpretation also mean that there was a very small, but finite, chance that Jesus could have been wrong about Peter's actions?

I feel a little apprehensive saying this, but yes.

 

[Parsimony]

I feel a little apprehensive saying this, but yes.

I understand. Been there before.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Very good question. It is a shame that some of the atheists here cannot come up with a decent challenge like that. I have asked the very same question and the answer I received was a pretty darn good one. I know my family that well that I can pretty much predict how my wife and children will act in a given situation. Peter had been a disciple of Jesus for some three years spending 24/7 with him. I would say that they had a very tight relationship. Jesus would have known that Peter would have denied him when put under pressure.

God knows each and everyone of us as much as Jesus knows Peter. God would have known that on that day there would have been three individuals there who were capable of asking Peter that question. The rest is history. God has a good idea what our decisions will be as a father has a good idea how his children will act. He just does not have absolute knowledge as that implies predestination.

Thank you, excellent question that caused me to think.

One problem. It's written that Jesus interacted with Peter physically face to face. Iow tangability.

This cannot be used as God is not interacting in the same physical manner as Jesus and Peter.

 

[Serenity7855]

You did not answer my question. Do you think that alien abductees were really abducted by aliens or did they hallucinate the whole thing? Same for big foot and ghosts? What about those who have similar experiences to what you mentioned above revealing the truth and beauty of different gods and faiths, are they hallucinating?

I don't know. I do not have sufficient knowledge on Aliens, Big Foot or ghosts to make such a judgement. I know that someone like Robert or Kryptid have had similar experiences to me, however, I can no more make a comment on their experience as they can about my experience. All I know is that such a coincidence is very unlikely. I believe them both without reservation. There is no reason for either to lie, plus, I can feel their spirits.

 

[Serenity7855]

One problem. It's written that Jesus interacted with Peter physically face to face. Iow tangability.

This cannot be used as God is not interacting in the same physical manner as Jesus and Peter.

Au contraire mon ami, I interact with the Holy Ghost every single day. Right now as I write I feel his influence as to what I should say. The Holy Ghost, Jesus Christ and God maybe separate individuals but they act as one. The Holy Ghost knows me so that means that God knows me to. He know my prayers, my weaknesses, what makes me happy or sad, the intent of my heart and my desires, both in spirit and in body. He knows me enough to be able to anticipate my next decision.

What on earth does "Iow tangability" mean?

 

[Dr. Strange]

Right, OK, just blow and bluster then.

No different than your not answering my questions to establish what your terminology means.

 

[Serenity7855]

No different than your not answering my questions to establish what your terminology means.

To be perfectly honest, I do not understand many of your posts. I didn't want to say that through fear of offending you, however, I do not want you to think I am ignoring you either.