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Faith in Christ is Completely Logical

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
T
Are you saying there is no possibility of fabrication? In light of the variations and changes made over the centuries as well as the original documents by which it's content remains "as is" upon it's discovery makes fabrication a valid view.

As it stands there are over 400,000 variations of text has been made. Each unique from another and not matching and consistent.

I am saying that it is very unlikely that there are any fabrications based on the upstanding characters of those who translated it. Especially when considering that any revisions were predominantly in punctuations.

Slight exaggeration on the 400,000 fixes. Since 1611 the KJV has been “fixed” about 100,000 times to give us the translation of the KJV we have today. Almost all of these “fixes” are minor spelling and punctuation changes.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
The human brain is a powerful organ but it is not infallible.

On the neurobiology of hallucinations
Hallucination: A Normal Phenomenon?

How would one know if they are receiving the holy spirit, just saw big foot, were abducted by aliens, or just suffering from a hallucination? If you think having an hallucination is a more rational explanation than seeing big foot or being abducted by aliens why wouldn't it be a more rational explanation than receiving the holy spirit?

The same way as a blind man knows that the person who is replying to his words is stood in front of him. It is external to yourself. It is knowledge in the form of concepts transferred at a rate many time that of speech. It is communication with an entity that can neither be seen or physically felt yet is as real as the warmth of the sun on your face. It is something so magnificent that you want to tell everyone and give them the same experience that testifies of God and his son, Jesus Christ. It is the same experience for all of those who have truly been converted by the spirit of God.
 

"In Rom 12:13,14, the Christian community strives to overcome evil with good. Where, the common pursuit, is “to be a sacrifice offered to God.” Paul speaks, literally of the mercies (plural, “your bodies”)of God. “To offer ourselves” as “living sacrifices,” not as an animal sacrifice but as “alive and living,” a spiritual worship” “guided by logos (reason) and befitting man.” Be transformed,” Cf. 2 Cor 3:18. Not as in the transfiguration but by an inward and internal metamorphosis “involving man's nous [intellectual philosophy]. Reason and knowledge as opposed to sense perception “effected by the presence of God's Spirit within the Christian.” JBC[53:117].

I sense that you don't really follow "sound teaching." You speak but you don't explain. Sounds good but I'm not buying your song and dance without answers. Ya, I know, you don't have to prove anything. So be it then.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
"In Rom 12:13,14, the Christian community strives to overcome evil with good. Where, the common pursuit, is “to be a sacrifice offered to God.” Paul speaks, literally of the mercies (plural, “your bodies”)of God. “To offer ourselves” as “living sacrifices,” not as an animal sacrifice but as “alive and living,” a spiritual worship” “guided by logos (reason) and befitting man.” Be transformed,” Cf. 2 Cor 3:18. Not as in the transfiguration but by an inward and internal metamorphosis “involving man's nous [intellectual philosophy]. Reason and knowledge as opposed to sense perception “effected by the presence of God's Spirit within the Christian.” JBC[53:117].

I sense that you don't really follow "sound teaching." You speak but you don't explain. Sounds good but I'm not buying your song and dance without answers. Ya, I know, you don't have to prove anything. So be it then.

Sound teachings, I do. Misinterpretations, I don't. Blood sacrifices were done away with when Jesus atoned for our sins and was crucified.

Why was a blood sacrifice required in the Old Testament sacrificial system?

In addition, the blood sacrifices of the Old Testament also foreshadowed the coming of Jesus and His death upon the cross. The blood of Jesus was poured out as a sacrifice for the sins of people. This one-time sacrifice became the completion of the law and marked a new covenant for those who would believe in His name.

Before the death of Christ, the Jewish law required regular blood sacrifice offerings on behalf of sins.Hebrews 10:11-12shares that this need changed with the shed blood of Christ: "And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God." Christ's sacrifice was now sufficient and no further blood sacrifice is necessary.

Read more:Why was a blood sacrifice required in the Old Testament sacrificial system?
 
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1robin

Christian/Baptist
If you don't know what a post means click the little arrow next to so and so says. He said how do they know my belief. I think it was a joke. Was it a joke? Anyway it was funny. Neverrmind. I said I trust the evidence the writers saw. Do you understand? Haha
Man I must be getting slow. I don't think I understood a single point you made in that entire post. What arrow? I don't see or get the joke. And did not understand your last two statements. Maybe I should give up, turn out the lights, and take a nap.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Take a nap! Good idea.

See the blue strip. See savagewind said: That little arrow pointing up brings you to the conversation.

I can recreate it. The poster who told the joke holds to the sattus quo which is DON'T ANSWER HER. Haha. Now I get three laughs for the cheap price of one!

.....was it a JOKE?

I am going to try to recreate it. It's not going to be easy.

We are trusting that people in the past had real evidence that we believe.

how in the world could people in the past have evidence of your beliefs?

I don't know. How do you know they didn't?

WAIT A MINUTE! Haha! We believe their evidence which is written. Haha A frubal for funny.

See that his question says that people in the past had evidence of MY belief?

Haha! That makes four.

The sentence that caused the hub bub means we believe their evidence. OK?
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I don't have to know it, all I have to know is that you don't know it.
First of all you have no idea what I know. Second if you were right about what I know you could not possibly know that either. Thirdly you made a claim to knowledge and are now running from what is in fact your burden of proof.

From bad, to worse, to pitiful. What is below nothing? perhaps deplorable.


You act like you're rationally justified in believing any load of cockamamie nonsense you want, just because you've designed it in such a way that it's beyond objective evaluation.
And you act like cockamamie nonsense is under discussion. It isn't. I'm discussing lines of reasoning and evidence that have convinced the most intelligent men in history who specialize in evidence and testimony. I have not designed anything. What I believe in I found pre-existing and to pass the exact same tests used for any similar claims in secular studies.

Your going to have to cut out the grandstanding and proclamations and start actually posting evidence and rational arguments. You appear to have an emotional preference and no argumentation what so ever and I am not interesting in contenting with a guy yelling at traffic.



Nope, not a single one that will stand up to any kind of evaluation. It would need to be demonstrably written before the fact, be specific to refer only to a single possible event and not be open to purposely being fulfilled by people looking for it to occur. Nothing in the Bible does that.
You have done absolutely nothing but attempt to create truth by declaration when the best scholars in history disagree with you. I have about had it with this garbage but let me take one last shot and supply a few of their professional opinions and see if you have at least a single argument you have been saving all this time.

Lets start off with a man who may be the greatest expert in testimony and evidence in history and has forgotten more about them than you will ever know.

Simon Greenleaf (1783-1853) was the famous Royall Professor of Law at Harvard University, and succeeded Justice Joseph Story as the Dane Professor of Law in the same university, upon Story's death in 1846. H. W. H Knott says of this great authority in jurisprudence: "To the efforts of Story and Greenleaf is to be ascribed the rise of the Harvard Law School to its eminent position among the legal schools of the United States." Greenleaf produced a famous work entitled A Treatise on the Law of Evidence which "is still considered the greatest single authority on evidence in the entire literature of legal procedure."
In 1846, while still Professor of Law at Harvard, Greenleaf wrote a volume entitled An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice. In his classic work the author examines the value of the testimony of the apostles to the resurrection of Christ.

The following are this brilliant jurist's critical observations:
The great truths which the apostles declared, were, that Christ had risen from the dead, and that only through repentance from sin, and faith in Him, could men hope for salvation. This doctrine they asserted with one voice, everywhere, not only under the greatest discouragements, but in the face of the most appalling errors that can be represented to the mind of man. Their master had recently perished as a malefactor, by the sentence of a public tribunal. His religion sought to overthrow the religions of the whole world. The laws of every country were against the teachings of His disciples. The interests and passions of all the rulers and great men in the world were against them. The fashion of the world was against them. Propagating this new faith, even in the most inoffensive and peaceful manner, they could expect nothing but contempt, opposition, reviling's, bitter persecutions, stripes, imprisonments, torments, and cruel deaths. Yet this faith they zealously did propagate; and all these miseries they endured undismayed, nay, rejoicing. As one after another was put to a miserable death, the survivors only prosecuted their work with increased vigor and resolution. The annals of military warfare afford scarcely an example of the like heroic constancy, patience, and unflinching courage. They had every possible motive to review carefully the grounds of their faith, and the evidences of the great facts and truths which they asserted; and these motives were pressed upon their attention with the most melancholy and terrific frequency. It was therefore impossible that they could have persisted in affirming the truths they have narrated, had not Jesus actually risen from the dead, and had they not known this fact as certainly as they knew any other fact. If it were morally possible for them to have been deceived in this matter, every human motive operated to lead them to discover and avow their error. To have persisted in so gross a falsehood, after it was known to them, was not only to encounter, for life, all the evils which man could inflict, from without, but to endure also the pangs of inward and conscious guilt; with no hope of future peace, no testimony of a good conscience, no expectation of honor or esteem among men, no hope of happiness in this life, or in the world to come.
"Such conduct in the apostles would moreover have been utterly irreconcilable with the fact that they possessed the ordinary constitution of our common nature. Yet their lives do show them to have been men like all others of our race; swayed by the same motives, animated by the same hopes, affected by the same joys, subdued by the same sorrows, agitated by the same fears, and subject to the same passions, temptations, and infirmities, as ourselves. And their writings show them to have been men of vigorous understandings. If then their testimony was not true, there was no possible motive for its fabrication."

That opinion is even more astounding than it sounds and you should review it in it's entirety, as it is very famous and well scrutinized.

Lets move on. If Greenleaf is not the greatest scholar on evidence and testimony the next man probably is.

Wilbur Smith writes of a great legal authority of the last century. He refers to John Singleton Copley, better known as Lord Lyndhurst (1772-1863), recognized as one of the greatest legal minds in British history, the Solicitor-General of the British government in 1819, attorney-general of Great Britain in 1824, three times High Chancellor of England, and elected in 1846, High Steward of the University of Cambridge, thus holding in one lifetime the highest offices which a judge in Great Britain could ever have conferred upon him. When Chancellor Lyndhurst died, a document was found in his desk, among his private papers, giving an extended account of his own Christian faith, and in this precious, previously-unknown record, he wrote: "I know pretty well what evidence is; and I tell you, such evidence as that for the Resurrection has never broken down yet."

Lets try some historians. Among the best:

Professor Thomas Arnold, cited by Wilbur Smith, was for 14 years the famous headmaster of Rugby, author of a famous three-volume History of Rome, appointed to the char of Modern History at Oxford, and certainly a man well acquainted with the value of evidence in determining historical facts. This great scholar said:
"The evidence for our LORD's life and death and resurrection may be, and often has been, shown to be satisfactory; it is good according to the common rules for distinguishing good evidence from bad. Thousands and tens of thousands of persons have gone through it piece by piece, as carefully as every judge summing up on a most important cause. I have myself done it many times over, not to persuade others but to satisfy myself. I have been used for many years to study the histories of other times, and to examine and weigh the evidence of those who have written about them, and I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than the great sign which GOD hath given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead."

How about even a legendary literary scholar.

Brooke Foss Westcott (1825-1901), English scholar who was appointed regius professor at Cambridge in 1870, said: "Indeed, taking all the evidence together, it is not too much to say that there is no historic incident better or more variously supported than the resurrection of Christ. Nothing but the antecedent assumption that it must be false could have suggested the idea of deficiency in the proof of if."

Ok I am running out of room. Proclamations will no longer do, time to step it up and prove these brilliant scholars are wrong and I have hundreds more to supply in every possible relevant field you can imagine.


Try again.
Try at all.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Agreed. There's no evidence. The Holy Bible is completely fabricated and unsubstantiated and a poor foundation to use for any kind of arguement for validity of any creater. It's easy to "fulfill prophecy" . Just pen the fulfillment in and claim it happened. Lol
What are you guys doing? No evidence, no scholarship, not even a hint of an argument. Proclaiming a thing to be true may make it true it bizarre land but not in reality. Please start with my previous post and actually debate with rationality.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
When Armagettingthehelloutofhere comes and I can't I hope to remember that joke. And the demon enemy will say to self or whoever might listen "what they hell's wrong with her?" Haha Thank you for saving me from pain even if it wasn't on purpose. Haha

It not being funny makes it a WHOLE lot funnier.
 
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Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
T


I am saying that it is very unlikely that there are any fabrications based on the upstanding characters of those who translated it. Especially when considering that any revisions were predominantly in punctuations.

Slight exaggeration on the 400,000 fixes. Since 1611 the KJV has been “fixed” about 100,000 times to give us the translation of the KJV we have today. Almost all of these “fixes” are minor spelling and punctuation changes.

That's just my point. Who and how do you know the character of those responsible for translations? How is something like that assured with exceptions to a persons personal convictions and view that the character of each translator is stellar in regards to the task? Is there a record of names?

The 400,000 figure came from Wiki which can be taken for what it is, yet even so, Im figuring it's a grand total up to the present day from the time of the physical writings including modern day translations that are out there and compared. I am personally convinced it's a redacted work in light notable chunks were removed and added respectively through various denominations and sects suiting each.
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
You are right, nobody should take my word for it. I might be a compulsive liar, plus, you cannot live on my testimony, everyone needs to find out for themselves. The evidence is entirely made available for me. I have said this many times now. Where you are in error is by calling it a thought. That is not what a witness from the Holy Ghost is. If it were then how would you know the difference between a thought and the Holy Ghost?

Well, you're half-way there anyhow. You acknowledge that nobody should take your word for it, what you miss is that you shouldn't take your own word for it either. You could be delusional. You could have a mental defect. You could be seeing things. You could have misinterpreted information. You could be acting irrationally. In fact, that's exactly what you're doing, you're asserting to have had an experience with God or the Holy Spirit or whatever without having any way whatsoever of showing that it actually came from God or the Holy Spirit. You're just claiming that it was. Now I know that when I was in your shoes, I had the same kind of experiences and I made the same kind of irrational leaps. I was completely convinced that I had a personal relationship with these characters but it took a lot of deep study and consideration to realize that I had no reason to really think it was so and there were plenty of other better explanations for the phenomena. See, you're not taking to someone who has never been in your shoes, I was. I just got better. You can too.
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
I do not have to prove it. If you want to know then you have to prove it, otherwise, leave it alone and mind your own business instead of being proactive in trying to convince Christians that they are wrong. Nobody wants to force you to be in a place where you do not want to be.

Not to be insulting but do you understand how childish that really sounds? "I don't have to prove it, so there!" You put yourself in a position where your claims can be challenged by choosing to be on a debate forum. I can't make you prove it but I can certainly point out your repeated failure to do so.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
That's just my point. Who and how do you know the character of those responsible for translations? How is something like that assured with exceptions to a persons personal convictions and view that the character of each translator is stellar in regards to the task? Is there a record of names?

There is plenty of historical evidence to prove the integrity of the translator's. I have linked to such a site for you. Obviously in vane.

The 400,000 figure came from Wiki which can be taken for what it is, yet even so, Im figuring it's a grand total up to the present day from the time of the physical writings including modern day translations that are out there and compared. I am personally convinced it's a redacted work in light notable chunks were removed and added respectively through various denominations and sects suiting each.

Then you would be wrong.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
"But the hope of religious people that they had finally found a safe niche for god where he no longer risked being flushed out by those pesky scientists has been dashed, just like all the other similar hopes of the past. The creation of the universe does not violate the law of conservation of energy. God is once again found to be superfluous." Big Bang for beginners-13: Does the Big Bang theory violate the law of conservation of energy? | Machines Like Us
This is simply a false dichotomy invented by people with an agenda and ignorant of faith. Whatever scientists it is you got that from stand firmly on Christianity's shoulders and those scientists that created modern science and even the fields themselves and account for 80% of the Nobel's awarded not only found plenty of room for God but saw him in everything they looked at. I have no idea what Christians are desperately trying to retail a last bastion for God in creation. All the ones I know find God in every place the OT prophets did and even more reasons to see him there. The desperation is practicing some kind of science of the gaps and trying to invent a reason to say materialism explains materialism, morality, consciousness, abiogenesis, fine tuning, biblical history, and any other faith related issue they can find by hook or crook (but mostly fantastic guesses that are more bad philosophy than science).

In a list of things apologists suggest to never say is that the universe violates thermodynamics and I don't recall having said it. So that paragraph above to know reality I am aware of. It grossly mischaracterizes people of faith and did not contend with any claim I made.

Ok, I can accept that you missed the greatest theologian of the 20th century. Given your 20 obsessed years with theological scholarship, "How is it, that you missed what I call the greatest theologian in Christian history?" He not only is the greatest but, the fact that he drew his genius theological expertise from the greats before him, says volumes in regards to his Systematic Theology. Nonetheless, I suspect that being a Baptist you will condemn Tillich's theology. I get that. I do not expect you too accept his theology. I can only direct you a comparison of Tillich's Systematic Theology and Thomism: Thomism and the Ontological Theology of Paul Tillich, A Comparison of Systems, Donald J. Keefe, S.J.
Who declared him the greatest theologian? I would suggest Billy Graham beats him in every biblical category but I am not having a contest. I would also throw in Craig, White, Wright, Zacharias, Bruce, Lewis, etc... In fact if you will look at this link List of Christian theologians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia you will find that Tillich is towards the bottom of a list of great 20th century theologians. The list is about 70 names long is not by any means complete so I hope to be forgiven for missing one of hundreds.

Hold the phone with all the judgments about what I would think about a man I never heard of. Let me at least look his work up first for pity sake.

Was the only point to your response to insist missing Tillich was unacceptable?
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
  • Well, you're half-way there anyhow. You acknowledge that nobody should take your word for it, what you miss is that you shouldn't take your own word for it either. You could be delusional. You could have a mental defect. You could be seeing things. You could have misinterpreted information. You could be acting irrationally.

I could have equally have had an epiphany.

In fact, that's exactly what you're doing, you're asserting to have had an experience with God or the Holy Spirit or whatever without having any way whatsoever of showing that it actually came from God or the Holy Spirit. You're just claiming that it was.

Yep, that is true, however, as I have said, I ask nobody to believe me.

Now I know that when I was in your shoes,

You have never walked in my shoes.

I had the same kind of experiences and I made the same kind of irrational leaps. I was completely convinced that I had a personal relationship with these characters but it took a lot of deep study and consideration to realize that I had no reason to really think it was so and there were plenty of other better explanations for the phenomena. See, you're not taking to someone who has never been in your shoes, I was. I just got better. You can too.

You have never had the same experience that I have had. If you did then you would still be a Christian today. My experience cannot be explained in the same way as your delusion. That is why I know that my shoes do not fit your feet. That is how I know that you may have tried to become converted by the Holy Ghost but your lifestyle has caused you to fail. Your sins have been to great to allow you to see beyond the veil. That is why you are so proactive in trying to take men away from Christ because it makes your failure bearable and justified. You can then take solace in the words "see, I am not the only one who tried and failed. It must be all hogwash. If it isn't then why didn't I receive it?" I can answer that. You did not have what it took to live a Christ centred life. You submitted to the temptation of Beelzebub.
 
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Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
When Armagettingthehelloutofhere comes and I can't I hope to remember that joke. And the demon enemy will say to self or whoever might listen "what they hell's wrong with her?" Haha Thank you for saving me from pain even if it wasn't on purpose. Haha

It not being funny makes it a WHOLE lot funnier.
Haha... you make me laugh :D
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
I could have equally have had an epiphany.

I don't think "equally" is as statistically likely, considering how many other people claim to have had epiphanies. Hitler thought God commanded him to slaughter the Jews. Maybe he had an epiphany too?

Yep, that is true, however, as I have said, I ask nobody to believe me.

Not in so many words but you certainly make statements that expect people to believe you, statements of faith that hold religious ideas to be facts.

You have never had the same experience that I have had. If you did then you would still be a Christian today. My experience cannot be explained in the same way as your delusion. That is why I know that my shoes do not fit your feet. That is how I know that you may have tried to become converted by the Holy Ghost but your lifestyle has caused you to fail. Your sins have been to great to allow you to see beyond the veil. That is why you are so proactive in trying to take men away from Christ because it makes your failure bearable and justified. You can then take solace in the words "see, I am not the only one who tried and failed. It must be all hogwash. If it isn't then why didn't I receive it?" I can answer that. You did not have what it took to live a Christ centred life. You submitted to the temptation of Beelzebub.

Which is complete nonsense. It's the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, that people who don't fall into your particular belief system could never have believed in the first place. And while I have no idea what your experience might have been, I'd be willing to bet any amount of money that you've done nothing to rule out other alternatives. But instead of acknowledging that, you want to call me names.
 
Sound teachings, I do. Misinterpretations, I don't. Blood sacrifices were done away with when Jesus atoned for our sins and was crucified.

Why was a blood sacrifice required in the Old Testament sacrificial system?

In addition, the blood sacrifices of the Old Testament also foreshadowed the coming of Jesus and His death upon the cross. The blood of Jesus was poured out as a sacrifice for the sins of people. This one-time sacrifice became the completion of the law and marked a new covenant for those who would believe in His name.

Before the death of Christ, the Jewish law required regular blood sacrifice offerings on behalf of sins.Hebrews 10:11-12shares that this need changed with the shed blood of Christ: "And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God." Christ's sacrifice was now sufficient and no further blood sacrifice is necessary.

Read more:Why was a blood sacrifice required in the Old Testament sacrificial system?

"In Rom 12:13,14, the Christian community strives to overcome evil with good. Where, the common pursuit, is “to be a sacrifice offered to God.” Paul speaks, literally of the mercies (plural, “your bodies”)of God. “To offer ourselves” as “living sacrifices,” not as an animal sacrifice but as “alive and living,” a spiritual worship” “guided by logos (reason) and befitting man.” Be transformed,” Cf. 2 Cor 3:18. Not as in the transfiguration but by an inward and internal metamorphosis “involving man's nous [intellectual philosophy]. Reason and knowledge as opposed to sense perception “effected by the presence of God's Spirit within the Christian.” JBC[53:117].

I sense that you don't really follow "sound teaching." You speak but you don't explain. Sounds good but I'm not buying your song and dance without answers. Ya, I know, you don't have to prove anything. So be it then.

You have once again skirted the issue I put forth. Sure OT sacrifice is explained away but I was talking about "God's Spirit within the Christian." Two things happen with Christianity's beginning; doing away with the LAW and fulling the LAW by the Greatest Commandments, which has to do with the New Being in Christ.

Christianity finds within Jesus a Christ. Jesus is not that divine being that Christianity makes him out to be. The importance of Jesus teaching is imparting that new being. It exists in all of us. Always was and always will be.

Man's fall was not because Adam sinned but instead was about the moment of Creation man has been estranged from God. Let me explain, God is Spiritual and man is spiritual. If you understand the capitalization then you know I'm saying that man comes from God and no longer has a connection to God except through his spirit, life and how one lives that life. To struggle to regain God's presence, Christianity devised salvation.

Back to you avoidance. What is that "sound teaching?"
 
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