Faith in Jesus Christ

[1137]

There are more than 300 Messianic prophecies. The first one is in Genesis 3:15 pertaining to the virgin birth which states that Messiah, the seed of a woman would destroy the serpent (Satan). The prophets declared that He must be of the "lineage of David" (Jer. 23:5; 2 Sam. 7:10-16; Ps. 89:3-4) and rule upon David's throne. Matthew and Luke begin with the genealogy of Joseph and Mary to prove that Jesus Christ met the required criteria.

False, Joseph is no Jesus' biological father, therefore he is not of the same tribal lineage. The adoption is irrelevant, it is biologically passed. Same as if a Jewish woman adopts a Christian child, the child is only Jewish if they officially convert. Jesus is not of the tribal lineage of David, so not messiah. Besides this, he did not accomplish a single thing the Messiah is supposedly going to accomplish. There is still tyrany, there's still war against Israel, etc etc etc.

 

[1137]

Also, the messiah is to be born to a young woman, not necessarily a virgin. And since when was Christ's real name Immanuel?

 

[Riverwolf]

I think we should compile a list of the messianic prophecies, as well as the scripture from which they come. The source should be a Jewish translation, since those are going to be more accurate.

 

[InChrist]

False, Joseph is no Jesus' biological father, therefore he is not of the same tribal lineage. The adoption is irrelevant, it is biologically passed. Same as if a Jewish woman adopts a Christian child, the child is only Jewish if they officially convert. Jesus is not of the tribal lineage of David, so not messiah. Besides this, he did not accomplish a single thing the Messiah is supposedly going to accomplish. There is still tyrany, there's still war against Israel, etc etc etc.

The adoption is not irrelevant. Although Jesus was the Son of God, He was also officially Joseph's son by earthy legal terms. Accordingly, Jesus received all the legal benefits to be in line to inherit the throne of David through His adoptive father Joseph and biologically He was a descendent of David through Mary His mother.



He did accomplish the main thing the Messiah was supposed to accomplish to fulfill the prophecies related to His first coming. Have you read the story of Abraham when God asked him to offer his son Isaac? I’m sure you have, since you grew up reading the Torah. God did not require Abraham to sacrifice his son after all...because the LORD supplied the required sacrifice instead. Jesus came to earth to be the final sacrifice for the people of Israel and for the sins of the world, the perfect, sinless substitute for us all.

And looking at Jesus as He walked, he said, “Behold the Lamb of God!” John 1:36

But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth. Isaiah 53:5-7


Just as Christ fulfilled the prophecies precisely concerning the purpose for His first coming, He will soon fulfill all those concerning His second coming in power and glory to deliver the nation of Israel from all her enemies and bring the promised peace to the nation and the entire world.

 

[InChrist]

I think we should compile a list of the messianic prophecies, as well as the scripture from which they come. The source should be a Jewish translation, since those are going to be more accurate.

That would be interesting, but it sounds like something which may take a lot of time.

 

[Shermana]

Also, the messiah is to be born to a young woman, not necessarily a virgin. And since when was Christ's real name Immanuel?

Isaiah 7:14 is not even referring to the Messiah necessarily, unless it's supposed to be some sort of double prophecy, it's referring to a child born who is mentioned in the next chapter.

I think the whole virgin birth concept was shoe-horned in well after the initial church, along with an interpolated birth narrative.

 

[InChrist]

Also, the messiah is to be born to a young woman, not necessarily a virgin. And since when was Christ's real name Immanuel?

Christ has many names, several which are of a descriptive nature rather than a personal name...such as the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the Light of the World, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the Root of David, the Chief Cornerstone, Immanuel, etc



JESUS

 

[1137]

The adoption is not irrelevant. Although Jesus was the Son of God, He was also officially Joseph's son by earthy legal terms. Accordingly, Jesus received all the legal benefits to become be in line to inherit the throne of David through His adoptive father Joseph and biologically He was a descendent of David through Mary His mother.

You cannot inherit tribal lineage through adoption. I mean, do you also believe that if a child is adopted they'll magically inherit their parents' genes?

 

[1137]

Isaiah 7:14 is not even referring to the Messiah necessarily, unless it's supposed to be some sort of double prophecy, it's referring to a child born who is mentioned in the next chapter.

I think the whole virgin birth concept was shoe-horned in well after the initial church, along with an interpolated birth narrative.

I know, I was addressing the claim made that Isaiah 7:14 says the messiah would be born of a virgin. The translation is wrong, and if one believes that really is Christ, they are mistaken.

 

[1137]

Christ has many names, several which are of a descriptive nature rather than a personal name...such as the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the Light of the World, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the Root of David, the Chief Cornerstone, Immanuel, etc

Christ has more than one birth name? Very interesting to know. However, I should point out that using Christian sources to interpret Jewish scriptures is never the way too go. This thread proves as much, considering that in Judaism tribal lineage is from the biological father. My fathrr was Catholic, I am not a part of a tribr (which is fine with me).

 

[InChrist]

Christ has more than one birth name? Very interesting to know. However, I should point out that using Christian sources to interpret Jewish scriptures is never the way too go. This thread proves as much, considering that in Judaism tribal lineage is from the biological father. My fathrr was Catholic, I am not a part of a tribr (which is fine with me).

I don't think you are correct. If so, why is it that to emigrate to Israel under the Law of Return a person is only considered Jewish and eligible if his or her mother is Jewish? This means that you are actually part of one of the tribes of Israel, if your mother is Jewish. Besides, I don't think there is any question as to whether of not Jesus was of Jewish descent through Mary His mother. And as with any adopted son He also legally inherited any birthrights or promises that came through His adoptive father Joseph.

 

[1137]

I don't think you are correct. If so, why is it that to emigrate to Israel under the Law of Return a person is only considered Jewish and eligible if his or her mother is Jewish? This means that you are actually part of one of the tribes of Israel, if your mother is Jewish. Besides, I don't think there is any question as to whether of not Jesus was of Jewish descent through Mary His mother. And as with any adopted son He also legally inherited any birthrights or promises that came through His adoptive father Joseph.

You are Jewish if your mother is Jewish, tribal lineage is passed paternally. This is the way it works, not matter how Christianity has twisted it. Now, the question I just posed with my family and in the DIR is if he does inherit Mary's lineage (though technically I am inquiring about my own personal lineage). I will get back on that. Either way it is irrelevant anyways, as none of the following have been accomplished (NOT ONE SINGLE ONE):

• Isaiah 1:26: "And I will restore your judges as at first and your counsellors as in the beginning; afterwards you shall be called City of Righteousness, Faithful City." Some Jews[9] interpret this to mean that the Sanhedrin will be re-established."(Isaiah 1:26)
• Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
• The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:11-17)
• The "spirit of the Lord" will be upon him, and he will have a "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
• Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
• Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
• He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
• All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
• Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
• There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
• All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
• The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
• Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
• The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
• The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
• Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
• The people of Israel will have direct access to the Torah through their minds and Torah study will become the study of the wisdom of the heart (Jeremiah 31:33)[10]
• He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
• He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Either way it is irrelevant anyways, as none of the following have been accomplished (NOT ONE SINGLE ONE):

Hi, Doors. I have no dog in this fight, but I'm pretty sure I could make a convincing argument that all of the prophecies have been fulfilled -- at least as you've worded them. If you're interested, you could pick a couple of the harder ones and we can argue whether they've been fulfilled.

 

[Shermana]

Christ has many names, several which are of a descriptive nature rather than a personal name...such as the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the Light of the World, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the Root of David, the Chief Cornerstone, Immanuel, etc



JESUS

Christ never calls himself the Alpha and Omega. Neither in Rev 1:1, 1:8, 1:11 (As the KJV for some reason spuriously interpolates), or in 22:13 (Which is an Angel bearing a message from the Father). He calls himself "First and Last" because he's the Firstborn of Creation and the "Last Adam".

With that said, it says the child's name itself will be "Immanuel" which is far different than a title as listed. Even if Israelite names are titles. And the name "Immanuel' was the name of the child in Isaiah 8.

 

[1137]

Hi, Doors. I have no dog in this fight, but I'm pretty sure I could make a convincing argument that all of the prophecies have been fulfilled -- at least as you've worded them. If you're interested, you could pick a couple of the harder ones and we can argue whether they've been fulfilled.

Hahaha well you can try, but considering they are blantantly false you have already failed. I mean I am Jewish, I live in America, prophesy fail. Better, less sarcastic argument? Well, you honestly believe all people worship the Hebrew God, there is no tyranny anymore, all wars against Israel have ceased? You need to brush up on the current state of things.

 

[Riverwolf]

Hahaha well you can try, but considering they are blantantly false you have already failed. I mean I am Jewish, I live in America, prophesy fail. Better, less sarcastic argument? Well, you honestly believe all people worship the Hebrew God, there is no tyranny anymore, all wars against Israel have ceased? You need to brush up on the current state of things.

Well... at the very least,

He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)

Could pretty easily be argued to have been fulfilled, since Christianity has a fairly strong presence in most countries.

The others, I agree you have to REALLY stretch them to argue that they've been fulfilled, or deliberately mistranslate the verses.

 

[1137]

Well... at the very least,

He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)

Could pretty easily be argued to have been fulfilled, since Christianity has a fairly strong presence in most countries.

The others, I agree you have to REALLY stretch them to argue that they've been fulfilled, or deliberately mistranslate the verses.

Yes that is true, but so have many other religious figures anyways. It is not a very solid foundation, though it does falsify my claim that none of them are fulfilled.

 

[Shermana]

You are Jewish if your mother is Jewish, tribal lineage is passed paternally. This is the way it works, not matter how Christianity has twisted it. Now, the question I just posed with my family and in the DIR is if he does inherit Mary's lineage (though technically I am inquiring about my own personal lineage). I will get back on that. Either way it is irrelevant anyways, as none of the following have been accomplished (NOT ONE SINGLE ONE):

Those verses can mean that they take place over an entire age. For instance, the barren land has indeed become fruitful, look what the Labor Zionists from Russia turned the malaria swamps of Israel into. And look how many Jews have returned. Also, what exactly those verses mean is up to dispute. Not even the Talmudists can figure out exactly what the Messianic passages mean, that's why there's so many different interpretations of what Messiah and Messianic age is supposed to be. Some could be referring to the period of culmination at the end of the age, and coincide with things like Zechariah 14 in which the gentiles will all obey Succoth.

 

[1137]

Now, the question I just posed with my family and in the DIR is if he does inherit Mary's lineage (though technically I am inquiring about my own personal lineage). I will get back on that.

By birth or no-go. Jesus was not the biological son of Joseph (according to Christianity) so he is simply am Israelite, not of the tribe of David. Besides this, God in Judaism would not send himself in the flesh, the Messiah will be a mortal man.

 

[InChrist]

Christ never calls himself the Alpha and Omega. Neither in Rev 1:1, 1:8, 1:11 (As the KJV for some reason spuriously interpolates), or in 22:13 (Which is an Angel bearing a message from the Father). He calls himself "First and Last" because he's the Firstborn of Creation and the "Last Adam".

He calls Himself the First and the Last because of His eternal nature as God ( see Isaiah 44:6 and 48:12)The underlined verses below in chapters 1 and 22 show that it is Jesus who is the subject of the book of Revelation and it is Jesus who is to come again.

John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:
Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.
To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord,“who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Rev. 1;4-8


And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.


For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. He who testifies ti these things says, "Surely, I am coming quickly".



Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus! The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen Rev. 22:12-21

With that said, it says the child's name itself will be "Immanuel" which is far different than a title as listed. Even if Israelite names are titles. And the name "Immanuel' was the name of the child in Isaiah 8.

[/quote]

Jesus means Yahweh [the Lord] is Salvation, Christ means Anointed One, and Immanuel means God with us...all appropriate names for God the Savior of the world.