Faith in Jesus Christ

[InChrist]

Either way it is irrelevant anyways, as none of the following have been accomplished (NOT ONE SINGLE ONE):

• Isaiah 1:26: "And I will restore your judges as at first and your counsellors as in the beginning; afterwards you shall be called City of Righteousness, Faithful City." Some Jews[9] interpret this to mean that the Sanhedrin will be re-established."(Isaiah 1:26)
• Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
• The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:11-17)
• The "spirit of the Lord" will be upon him, and he will have a "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
• Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
• Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
• He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
• All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
• Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
• There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
• All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
• The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
• Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
• The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
• The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
• Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
• The people of Israel will have direct access to the Torah through their minds and Torah study will become the study of the wisdom of the heart (Jeremiah 31:33)[10]
• He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)

These prophetic scriptures will all be completely fulfilled during the kingdom age when Messiah (Christ) returns to rule and reign from Jerusalem for 1000 years and then in the eternal new heaven and new earth.

 

[InChrist]

By birth or no-go. Jesus was not the biological son of Joseph (according to Christianity) so he is simply am Israelite, not of the tribe of David. Besides this, God in Judaism would not send himself in the flesh, the Messiah will be a mortal man.

Why? Can God not determine to send Messiah in anyway He chooses? How can anyone other than God Himself be the Messiah or Savior anyway?

I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior. Isaiah 43:11

Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me. Isaiah 45;21

 

[1137]

These prophetic scriptures will all be completely fulfilled during the kingdom age when Messiah (Christ) returns to rule and reign from Jerusalem for 1000 years and then in the eternal new heaven and new earth.

The Hebrew scriptures do not say the Messiah comes twice. This idea was created specifically to address Christ's failure to fulfill the prophesies. If they have not been completed, Messiah has not come.

Why? Can God not determine to send Messiah in anyway He chooses? How can anyone other than God Himself be the Messiah or Savior anyway?

I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior. Isaiah 43:11

Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me. Isaiah 45;21

Well, first of all, God told us how he would send the messiah according to you, and a virgin birth means God lied. Either way, your quotes show exactly why God wouldn't come in the flesh. There is no God the father / God the son, there is God. One God, no others besides him. We do not worship the flesh, God is not of the flesh. Not even Messiah is to be worshipped, he is not God.

 

[Shermana]

He calls Himself the First and the Last because of His eternal nature as God ( see Isaiah 44:6 and 48:12)The underlined verses below in chapters 1 and 22 show that it is Jesus who is the subject of the book of Revelation and it is Jesus who is to come again.

Then you obviously haven't read Revelation beyond your cherry picked verses, or you need to reread it, because Jesus isn't the only who speaks. God and Jesus interchange in their speaking roles. Only a Trinitarian presumption would think they're the same being speaking. And the First and the Last is simply him stating a similar concept as God would have, not as God himself.

This is an excellent article, even if by a JW, on this "Speaker Confusion trick" which many Trinitarians employ.

Examining the Trinity: AO - Speaker Confusion

John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:
Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.
To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord,“who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Rev. 1;4-8

As you can see, it's God who is speaking there in the beginning.

And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie

That's the end of the Angels' message who is speaking for the Father.

. “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

And that is Jesus's conclusion of the letter itself.

For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. He who testifies ti these things says, "Surely, I am coming quickly".

Jesus comes quickly, and so does God. That does not make them the same being. Again, read that article.

Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus! The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen Rev. 22:12-21

Again, it's a closing of the letter, whereas 22:13 is the closing of the Angels' message of the Father. Speaker confusion is a major problem when reading Revelation.

Jesus means Yahweh [the Lord] is Salvation, Christ means Anointed One, and Immanuel means God with us...all appropriate names for God the Savior of the world.

If Jesus's name means "Yah is salvation", then that would mean they're not the same being.

And Immanuel means God IS with us.

Why would God anoint Himself? The word "Anointed" means one who was chosen to be anointed. God does the anointing for others, not Himself.

With that said, Isaiah 7:14 is not even reffering to Jesus, so it's pointless to even consider that he's called IMmanuel.

 

[Riverwolf]

Why? Can God not determine to send Messiah in anyway He chooses?

Sure. As long as it doesn't contradict how he said he would.

How can anyone other than God Himself be the Messiah or Savior anyway?

If God wills that someone other than himself be Messiah, then it will be so.

As for that Isaiah quote, that isn't necessarily referring to the Messiah.

 

[Shermana]

Why? Can God not determine to send Messiah in anyway He chooses? How can anyone other than God Himself be the Messiah or Savior anyway?

I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior. Isaiah 43:11

Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me. Isaiah 45;21

It also says that God sends saviors. I think I've been over this with you.

Obadiah 1:21

Young's Literal Translation
And gone up have saviours on mount Zion, To judge the mount of Esau, And the kingdom hath been to Jehovah!'

Judges 3:15

Young's Literal Translation
And the sons of Israel cry unto Jehovah, and Jehovah raiseth to them a saviour, Ehud son of Gera, a Benjamite (a man -- shut of his right hand), and the sons of Israel send by his hand a present to Eglon king of Moab;


So as The Savior, God sends saviors. Quite simple. Jesus is just another, though a much greater, savior that is sent in the line of sent saviors.

I do like how many translations change it to "deliverers", probably because they're aware this would poke another hole in their list of Trinity-proof texts.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Hahaha well you can try, but considering they are blantantly false you have already failed.

OK. If you are absolutely certain and don't want to anything to the contrary, I won't bother with it.

 

[1137]

OK. If you are absolutely certain and don't want to anything to the contrary, I won't bother with it.

Not an original copout but ok.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Not an original copout but ok.

No, not original. I've declined many time to argue with those who already know the truth and have no interest in examining other viewpoints.

 

[1137]

No, not original. I've declined many time to argue with those who already know the truth and have no interest in examining other viewpoints.

If what I know is true, why would you argue it? If you want to make your point do it, I don't do this whole "I have no argument so I'm going to play silly games" nonsense, so save it. Explain how you believe there is no war, the third temple exists, all the Jews have returned to Israel, etc.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

If what I know is true, why would you argue it?

That's interesting. It's the same thing YECs (Creationists) say to me. Since they know that Genesis it literally true, why do I want to argue it?

I dunno. I guess because we are hanging out in a forum created for the purpose of arguing over truth?

 

[1137]

That's interesting. It's the same thing YECs (Creationists) say to me. Since they know that Genesis it literally true, why do I want to argue it?

I dunno. I guess because we are hanging out in a forum created for the purpose of arguing over truth?

Genesis isn't literally true. You make you point and I'll respond, I won't be your partner in one of these useless dances.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Genesis isn't literally true. You make you point and I'll respond, I won't be your partner in one of these useless dances.

I've already made my point. I challenged you to examine the messiah prophecies with me. You told me that you already knew they were false. I said OK, then I won't bother arguing them with you.

If you had shown an interest in examining the messiah prophecies, I think I would have shown that any prophecy can be interepreted in wildly different ways, and done so with a straight face.

But now we've talked it to death without even discussing it. The magic is gone.

 

[1137]

I've already made my point. I challenged you to examine the messiah prophecies with me. You told me that you already knew they were false. I said OK, then I won't bother arguing them with you.

If you had shown an interest in examining the messiah prophecies, I think I would have shown that any prophecy can be interepreted in wildly different ways, and done so with a straight face.

But now we've talked it to death without even discussing it. The magic is gone.

I listed numerous messianic prophesies, pervert them any way you want.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I listed numerous messianic prophesies, pervert them any way you want.

No need to pervert them. They've all been fulfilled, as predicted... at least as worded in the English translation you listed.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Explain how you believe there is no war, the third temple exists, all the Jews have returned to Israel, etc.

Just to be clear about this, my assumption is that the 'prophecies' were written long ago, (in ancient Hebrew?) before the supposed ministry of Jesus.

If that is true, then it would be impossible for a prophecy to declare that "All the Jews will return to Israel." In fact, I've had biblical scholars in this place tell me that Jews didn't even exist back then.

So where are you getting your interpretations of these prophecies?

 

[1137]

No need to pervert them. They've all been fulfilled, as predicted... at least as worded in the English translation you listed.

Really? That is just blatantly a lie.

Just to be clear about this, my assumption is that the 'prophecies' were written long ago, (in ancient Hebrew?) before the supposed ministry of Jesus.

If that is true, then it would be impossible for a prophecy to declare that "All the Jews will return to Israel." In fact, I've had biblical scholars in this place tell me that Jews didn't even exist back then.

So where are you getting your interpretations of these prophecies?

The Jews did not exist during the events of the Torah (when taken as literal / historically accurate)?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Really? That is just blatantly a lie.

Wow. You aren't kidding, are you. Anyone who disagrees with you about a prophecy's fulfillment is lying? If your neighbor says it's fulfilled while you know it is not fulfilled, then your neighbor is lying?

It's hard for me to believe that anyone could see language that way. Am I correct in my understanding of your view?

Anyway, all of the prophecies about the Jewish messiah have been fulfilled. I'll be happy to show you howso if you're interested.

 

[Riverwolf]

Wow. You aren't kidding, are you. Anyone who disagrees with you about a prophecy's fulfillment is lying? If your neighbor says it's fulfilled while you know it is not fulfilled, then your neighbor is lying?

It's hard for me to believe that anyone could see language that way. Am I correct in my understanding of your view?

Anyway, all of the prophecies about the Jewish messiah have been fulfilled. I'll be happy to show you howso if you're interested.

Then why haven't you?

 

[1137]

Then why haven't you?

:clap