Faith is being sure...

[Soandso]

It's not the same thing.

You sure? I remember when people maxed out their credit cards and sold all their belongings prior to May 21, 2011 because of a prophetic word from Harold Camping. Millions and millions of people had faith in it

 

[Spice]

Not sure what you mean by that when you said you find what Jesus wanted to express to the Jews moire relevant to you r beliefs than Paul and his followers.

You'll have to run a comparison between the two, but for starters, Jesus was speaking to the individuals in his audiences where Paul writes to his followers who are assembling churches. Secondly, Jesus speaks of how to improve one's inner-self, and Paul is writing on how to better lead the new congregations. In general, Jesus teaches how to live from the heart/spirit, while Paul writes more about rules. Okay, that should give you are start.......

 

[YoursTrue]

You sure? I remember when people maxed out their credit cards and sold all their belongings prior to May 21, 2011 because of a prophetic word from Harold Camping. Millions and millions of people had faith in it

It was kind of dumb for them to max out their credit cards like that. Kind of selfish as far as I'm concerned. I try not to owe interest on anything if possible. But that's not the point. From what I have learned, and am still learning, faith without works is dead. That means that if I attempt to be rich it can all be taken away from some event.
And my time would be invested, so to speak, in getting rich rather than rich in fine works (or works of the Lord). I believe the Bible is the truth about God, whether some of the accounts are metaphorical or not. We can't speak to the writers now, but we can speak to God.
"“To the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God: 15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were cold or else hot. 16 So because you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I am going to vomit you out of my mouth. 17 Because you say, “I am rich and have acquired riches and do not need anything at all,” but you do not know that you are miserable and pitiful and poor and blind and naked,"

 

[YoursTrue]

You'll have to run a comparison between the two, but for starters, Jesus was speaking to the individuals in his audiences where Paul writes to his followers who are assembling churches.

We figure Jesus didn't write anything to be transmitted. Someone else wrote his sayings and history down. As far as Paul considering the congregations, the ministry of Jesus was rather different, in that he was the Messiah. Paul was not. He learned to follow Jesus and I believe this is most important to relate. I believe God certainly used Paul to help and encourage the early Christians, even warning them of problematic situations within the congregations at the time. And now.

 

[Soandso]

From what I have learned, and am still learning, faith without works is dead. That means that if I attempt to be rich it can all be taken away from some event.

That's not what Paul was referring to. If I remember correctly, what he was saying was that just believing something wasn't enough - what was required were action actions to show your faith was true

James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

What more proof can you put into your faith than by quitting your job and holing up in the basement with your family because Harold Camping's prophecy predicted the world was about to end? That seems like the ultimate demonstration of faith to me. People observing this faith were so serious about it that the raised the single largest advertisement campaign in the history of human kind - ever. THAT is faith

 

[YoursTrue]

You sure? I remember when people maxed out their credit cards and sold all their belongings prior to May 21, 2011 because of a prophetic word from Harold Camping. Millions and millions of people had faith in it

It would not be normal, so to speak (if anything is normal) if someone bet house and possessions on what someone else says or if he had a vision. That is not the way (true) Christianity works. On the other hand, when I became a Christian my family tried to stop me. They didn't succeed because I thought and believed I was doing the right thing. Camping's followers probably thought they were doing the right thing. The difference is my family, while still not Christians, saw me getting better, and more stabilized, Camping's followers probably had bigger problems. But I know what you're saying. I have not found my faith to be misleading, so I know what you're saying though.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It's not the same thing.

How is it different?

 

[YoursTrue]

That's not what Paul was referring to. If I remember correctly, what he was saying was that just believing something wasn't enough - what was required were action actions to show your faith was true

James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

What more proof can you put into your faith than by quitting your job and holing up in the basement with your family because Harold Camping's prophecy predicted the world was about to end? That seems like the ultimate demonstration of faith to me. People observing this faith were so serious about it that the raised the single largest advertisement campaign in the history of human kind - ever. THAT is faith

I was applying the thought about faith without works to attaining riches as one's goal in life.

 

[Spice]

We figure Jesus didn't write anything to be transmitted. Someone else wrote his sayings and history down.

May I ask why you're responding as "we" rather than "I"? And yes, it is generally believed others recorded his teachings according to the audiences his followers preached to, without Jesus ever actually making a mark of ink to papyrus.

As far as Paul considering the congregations, the ministry of Jesus was rather different, in that he was the Messiah. Paul was not.

I don't know that Jesus was "a" messiah, but he certainly wasn't "the" Messiah the Hebrew majority anticipate.

He learned to follow Jesus and I believe this is most important to relate. I believe God certainly used Paul to help and encourage the early Christians, even warning them of problematic situations within the congregations at the time. And now.

Paul didn't learn to follow Jesus, he learned to follow the Apostles. And I believe much of what Paul related became problematic and still does to this day.

I do appreciate Paul. If it had not been for him it's doubtful I would have ever heard of Jesus. Whether that would have been a good thing or a bad thing is impossible to guess. But I'm always leary of quotes of Paul that can't be backed-up by pre-Paul scripture.

 

[YoursTrue]

May I ask why you're responding as "we" rather than "I"?

I say 'we' because that is what should be discerned from the gospel accounts. Nothing in there to ascertain that Jesus wrote anything about himself. I will henceforth say "I" figure if that's better for you.

 

[YoursTrue]

May I ask why you're responding as "we" rather than "I"? And yes, it is generally believed others recorded his teachings according to the audiences his followers preached to, without Jesus ever actually making a mark of ink to papyrus.

I don't know that Jesus was "a" messiah, but he certainly wasn't "the" Messiah the Hebrew majority anticipate.

That could be true, I.e., that Jesus may not have been the Messiah the majority of Jews were looking for. Which leads to an interesting question: what were (or are) the Jews looking for in a Messiah?

 

[blü 2]

Isn't it about time that some people stopped challenging a person's faith by applying the principle of "proof"?

If that's their view, they're entitled to it.

Just let them not come near the debate boards here.

 

[Twilight Hue]

That's not what Paul was referring to. If I remember correctly, what he was saying was that just believing something wasn't enough - what was required were action actions to show your faith was true

James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

What more proof can you put into your faith than by quitting your job and holing up in the basement with your family because Harold Camping's prophecy predicted the world was about to end? That seems like the ultimate demonstration of faith to me. People observing this faith were so serious about it that the raised the single largest advertisement campaign in the history of human kind - ever. THAT is faith

And like Franz. , everything faith based went splat!

That's what happens when people try to make faith sound noble and virtuous.

 

[Spice]

That could be true, I.e., that Jesus may not have been the Messiah the majority of Jews were looking for. Which leads to an interesting question: what were (or are) the Jews looking for in a Messiah?

That's been covered quite well on these boards just in the last few days......a saving governmental leader of sorts. During Jesus's time, a King to bring freedom for the Hebrews from Roman oppression. How the criteria is modernized, I haven't a clue. The Messiah idea is one I can't grip from either Judaism or Christianity. I don't comprehend a purpose of governmental anything when it comes to Spirituality.

 

[Spice]

I say 'we' because that is what should be discerned from the gospel accounts. Nothing in there to ascertain that Jesus wrote anything about himself. I will henceforth say "I" figure if that's better for you.

Be true to yourself. That's why I asked why you said "we." I wondered if you were speaking for a specific dogma/doctrine.

 

[Trailblazer]

The Messiah idea is one I can't grip from either Judaism or Christianity. I don't comprehend a purpose of governmental anything when it comes to Spirituality.

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

I believe that those prophecies refer to what the messiah will do, and as a Baha'i I believe these prophecies refer to Baha'u'llah.

I don't know what Jews believe these verses mean but Christians believe that Isaiah 9:6-7 refers to Jesus.

However, these prophecies cannot refer to Jesus because Jesus disclaimed being the Mighty God when He called Himself “the Son of God” (John 5:18-47) and in those verses Jesus repudiates the charge that He claimed equality with God. Jesus disclaimed being the everlasting Father when He said, “my Father is greater than I” (John 14:28) and Jesus disclaimed being the Prince of Peace when He said, “I came not to send peace, but a sword” (Matthew 10:34). Jesus disclaimed bearing the government upon His shoulder when He said to “rend onto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's” (Mark 12:17, Matthew 22:21). Jesus disclaimed that He would establish a kingdom where he would rule with judgment and justice forever when He said, “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36).

 

[YoursTrue]

Be true to yourself. That's why I asked why you said "we." I wondered if you were speaking for a specific dogma/doctrine.

Stop telling me what I mean, please, after I let you know what I mean. Thank you. When I said 'we' I meant those that believe the gospel accounts. Henceforth I will not use the term 'we.'

 

[YoursTrue]

That's been covered quite well on these boards just in the last few days......a saving governmental leader of sorts. During Jesus's time, a King to bring freedom for the Hebrews from Roman oppression. How the criteria is modernized, I haven't a clue. The Messiah idea is one I can't grip from either Judaism or Christianity. I don't comprehend a purpose of governmental anything when it comes to Spirituality.

I understand. Just as I had to learn, and I don't wish to argue about it. So take care and hope things go well for you.

 

[Ignatius A]

If you have faith that the opposite direction coming driver will follow the same rules, you would have been long time dead by now.

That he will stay on the right side of the road? If he did that how would I be dead?

 

[Ignatius A]

Sola fide is a minority opinion of the daughters of a primary daughter of Babylon (Revelation 17:5), based on the "message" of the false prophet Paul, the "enemy" (Matthew 13:25), which is the message of "lawlessness", as in wickedness (Mt 13:49).

Justificatio sola fide (or simply sola fide), meaning justification by faith alone, is a soteriological doctrine in Christian theology commonly held to distinguish the Lutheran and Reformed traditions of Protestantism,[1] among others, from the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian and Anabaptist churches.[2][3] The doctrine asserts that it is on the basis of faith alone that believers are made right of sin (such as their transgressions of divine law); and not on the basis of what Paul the Apostle calls "works of the law",[4] which sola fide proponents interpret as including not only moral, legal or ceremonial requirements but any good works or "works of charity."

Matthew 13:49 “ So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, ” King James Version (KJV)

It's not biblical