Faithless a Choice?

[blü 2]

Why does the world lack faith? Is it because there is lack of evidence, hence disbelief?
According to the Bible, No. This is not the case.

Then the bible's been smoking the wrong stuff.

There is not only a massive lack of evidence for a real God ─ a not-imaginary God ─ there isn't even a definition of a real God, such that if we found a real suspect we could tell whether it was God or not. Nor is there any objective test that can distinguish the spiritual, the supernatural, the immaterial, from the purely imaginary.

There is a huge amount of clear evidence

Apart from the fact that there's no evidence ─ not a single photo, for a start ─ without that clear definition of God, how can there be clear evidence of God?

the Bible highlighted the reasons for the lack of faith - the faithless.
It said... "The reason why they were not able to believe is that again Isaiah said: “He has blinded their eyes and has made their hearts hard, so that they would not see with their eyes and understand with their hearts and turn around and I heal them.”

But we still have no idea what real entity we intend to denote when we say "God".

According to the Bible, the simple answer is... it's what they choose.
Do they want to be faithless?

That makes no sense. Faithless in respect of WHAT, exactly?

 

[Heyo]

Exactly, and ironically, often through religion, ignorance and arrogance, God gets an undeserved bad rap.

The dilemma of theodicy has two horns. Either god is omnipotent, then it is responsible for evil. If it isn't responsible, it can't be omnipotent.
The "bad rap" is unavoidable with an omnipotent god.

 

[Heyo]

"The reason why they were not able to believe is that again Isaiah said: “He has blinded their eyes and has made their hearts hard, so that they would not see with their eyes and understand with their hearts and turn around and I heal them.”

So the reasons the Bible gave are, 1) God prevents them from having that faith;

Is God fair in letting people choose even though it results in the person's harm, rather than their benefit?
I'm glad I can make a free choice, and I am sure Atheists, and agnostics are equally happy that they can freely choose what they want to accept.

So whether one has faith or not, is actually up to an individual. It a personal choice.
Thoughts?

"Now look at what you made me do." - God.

Do you really believe to have free will?
Do you really believe non believers to have free will?

According to you and your sources, god prevents me from seeing the evidence. Is that free will?
God demanded from you to first believe before showing evidence to you. Is that free will?
Is it an indicator for good evidence that the evidence is not freely available?


I am quite arrogant and that has always been enforced by my parents. I was always made responsible for things other kids weren't because I was smarter then them. I have kept that attitude because I find it useful.

But you want to make me responsible for an act of god and that at the earliest age of being able to make decisions. (At birth?)
That is a level of arrogance even I can't muster but you seem to have no problem with it.

 

[ratiocinator]

Are you asking because you really want it, or are you already convinced there is none?

I've never seen any convincing evidence that the bible is accurate - and the many contradictions suggest otherwise, but perhaps you have something new to offer?

You disagree. Okay... but do you understand? I'm not sure you do.

Understand what?

 

[thomas t]

They fear men

people in a spiritually blind state

before you start insulting others here on the Forums, could you please openly state you are a Jehovah's Witness?
So that people know where this comes from...

 

[nPeace]

The very reason you said juast can't be because a silly book of ancient superstitions said it's better to ignore facts and not ask questions about it and instead pretend you're better than those "blind non believers."

Because God leaves people in a spiritually blind state, because they don't want to accept, or they don't want to face rejection and ridicule from the faithless, but want to receive praise from them?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

God may be the initial Creator
and he may have a connection to our souls.
But there is an infinite lack of evidence, that God is more than an onlooker of events.
It is hard to believe that this world is any way significant to the Universe.

 

[nPeace]

There is a difference between believing in God and having faith.

For example, supposedly President W. Bush believed in God. But in the bible (Revelation) it says that we must not attack Iraq or face God's wrath (example, Revelation 15 (seven plagues, such as COVID)). In the 10 Commandments, God said "thou shalt not kill." This proves that President W. Bush had no faith. He might have (or might not have) believed in God, but he defied God by attacking Iraq and defied God by killing, and defied God by bearing false witness against Iraq (accusing them of terrorism, though they were completely innocent).

Therefore President W. Bush was faithless because he should have left terrorism in God's hands, and God would deal with the terrorists. The faithful would "turn the other cheek" rather than make war and kill.

This may come as a surprise to some, but all knowing and all powerful God was right and President W. Bush was wrong.

We are supposed to retain our faith, especially, in bad times. When attacked by the al Qaeda (in the 911 attack), we were supposed to retain our faith rather than use our feeble human minds to figure that we were sitting ducks to terrorists and that we should bring the attack to their land rather than fighting them on our soil. In other words, do what God wants us to do, rather than do what feeble human minds tell us to do.

People of faith follow God, not mankind. Faith isn't about using common sense. Faith is about knowing what is right, whether it makes sense or not....whether it can be proven or not.

Fear and lies (Satan's tools) keep people from faith. For example, the many Orange alerts issued by the Department of Homeland Security were designed to scare us into supporting W. Bush's unholy wars. Tom Ridge, Director of Homeland Security, was the only person who could have issued alerts. Yet, on the Paula Zahn talk show, Ridge said that he did not issue those alerts. Rather, he said, those alerts came from his superiors (the only ones superior to Ridge were W. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney (maybe the Department of Justice). So, phony alerts were issued to make us lose faith in God and follow the path of Satan.

How does one identify Satan? How does one know that they are following Satan? That's easy....follow the blood trail. Look at the killing, the torturing, the vast expense, the environmental damage (remember, that's God's environment), and the waste.

Many fine points here.
I especially like the point you brought out, on the difference between belief and faith.
That hits the nail square on its head. A person can believe, as stated in the OP - many believed - but they fail to put faith, because of various reasons - fear, or simply denial. They then claim, a reason for their lack of faith, namely "there is no evidence", or, "I have not seen any evidence", when infact this is not true, as the evidence is clear. God's invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable.
It is similar to the Jews who saw the works Jesus performed, and basically said, "Um. These works are nothing more than the works of Darkness." Some would probably say, "Bah. Black Magic."
Historians have said, they thought Jesus to be some magician. A trickster basically.

just to make a little clarity on what you meant by "Faith isn't about using common sense. Faith is about knowing what is right, whether it makes sense or not....whether it can be proven or not."
I don't think you are saying, we don't use common sense, in coming to faith or having faith, because we must use common sense in evaluating evidence, and investigating truth, and faith must be based on solid evidence. Faith is not gullible. It's not blind.
So, what I think you are saying is that one who has faith, does not need a explanation based on a human understanding on what makes sense. Perhaps that's why you said. "People of faith follow God, not mankind."
Not sure I put that right, but do you get what I am saying, and is that what you are saying?

 

[nPeace]

This is significant. It prescribes understanding with heart rather
than brain. The purpose is clear: Give the faithful a basis for
believing they alone have The Truth, ie, the feeling. It also gives
a basis for believing the heathen to be wrong, ie, a hard heart.
How is this known?
An old book said so.

It's elegant....no matter what the Christian believes, if it feels
true, it therefore is. Rational thought & evidence just harden
the heart against The Truth.

An old book that proves to be true, time and time and time again.
If someone told you the truth everytime, for centuries, why would you suddenly doubt? Based om what? Beliefs that contradict? That makes no sense to me.
It makes more sense to trust that the one whom have always been true, will be exalted, once the reality becomes known, or established. The scriptures say, "Let God be found true, even though every man be a liar."

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Many fine points here.
I especially like the point you brought out, on the difference between belief and faith.
That hits the nail square on its head. A person can believe, as stated in the OP - many believed - but they fail to put faith, because of various reasons - fear, or simply denial. They then claim, a reason for their lack of faith, namely "there is no evidence", or, "I have not seen any evidence", when infact this is not true, as the evidence is clear. God's invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable.
It is similar to the Jews who saw the works Jesus performed, and basically said, "Um. These works are nothing more than the works of Darkness." Some would probably say, "Bah. Black Magic."
Historians have said, they thought Jesus to be some magician. A trickster basically.

just to make a little clarity on what you meant by "Faith isn't about using common sense. Faith is about knowing what is right, whether it makes sense or not....whether it can be proven or not."
I don't think you are saying, we don't use common sense, in coming to faith or having faith, because we must use common sense in evaluating evidence, and investigating truth, and faith must be based on solid evidence. Faith is not gullible. It's not blind.
So, what I think you are saying is that one who has faith, does not need a explanation based on a human understanding on what makes sense. Perhaps that's why you said. "People of faith follow God, not mankind."
Not sure I put that right, but do you get what I am saying, and is that what you are saying?

Faith is about acceptance not proof

It is a stand in for knowledge when proof is unavailable.

 

[nPeace]

Are you saying you actually believe the worst elements of the Bible make some of the best look silly?

I don't even understand what you are asking here.

 

[nPeace]

My mind has been changed to several positions that I was originally convinced were false. And reciprocally, I have changed the minds of others from similar states. On topics both trivial and significant.

So, when people refuse to present their position merely because I am convinced that they are wrong, I see that as a copout.

This is RF. I have been here for more than a year. I have seen the responses of people whom have been given evidence. I think it is wise to discuss with people if they are willing to discuss with you, rather than just say something is wrong without being willing to show, or demonstrate why it is wrong.
If one is willing to do that, then it makes sense to me to start a discussion. On the other hand, a cop out to me, is whan one just says, "Bah." and walks away.

 

[Revoltingest]

An old book that proves to be true, time and time and time again.

Oh, were that only what actually happened,
then you'd have a case for people who aren't
already true believers.

If someone told you the truth everytime, for centuries, why would you suddenly doubt? Based om what? Beliefs that contradict? That makes no sense to me.
It makes more sense to trust that the one whom have always been true, will be exalted, once the reality becomes known, or established. The scriptures say, "Let God be found true, even though every man be a liar."

To offer what the book says as evidence for the book's
truth might be reinforcing, but not an argument for belief.

 

[nPeace]

Maybe you could go more deeply into your example for me.

Tell me a specific situation where someone would accept a belief based on choice without the influence of being convinced first.

Like... Would you just out of the blue choose to believe that Thor was a true god, and not Jehovah? No proof, no evidence. Would you choose to follow Thor just because?

I don't know about you, but I would need some serious convincing before I could accept that Thor was even real to begin with... Without that, there is no choice. Even with that, there's no choice, because then I would be convinced enough to accept it.

Notice what you said. "I would need some serious convincing."
Consider, now the question. What would be some serious convincing? In other words, what would convince you?
Lightning bolts coming out of his hands, Or something else?
Things happen, and people dismiss them with a wave of the hand, and attribute them to some unexplained phenomenon.
It is a choice.

Actually, the texts I use, says two things that confirm that.
1)
"The reason why they were not able to believe is that again Isaiah said: “He has blinded their eyes and has made their hearts hard, so that they would not see with their eyes and understand with their hearts and turn around and I heal them.”

2)
That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.

Did you notice... They did not want to see, hence God did not allow them to see, but let them be deluded, into believing what they wanted to believe - the lie.
The choice comes in the person deciding in their heart ...that's key.... deciding in their heart that the very thing is foolishness, and so, they would not see, because God withholds their ability to see.

People of flesh will never understand this, because it's a spiritual matter.
Unless one has that, it is impossible to grasp these thing, or even understand clearly what I am conveying here. It is as though I am speaking Japanese to one completely clueless of the language. I understand you though - clearer than you understand yourself.

Paul explained it this way...
For who among men knows the things of a man except the man’s spirit within him? So, too, no one has come to know the things of God except the spirit of God. Now we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit that is from God, so that we might know the things that have been kindly given us by God. These things we also speak, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, as we explain spiritual matters with spiritual words. But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually. However, the spiritual man examines all things, but he himself is not examined by any man. For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, so that he may instruct him?” But we do have the mind of Christ. (1 Corinthians 2:11-16)

I'm not sure if you got that, but that's it.
Jesus said, "Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need..." (Matthew 5:3)
Do you even understand what that means.
The physical man will never get it, because such a man only sees the physical - not that he cannot "see" the spiritual, because he can... if he wants to - that is, if his heart is opened - humble (God then grants him). However, he chooses not to. It's a choice... based on his heart - his innermost thoughts and desires.
I can choose to close my mind too. It's called closed-mindedness.

In the same book of John, Chapter 12, it mentions some of the things that people could observe, but then their reaction to these things, demonstrated their choice. You can read from verse 9 to 19, and see what I mean.

 

[Audie]

Notice what you said. "I would need some serious convincing."
Consider, now the question. What would be some serious convincing? In other words, what would convince you?
Lightning bolts coming out of his hands, Or something else?
Things happen, and people dismiss them with a wave of the hand, and attribute them to some unexplained phenomenon.
It is a choice.

Actually, the texts I use, says two things that confirm that.
1)
"The reason why they were not able to believe is that again Isaiah said: “He has blinded their eyes and has made their hearts hard, so that they would not see with their eyes and understand with their hearts and turn around and I heal them.”

2)
That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.

Did you notice... They did not want to see, hence God did not allow them to see, but let them be deluded, into believing what they wanted to believe - the lie.
The choice comes in the person deciding in their heart ...that's key.... deciding in their heart that the very thing is foolishness, and so, they would not see, because God withholds their ability to see.

People of flesh will never understand this, because it's a spiritual matter.
Unless one has that, it is impossible to grasp these thing, or even understand clearly what I am conveying here. It is as though I am speaking Japanese to one completely clueless of the language. I understand you though - clearer than you understand yourself.

Paul explained it this way...
For who among men knows the things of a man except the man’s spirit within him? So, too, no one has come to know the things of God except the spirit of God. Now we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit that is from God, so that we might know the things that have been kindly given us by God. These things we also speak, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, as we explain spiritual matters with spiritual words. But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually. However, the spiritual man examines all things, but he himself is not examined by any man. For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, so that he may instruct him?” But we do have the mind of Christ. (1 Corinthians 2:11-16)

I'm not sure if you got that, but that's it.
Jesus said, "Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need..." (Matthew 5:3)
Do you even understand what that means.
The physical man will never get it, because such a man only sees the physical - not that he cannot "see" the spiritual, because he can... if he wants to - that is, if his heart is opened - humble (God then grants him). However, he chooses not to. It's a choice... based on his heart - his innermost thoughts and desires.
I can choose to close my mind too. It's called closed-mindedness.

In the same book of John, Chapter 12, it mentions some of the things that people could observe, but then their reaction to these things, demonstrated their choice. You can read from verse 9 to 19, and see what I mean.

So its coz you are not a fleshy person that
you cannot understand things outside of your talking snakes book.

 

[nPeace]

I've never seen any convincing evidence that the bible is accurate - and the many contradictions suggest otherwise, but perhaps you have something new to offer?



Understand what?

Okay. The Bible contains prophecy - that is there are events written in advance, or things foretold, or predicted to happen. The prophecies in the Bible have been fulfilled exactly as prophesied.
I'll get to the specifics later, but just as a starter I want to get your position on this.
Do you deny that the Bible contains prophesies? Do you consider this to be false? On what basis?

 

[ratiocinator]

Okay. The Bible contains prophecy - that is there are events written in advance, or things foretold, or predicted to happen. The prophecies in the Bible have been fulfilled exactly as prophesied.

Sorry but I've looked into this before - nothing stands up to much scrutiny and there are multiple failed prophecies too.

 

[nPeace]

So its coz you are not a fleshy person that
you cannot understand things outside of your talking snakes book.

The fleshly person is more superficial. They do not seek to understand anything outside their worldview.
Which is what I refered to. They close their minds. It's a choice they make.
One who seeks to understand would listen with understanding.
The scriptures say, "All scripture, is inspired by God." That is all... not just one verse. So the spiritual person - that is, the one who first humbles themselves like a child, would use scriptures which show that there were no talking snakes, just as there was no magically educating tree.

 

[nPeace]

Sorry but I've looked into this before - nothing stands up to much scrutiny and there are multiple failed prophecies too.

So you think there were / are prophecies in the Bible. Yes?

 

[nPeace]

Oh, were that only what actually happened,
then you'd have a case for people who aren't
already true believers.

To offer what the book says as evidence for the book's
truth might be reinforcing, but not an argument for belief.

Not sure I follow what you are saying, sorry. can you elaborate?