Fake Covid Vaccination Cards Are on the Rise

[Unveiled Artist]

It does if you don't have the basic training to understand what the basis for the expert advice is and how to evaluate it effectively.

How much microbiology have you had? How well do you understand vaccine technology? How much epidemiology have you had? How much training in infectious disease? How much statistics have you had? Did you know what R0 meant previous to two years ago?

Unless you have actually read textbooks on these topics, you are unlikely to really understand what is going on, even if you have all the relevant data.

Experts are experts for a reason: they have the experience, knowledge, and background to evaluate things in their specialty better than even a relatively educated lay person can.

Most people are probably not experts in these fields so pro/anti vaxxers make decisions based on what they are given. Trying to differentiate what's fact and what's not I guess has more to do with trusting what facts you are given.

I don't even trust my personal doctors 100%. When we make decisions about my health we work things out together. Very different than CDC. It would be logical in and of itself to go to your doctor before taking anything but unlike medicines, I'm sure vaccines in and of themselves are near harmless. I'm at least glad CDC is reporting these highly possible side affects to the vaccines if not anything else.

 

[Polymath257]

Most people are probably not experts in these fields so pro/anti vaxxers make decisions based on what they are given. Trying to differentiate what's fact and what's not I guess has more to do with trusting what facts you are given.

I don't even trust my personal doctors 100%. When we make decisions about my health we work things out together. Very different than CDC. It would be logical in and of itself to go to your doctor before taking anything but unlike medicines, I'm sure vaccines in and of themselves are near harmless. I'm at least glad CDC is reporting these highly possible side affects to the vaccines if not anything else.

And you *should* work things out together. Hopefully the doctor takes some time to explain the basics to you. But there is also a problem with 'internet doctors' who think they know better than those who have the education and experience in the medical field.

I like to read medical books for fun. Whenever something comes up for me or those I care for, I first go to the textbooks to learn what the standards of care are, while realizing the books may be outdated. I then go online to *scholarly* articles to flesh out things. Then I talk to my doctor about what I have found and ask questions.

Most doctors are initially surprised when I do this. I have had one ask how I knew about cyclic-AMP and another that asked me to give a short lecture on the complement system and how it affects RA. Both verified the accuracy of my understanding.

But, if you don't know the difference between an eosinophil and a neutrophil, you simply don't have the background knowledge to reasonably evaluate material on immunology. If you don't know what a G-protein is, you don't have the background to understand signalling processes in the body. If the first time you heard about coronaviruses was a year and a half ago, you don't have the background in microbiology to be debating the doctors. And if you have never heard of cytokines before this pandemic, you don't have the background to understand what is killing people.

Knowledge of what you *don't* know is a HUGE part of being educated.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I'm fine with it, personally.

Shrugs. Lease you're honest about it and can see it. I don't know if either people can see these things and don't mind it or they can't and reacting to that observation. I'm totally not sure.

If nothing else, getting everyone to mask up is a pretty effective way to deal with the anti-vaxxers/anti-maskers who are willing to lie about their vaccination status so that they don't have to wear masks in public.

... which seems to be a serious problem in the US.

Yeah. That's a touch and go, I believe. For example, right now the majority of businesses say vaccinated=no mask, unvaccinated=mask. I assume that majority of people without masks have been vaccinated and a small small minority are unvaccinated and unmasked. Then you have people who mask up and most likely vaccinated just in case someone is in their face long enough to spread the virus. It's interesting to watch but I can only assume since I don't know their opinions personally.

They're the minority here.

Here in Ontario, we're at:

- 71% of the total population with at least one dose
- 63% of the total population with both doses

Just looking at people who are eligible (age 12 and up), we're at:

- 81% at least one dose
- 72% both doses

Wow. How big is your town?

Here

In Virginia, 5,360,689 people or 62% of the state has received at least one dose.

Overall, 4,708,697 people or 55% of Virginia's population has been fully vaccinated.
Virginia Coronavirus Vaccination Progress

I'm surprised its still near half but we have a lot of "pockets" in VA that aren't heavily populated if any.

In my local area its about 52%. I'm honestly not sure why its still in halves though given the push.

Sure, but after you explore the other person's position a bit and confirm that it's supported by either bad info or nothing, you can say "yes, it's ignorant."

I wouldn't say bad info, I'd say more the cause of intentions of the person deciding. Provax could be making their choice on fear. Both sides could be ignorant when making their decisions.

I'm talking more about the person not the info.

 

[ecco]

We have always been. I just don't see the need for media, experts, and our US president to guilt-trip people to get the vaccine because of this fact.

If it was up to me, I'd make it a law to prevent any unvaccinated person from entering any public building or gathering space. No restaurants, no offices, no rock concerts, no bars, no beaches.

Do you believe unvaccinated people are the majority?

You can tell people everything in the world-that they know and don't know-but the point is they make decisions for themselves and others (say loved ones). If it is contradicting yours that doesn't mean they were ignorant just you guys disagree.

Facts aren't scripture. They won't make you "born again." It depends on the person who takes that repeated information how he or she wants to use it and decide for the well-being for others and/or himself.

You have shown your disparagement for science. Repeatedly.
You have shown your disregard for your fellow citizens. Repeatedly.

Though if you guys can't spread the virus the masks are pretty much for show.

Why do you feel it is necessary to continue to show your ignorance and disregard for facts. Who ever said "us guys" can't spread the virus?

 

[We Never Know]

If it was up to me, I'd make it a law to prevent any unvaccinated person from entering any public building or gathering space. No restaurants, no offices, no rock concerts, no bars, no beaches.



You have shown your disparagement for science. Repeatedly.
You have shown your disregard for your fellow citizens. Repeatedly.



Why do you feel it is necessary to continue to show your ignorance and disregard for facts. Who ever said "us guys" can't spread the virus?

"If it was up to me, I'd make it a law to prevent any unvaccinated person from entering any public building or gathering space. No restaurants, no offices, no rock concerts, no bars, no beaches."

What if the person was tested 15 minutes prior and was negative?

 

[We Never Know]

Sadly some unvaccinated make fun of people who are vaccinated but still take an extra precaution of wearing masks.

Actually, I know no one who fits your strawman description. In the middle of June, I went shopping a few times without a mask because the infection rates had dropped to very low levels. Now, if I do go into a store, I wear a mask because infection rates are soaring again.

And here's my "actually" that happened.

When it got tested 3 weeks ago(I was negative), in the car beside me the person(who tested positive) was arguing with the nurse saying "I can't be positive, I'm vaccinated, here's my paperwork, your test is wrong!

That person was more dangerous for others to be around than I was.

 

[Kenny]

Who & how many of those?

that was my question.... how many of those have already had COVID? Is it conveniently not mentioned for selling a viewpoint?

 

[Revoltingest]

that was my question.... how many of those have already had COVID? Is it conveniently not mentioned for selling a viewpoint?

Perhaps it's just not useful info. Overloading the masses
with info causes eyes to glaze over. And besides...giving
that info won't turn anti-vaxers into vaxers.

Should I get a COVID-19 vaccine if I've already had COVID-19? - Mayo Clinic
Excerpted....
Getting COVID-19 might offer some natural protection or immunity
from reinfection with the COVID-19 virus. But it’s not clear how
long this protection lasts.
Because it’s possible to get reinfected and COVID-19 can cause
severe medical complications, the Centers for Disease Control
and Prevention recommends that people who have already had
COVID-19 get a COVID-19 vaccine.

Do I need a vaccine if I’ve already had COVID-19? - UChicago Medicine
Excerpted....
Do I still need the vaccine if I’ve already had COVID-19?

Absolutely. While we know recovering from a COVID-19 infection means you will have circulating antibodies in your system, we are still learning about how the immune system handles the antibody response after a natural infection. We’re not sure how protective the antibodies are from different kinds of infections — such as an asymptomatic infection versus a symptomatic infection. With vaccination, we know that people with healthy immune systems are getting a great antibody response. So I would recommend vaccination even after a COVID-19 infection to get the best protection.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If it was up to me, I'd make it a law to prevent any unvaccinated person from entering any public building or gathering space. No restaurants, no offices, no rock concerts, no bars, no beaches.

Where would we go?

You have shown your disparagement for science. Repeatedly.
You have shown your disregard for your fellow citizens. Repeatedly.

Never have. Vaccination status has nothing to do what people know or don't know.

Why do you feel it is necessary to continue to show your ignorance and disregard for facts. Who ever said "us guys" can't spread the virus?

Never have disregarded the facts.

Vaccination status doesn't tell anyone what one knows or doesn't know.

"We are not going back to masks. Masks provide an additional barrier to the spread of the virus. Is that so hard to understand?"

From your other reply, we are.

CDC says some vaccinated Americans should wear masks indoors again

Our apartment complex sent us a letter today saying as per CDC guidelines we need to wear masks regardless our vaccination status.

 

[Kenny]

... for the particular strain you had.

... for now.

... and with protection that isn't as good as a vaccine even for the strain you were infected with.

How Immunity Generated from COVID-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

Ok... but have you considered the other viewpoint?
Natural immunity vs Covid-19 vaccine-induced immunity - Marc Girardot of PANDA - BizNews.com

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ok... but have you considered the other viewpoint?
Natural immunity vs Covid-19 vaccine-induced immunity - Marc Girardot of PANDA - BizNews.com

The viewpoint based on made-up and misinterpreted crap? No, I haven't considered it.

I mean, I know it's out there and needs to be addressed, but I try my best not to base my opinions on misinformation.

 

[Kenny]

Perhaps it's just not useful info. Overloading the masses
with info causes eyes to glaze over. And besides...giving
that info won't turn anti-vaxers into vaxers.

Should I get a COVID-19 vaccine if I've already had COVID-19? - Mayo Clinic
Excerpted....
Getting COVID-19 might offer some natural protection or immunity
from reinfection with the COVID-19 virus. But it’s not clear how
long this protection lasts.
Because it’s possible to get reinfected and COVID-19 can cause
severe medical complications, the Centers for Disease Control
and Prevention recommends that people who have already had
COVID-19 get a COVID-19 vaccine.

Do I need a vaccine if I’ve already had COVID-19? - UChicago Medicine
Excerpted....
Do I still need the vaccine if I’ve already had COVID-19?

Absolutely. While we know recovering from a COVID-19 infection means you will have circulating antibodies in your system, we are still learning about how the immune system handles the antibody response after a natural infection. We’re not sure how protective the antibodies are from different kinds of infections — such as an asymptomatic infection versus a symptomatic infection. With vaccination, we know that people with healthy immune systems are getting a great antibody response. So I would recommend vaccination even after a COVID-19 infection to get the best protection.

The problem I see with your viewpoint is "we are still learning about how the immune system handles the antibody response after a natural infection."

The reality is that this type of vaccination is so new we really don't know the benefits vs the risks and we probably have more knowledge about the reliability of the natural immune system.

How many vaccines do we use that uses the natural process like polio, measles, mumps et al?

Proof Covid is turning into a mild illness? Survivors who get reinfected have lower viral loads | Daily Mail Online

Then you have the risks on using it on children which I find interesting:
Natural immunity vs Covid-19 vaccine-induced immunity - Marc Girardot of PANDA - BizNews.com

 

[Kenny]

The viewpoint based on made-up and misinterpreted crap? No, I haven't considered it.

I mean, I know it's out there and needs to be addressed, but I try my best not to base my opinions on misinformation.

And yet you really haven't given any substantive evidence for your position and just using a broad brush on opposing views really denotes bias.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And yet you really haven't given any substantive evidence for your position and just using a broad brush on opposing views really denotes bias.

No, it denotes that I recognize your denialism for what it is.

I don't believe for a second that your position is based on evidence or reason, or that taking the time to respond in depth to your link would be:

- time well spent on my part, or
- proportional to the minimal effort you put into copy-pasting a link to some blog.

Edit: your source is crap. If you want me to put effort into explaining why it's crap, then first you'll need to put some effort into explaining why you think it's awesome.

 

[Revoltingest]

The problem I see with your viewpoint is "we are still learning about how the immune system handles the antibody response after a natural infection."

The reality is that this type of vaccination is so new we really don't know the benefits vs the risks and we probably have more knowledge about the reliability of the natural immune system.

How many vaccines do we use that uses the natural process like polio, measles, mumps et al?

Proof Covid is turning into a mild illness? Survivors who get reinfected have lower viral loads | Daily Mail Online

Then you have the risks on using it on children which I find interesting:
Natural immunity vs Covid-19 vaccine-induced immunity - Marc Girardot of PANDA - BizNews.com

"Proof Covid is turning into a mild illness?"
Wouldn't that question receive a "No" answer
because of the recent increase of infection &
infirmity, particularly in children?

 

[Kenny]

"Proof Covid is turning into a mile illness?"
Wouldn't that question receive a "No" answer
because of the recent increase of infections,
particularly in children?

I'm not sure... We get flu infections but wouldn't classify it as severe. Recovery rate for children is almost 100%.

Reinfection rate is low...
Less Than 1 Percent of COVID-19 Patients Experience Reinfection | Physician's Weekly

Infection rate after vaccination is higher at 5%

 

[Kenny]

No, it denotes that I recognize your denialism for what it is.

I don't believe for a second that your position is based on evidence or reason, or that taking the time to respond in depth to your link would be:

- time well spent on my part, or
- proportional to the minimal effort you put into copy-pasting a link to some blog.

Edit: your source is crap. If you want me to put effort into explaining why it's crap, then first you'll need to put some effort into explaining why you think it's awesome.

Your bias is dripping. Your capacity to change what I said is creative. Your ability to make a charge about my position while displaying the same is amazing.

I think I will let you wander alone in your Antartica.

 

[We Never Know]

I'm not sure... We get flu infections but wouldn't classify it as severe. Recovery rate for children is almost 100%.

Reinfection rate is low...
Less Than 1 Percent of COVID-19 Patients Experience Reinfection | Physician's Weekly

Infection rate after vaccination is higher at 5%

I don't know if its correct but here are many others sources of that...

Less Than 1 Percent of COVID-19 Patients Experience Reinfection - Bing

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Your bias is dripping. Your capacity to change what I said is creative. Your ability to make a charge about my position while displaying the same is amazing.

I think I will let you wander alone in your Antartica.

Aww. The guy peddling medical misinformation in the middle of a pandemic doesn't like me.

If I had any respect for your opinion at all, I might be hurt.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm not sure... We get flu infections but wouldn't classify it as severe. Recovery rate for children is almost 100%.

Their hospitalization rate is increasing.
A bad thing that is....hardly "mild".

Reinfection rate is low...
Less Than 1 Percent of COVID-19 Patients Experience Reinfection | Physician's Weekly

Infection rate after vaccination is higher at 5%

Infection after vaccination has the benefit of less severe infirmity.
You wouldn't be advocating acquiring immunity by contracting the
disease, would you?