Fake Covid Vaccination Cards Are on the Rise

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The vaccines aren't working well with the new variant (they say it's more transmissible than the original COVID). Since we are going back to masks, I assume they're going to improve the vaccine or maybe create a new one that would fight against the new variant.

What makes you think the vaccines aren't working well against the Delta variant?

(And what do you consider "working well"?)

 

[Polymath257]

The vaccines aren't working well with the new variant (they say it's more transmissible than the original COVID). Since we are going back to masks, I assume they're going to improve the vaccine or maybe create a new one that would fight against the new variant.

So far just quick google search I didn't see anything from the CDC or other experts about the numbers of the Delta Variant... but I assume if the vaccines work against it we wouldn't need to go back to masks. Seems like the vaccine is a temporary fix.

Again. Not to prove you wrong.

The vaccines greatly reduce the likelihood of hospitalization and death from the delta variant. That is why almost all hospitalizations are among the unvaccinated. That is, the vaccines work well to prevent those effects.

The vaccines reduce the chance of getting the delta variant, but not as much as they do the alpha variant. They help prevent infection. So they work in this regard.

The vaccines do NOT prevent infection by the delta variant and those vaccinated can still spread the delta variant. That is why even vaccinated people should wear masks: to prevent spread of the infection.

One issue I see here is black/white thinking: either the vaccine works 100% or it is useless. Either masks are 100% effective or they can be done away with. Either there is no infection at all after vaccination or the vaccine isn't working. Either the vaccine prevents infection or it doesn't work at all.

Sorry, but that simply isn't the way the real world works.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What makes you think the vaccines aren't working well against the Delta variant?

(And what do you consider "working well"?)

I was just observing that we're going back to masks here in the states.

I know they are questioning the efficiency of the current vaccines against the Delta Variant.

Here's some info.... not specifically answering your question but same topic. What the Delta Variant Means for Vaccinated and Unvaccinated People

They're still learning on how these current vaccines work or are efficient (their definition) against the Delta Variant as they say the original COVID. If it worked at the "same rate" for lack of better words as it does the original COVID we would not need to go back to masks.

So it doesn't hurt to do some critical thinking about the decisions the experts and politicians make without making fact-statements.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The vaccines greatly reduce the likelihood of hospitalization and death from the delta variant. That is why almost all hospitalizations are among the unvaccinated. That is, the vaccines work well to prevent those effects.

The vaccines reduce the chance of getting the delta variant, but not as much as they do the alpha variant. They help prevent infection. So they work in this regard.

The vaccines do NOT prevent infection by the delta variant and those vaccinated can still spread the delta variant. That is why even vaccinated people should wear masks: to prevent spread of the infection.

One issue I see here is black/white thinking: either the vaccine works 100% or it is useless. Either masks are 100% effective or they can be done away with. Either there is no infection at all after vaccination or the vaccine isn't working. Either the vaccine prevents infection or it doesn't work at all.

Sorry, but that simply isn't the way the real world works.

I wish arguments were set up without black and white thinking but it seems to be that way on both sides-no vaccine you "will" get COVID. Vaccinated? you will not.

You can see this when we show vaccine severe side affects and its disregarded for its rarity rather than taken into consideration given the nature of the situation. The government and media does the same thing-black/white thinking. Mostly to get people to get the vaccine. It's like saying product X works 99.9% of the time and leave out that 1% to be safe.

Shrugs. Different tactics same motive.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I was just observing that we're going back to masks here in the states.

What does that have to do with the effectiveness of vaccines against Delta?

I know they are questioning the efficiency of the current vaccines against the Delta Variant.

Here's some info.... not specifically answering your question but same topic. What the Delta Variant Means for Vaccinated and Unvaccinated People

They're still learning on how these current vaccines work or are efficient (their definition) against the Delta Variant as they say the original COVID. If it worked at the "same rate" for lack of better words as it does the original COVID we would not need to go back to masks.

So it doesn't hurt to do some critical thinking about the decisions the experts and politicians make without making fact-statements.

Yes: it wouldn't hurt to do some critical thinking.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What does that have to do with the effectiveness of vaccines against Delta?

I was thinking that if the vaccines worked with the Delta (say the same rate as the original COVID) then the vaccinated wouldn't need to wear masks. Ideally there'd be no death increase because majority of people are vaccinated.

I've yet to see anything that says that vaccines may not work because of X. It's highly one-sided to talk about things that challenge the vaccines effectiveness (as in even to apply critical thinking) because every resource online, on news, from experts, and social media are censored, belittled as misinformation, or disregarded. It makes it a win-win situation for vaccinated side and not because of science.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I was thinking that if the vaccines worked with the Delta (say the same rate as the original COVID) then the vaccinated wouldn't need to wear masks. Ideally there'd be no death increase because majority of people are vaccinated.

So you took a bad assumption and just ran with it, eh?

 

[Polymath257]

I was thinking that if the vaccines worked with the Delta (say the same rate as the original COVID) then the vaccinated wouldn't need to wear masks. Ideally there'd be no death increase because majority of people are vaccinated.

I've yet to see anything that says that vaccines may not work because of X. It's highly one-sided to talk about things that challenge the vaccines effectiveness (as in even to apply critical thinking) because every resource online, on news, from experts, and social media are censored, belittled as misinformation, or disregarded. It makes it a win-win situation for vaccinated side and not because of science.

I have seen multiple articles pointing out that vaccination doesn't prevent infection. I have also seen multiple articles expressing concern about other variants becoming resistant to the vaccines. This is a situation that changes frequently because new variants are *expected* to arise and spread if there are enough people not resistant.

This is basic epidemiology.

On the other hand, the current vaccines *do* work to prevent hospitalization and death, even from the delta variant. Whether that will be true for the lambda variant is yet to be seen. We can't tell until we have the data.

As for low probability side effects, the probability *is* a relevant factor in assessing risk. The probability of long term problems or death from the virus is far, far larger than the probability of harmful side effects of the vaccine. And so the risk assessment is that the vaccine is preferable to getting the virus *even with the side effects*.

It simply isn't a dichotomy between working/not working. WHAT does the vaccine help prevent and what does it not? How do we mitigate the things the vaccine does NOT prevent?

Masks are required because the vaccine does NOT prevent infection or spread. The vaccine DOES help to prevent hospitalization and death.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

So you took a bad assumption and just ran with it, eh?

I was never going to take the vaccine anyway regardless. It doesn't hurt to critically think about stuff instead of just reading what the experts say and run off of that.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I have seen multiple articles pointing out that vaccination doesn't prevent infection. I have also seen multiple articles expressing concern about other variants becoming resistant to the vaccines. This is a situation that changes frequently because new variants are *expected* to arise and spread if there are enough people not resistant.

This is basic epidemiology.

On the other hand, the current vaccines *do* work to prevent hospitalization and death, even from the delta variant. Whether that will be true for the lambda variant is yet to be seen. We can't tell until we have the data.

I think that a certain contingent of the people here have been misrepresenting what the CDC and others are saying about the vaccines.

They don't prevent infection *perfectly*. They are very effective - but not 100% effective - at preventing infection and transmission.

The vaccines aren't perfect or foolproof, but they are excellent tools to help stop the spread of the virus.

I think a certain contingent has misrepresented the message of "vaccines aren't perfect, so still take reasonable precautions even after you're vaccinated" and tried to spin this into "vaccines do nothing to stop the disease, so don't get vaccinated," which is just false.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I was never going to take the vaccine anyway regardless. It doesn't hurt to critically think about stuff instead of just reading what the experts say and run off of that.

Yes, you should try that.

 

[ecco]

Don't separate the comments.

I'll reply as I choose to. If your posts are unintelligible, I'll inform you. If you choose to not make clarifications, OK.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes, you should try that.

Run with what the experts say without critical thinking?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Run with what the experts say without critical thinking?

No, just the "critical thinking" part.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I'll reply as I choose to. If your posts are unintelligible, I'll inform you. If you choose to not make clarifications, OK.

If you want an intelligible reply you have to post them in context. When you separate the quotes in Any conversation on online the points and conversation becomes garbled.

Pointing this out will help you get responses you may understand because I'd know in what context of your comment not just the comment itself.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No, just the "critical thinking" part.

That's for any person you, me, and everyone else. I'm just pointing out that provaxxers aren't the victims here when it comes to not critically thinking when making choices to take the vaccine.

Whatever I'm saying you can apply to me as well if you want.

No argument here. My points are the same.

 

[ecco]

The vaccines aren't working well with the new variant (they say it's more transmissible than the original COVID).

It is more transmissible and the vaccines aren't quite as effective against the Delta variant. The unvaccinated are by far the biggest group that is getting infected. The unvaccinated are by far the biggest group that is spreading the virus. The unvaccinated are by far the biggest group that is providing hosts for the vaccine to mutate.

If this continues a new variant may develop for which the vaccines are only 50% effective.

Since we are going back to masks, I assume they're going to improve the vaccine or maybe create a new one that would fight against the new variant.

We are not going back to masks. Masks provide an additional barrier to the spread of the virus. Is that so hard to understand?

So far just quick google search I didn't see anything from the CDC or other experts about the numbers of the Delta Variant... but I assume if the vaccines work against it we wouldn't need to go back to masks. Seems like the vaccine is a temporary fix.

It's temporary if many people remain unvaccinated and the virus mutates further. That shouldn't be hard for you to understand. Especially since many people have told you the same thing - repeatedly.

Again. Not to prove you wrong.

There isn't much chance of that. I don't accept and tout articles that are clearly labeled as not being peer-reviewed and where the reader is reminded that the content may be wrong.

 

[ecco]

If you want an intelligible reply you have to post them in context. When you separate the quotes in Any conversation on online the points and conversation becomes garbled.

Pointing this out will help you get responses you may understand because I'd know in what context of your comment not just the comment itself.

Funny

 

[Polymath257]

I was never going to take the vaccine anyway regardless. It doesn't hurt to critically think about stuff instead of just reading what the experts say and run off of that.

It does if you don't have the basic training to understand what the basis for the expert advice is and how to evaluate it effectively.

How much microbiology have you had? How well do you understand vaccine technology? How much epidemiology have you had? How much training in infectious disease? How much statistics have you had? Did you know what R0 meant previous to two years ago?

Unless you have actually read textbooks on these topics, you are unlikely to really understand what is going on, even if you have all the relevant data.

Experts are experts for a reason: they have the experience, knowledge, and background to evaluate things in their specialty better than even a relatively educated lay person can.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It is more transmissible and the vaccines aren't quite as effective against the Delta variant. The unvaccinated are by far the biggest group that is getting infected. The unvaccinated are by far the biggest group that is spreading the virus. The unvaccinated are by far the biggest group that is providing hosts for the vaccine to mutate.

If this continues a new variant may develop for which the vaccines are only 50% effective.

We have always been. I just don't see the need for media, experts, and our US president to guilt-trip people to get the vaccine because of this fact.

We are not going back to masks. Masks provide an additional barrier to the spread of the virus. Is that so hard to understand?

No. Though if you guys can't spread the virus the masks are pretty much for show.

It's temporary if many people remain unvaccinated and the virus mutates further. That shouldn't be hard for you to understand. Especially since many people have told you the same thing - repeatedly.

Do you believe unvaccinated people are the majority?

You can tell people everything in the world-that they know and don't know-but the point is they make decisions for themselves and others (say loved ones). If it is contradicting yours that doesn't mean they were ignorant just you guys disagree.

Facts aren't scripture. They won't make you "born again." It depends on the person who takes that repeated information how he or she wants to use it and decide for the well-being for others and/or himself.

There isn't much chance of that. I don't accept and tout articles that are clearly labeled as not being peer-reviewed and where the reader is reminded that the content may be wrong.

Ok.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

We have always been. I just don't see the need for media, experts, and our US president to guilt-trip people to get the vaccine because of this fact.

I'm fine with it, personally.

No. Though if you guys can't spread the virus the masks are pretty much for show.

If nothing else, getting everyone to mask up is a pretty effective way to deal with the anti-vaxxers/anti-maskers who are willing to lie about their vaccination status so that they don't have to wear masks in public.

... which seems to be a serious problem in the US.

Do you believe unvaccinated people are the majority?

They're the minority here.

Here in Ontario, we're at:

- 71% of the total population with at least one dose
- 63% of the total population with both doses

Just looking at people who are eligible (age 12 and up), we're at:

- 81% at least one dose
- 72% both doses

You can tell people everything in the world-that they know and don't know-but the point is they make decisions for themselves and others (say loved ones). If it is contradicting yours that doesn't mean they were ignorant just you guys disagree.

Sure, but after you explore the other person's position a bit and confirm that it's supported by either bad info or nothing, you can say "yes, it's ignorant."