Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe it isn't the title that makes them separate persons but position as my pastor likes to term it. God everywhere is the Father, God in Jesus is the Son. God in us is the Paraclete.
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Famous Trinity Diagram
- Thread starter rrobs
- Start date
I believe it isn't the title that makes them separate persons but position as my pastor likes to term it. God everywhere is the Father, God in Jesus is the Son. God in us is the Paraclete.
101G
Well-Known Member
that's an intresting statement. because if God is everywhere, (and which he is), and Jesus is that Spirit, the Paraclete, is he not? 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"
and "with" here indicate the same person. for the "advocate" is the "COMFORTER". it's the Greek word,
G3875 παράκλητος parakletos (pa-ra'-klee-tos) n.
1. (properly) one called near (to give help).
2. an intercessor (one who entreats of behalf of another).
3. a comforter.
[(not given)]
KJV: advocate, comforter
Root(s): G3844, G2822
and is not the Son that was given in Isaiah 9:6 is called, "Counsellor" a Paraclete, just as John 14:16-18 states about the Lord Jesus.who is "COMFORTER".
so not three but one "person "diversified"..
PICJAG.
That's modalism, not Trinitarianism.
101G
Well-Known Member
Yes.
Trinitarianism has three persons, each fully God, but only on God. "One person" means "not Trinitarianism."
101G
Well-Known Member
if each are fully God then that polytheistic in nature..
now if you want to prove it, then Just reconcicle John 1:3 with Isaiah 44:24 and if it's the same "PERSON" then it's no three persons. the scriptures are always true.
PICJAG.
No, that's tritheism.
The question isn't "does the Bible support Trinitarianism?" The question is "what's Trinitarianism?"
101G
Well-Known Member
so are you saying that the person in John 1:3 is not the same person in Isaiah 44:24? yes or no.
PICJAG.
I'm not saying anything about the Bible one way or the other.
moorea944
Well-Known Member
Just a comment on John 1v3 and Isaiah 44v24. And thanks for your posts!!!!
They are both talking about our Heavenly Father. John 1v3 is not talking about Christ yet, though most people think that. Christ comes into play in verse 14. In the beginning was God's Word (LOGOS), his plan and purpose. Then in verse 14, His plan and purpose and will comes through the Lord Jesus. God manifests Himself in Christ. God is working "through" his son (2 Cor 5). Jesus can in the name of his father.
They are both talking about our Heavenly Father. John 1v3 is not talking about Christ yet, though most people think that. Christ comes into play in verse 14. In the beginning was God's Word (LOGOS), his plan and purpose. Then in verse 14, His plan and purpose and will comes through the Lord Jesus. God manifests Himself in Christ. God is working "through" his son (2 Cor 5). Jesus can in the name of his father.
LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
In Trinitarianism, to say the Father is the one God would be incorrect because the one God is three persons not one person.
So, when Paul says that to us there is but one God, the Father, he is in contradiction with Trinitarianism.
So, when Paul says that to us there is but one God, the Father, he is in contradiction with Trinitarianism.
101G
Well-Known Member
first thanks for the reply, yes, both are the same one person. but I must disagree with your assessment that John 1:3 is not speaking of Christ. and here's why I disagree.
1 John 1:1 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;"
1 John 1:2 "(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us"
1 John 1:3 "That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ."
1 John 1:4 "And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full."
well a "plan" is not manifested, so that it could be handle, or touch. so, no this is the Lord Jesus, the Word who is God, (diversified), in flesh.
for John was not at the beginning , (Genesis 1:!), nor was any plan, but Jesus the Christ the word who is God himself is the ONLY one there at Genesis. but John clearly made the assessment that the beginning at John 1:1 and 1:3 is the Christ manifested. for John said that he "handle" or touch the Christ.
so try another approach, but yes, it's the same person...
PICJAG.
moorea944
Well-Known Member
first thanks for the reply, yes, both are the same one person. but I must disagree with your assessment that John 1:3 is not speaking of Christ. and here's why I disagree.
1 John 1:1 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;"
1 John 1:2 "(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us"
1 John 1:3 "That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ."
1 John 1:4 "And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full."
well a "plan" is not manifested, so that it could be handle, or touch. so, no this is the Lord Jesus, the Word who is God, (diversified), in flesh.
for John was not at the beginning , (Genesis 1:!), nor was any plan, but Jesus the Christ the word who is God himself is the ONLY one there at Genesis. but John clearly made the assessment that the beginning at John 1:1 and 1:3 is the Christ manifested. for John said that he "handle" or touch the Christ.
so try another approach, but yes, it's the same person...
PICJAG.
[first thanks for the reply, yes, both are the same one person. but I must disagree with your assessment that John 1:3 is not speaking of Christ. and here's why I disagree.]
I wasnt talking about 1 John 1, I was talking about the Gospel of John 1. But if you want, I can also talk about 1 John 1 if you want too.
[well a "plan" is not manifested, so that it could be handle, or touch]
Sure it can. Absolutely!! "In the beginning was the word." That word "word" is LOGOS in Greek. It is not talking about Christ, yet Christ IS in God's plan, ...... it is talking about God's plan and purpose and reasonings and in verse 14, they became real and manifested.
[no this is the Lord Jesus, the Word who is God, (diversified), in flesh.]
Jesus isnt God. There is one God and Jesus. Did someone tell you that Jesus was God? Just curious....... interesting....
[for John was not at the beginning , (Genesis 1:!), nor was any plan, but Jesus the Christ the word who is God himself is the ONLY one there at Genesis.]
Again,...... where are you getting this Jesus is God thing?...... Plus, are you saying that God didnt have any plans for his creation at the beginning? wow.....
[so try another approach, but yes, it's the same person...
]If i tried another approach, it would be false doctrine. Thanks anyway. Have a wonderful day!!
101G
Well-Known Member
First thanks for the reply, second, #1. 1 John reveals who he was speaking of in John 1:1[first thanks for the reply, yes, both are the same one person. but I must disagree with your assessment that John 1:3 is not speaking of Christ. and here's why I disagree.]
I wasnt talking about 1 John 1, I was talking about the Gospel of John 1. But if you want, I can also talk about 1 John 1 if you want too.
[well a "plan" is not manifested, so that it could be handle, or touch]
Sure it can. Absolutely!! "In the beginning was the word." That word "word" is LOGOS in Greek. It is not talking about Christ, yet Christ IS in God's plan, ...... it is talking about God's plan and purpose and reasonings and in verse 14, they became real and manifested.
[no this is the Lord Jesus, the Word who is God, (diversified), in flesh.]
Jesus isnt God. There is one God and Jesus. Did someone tell you that Jesus was God? Just curious....... interesting....
[for John was not at the beginning , (Genesis 1:!), nor was any plan, but Jesus the Christ the word who is God himself is the ONLY one there at Genesis.]
Again,...... where are you getting this Jesus is God thing?...... Plus, are you saying that God didnt have any plans for his creation at the beginning? wow.....
[so try another approach, but yes, it's the same person...
If i tried another approach, it would be false doctrine. Thanks anyway. Have a wonderful day!!
#2. a plan is a thought, and Jesus is not the thought.,
#3. yes, the Lord himself told me that that he is God.. lets stop right there.
question who raised up Jesus body from the dead? was it "God", or was it Jesus himself?
now we can discuss.
PICJAG.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe by the definition of person as one who has personality then yes it is one person having one personality but under the definition of a person inhabiting a body then Jesus is not the same type of person as the Paraclete and the Father is no person at all under that definition. So the church resolves the diversification by calling the three states, person. It is an ecclesiastical definition of the word.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe then you are saying Trinitarianism is three Gods and idolatry.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe three person has to be three Gods. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
What you're saying makes sense to me, but the question "what is the Trinty?" is a different question from "is the concept of the Trinity a self-refuting, illogical mess?"
I'm not saying that, but thanks for playing.
101G
Well-Known Member
first thanks for the reply.
I see only one person, the Holy Spirit who holds the titles, "Father" without flesh and bone, and the title, "Son" with flesh and bone, but in the natural states of being G2758 κενόω kenoo, per scripture Phil 2:6 & 7.
in that G2758 κενόω kenoo state he is the equal "share" of himself while in that state. by being shared, that's the maintaining of the ONE ONLY PERSON. clearly this is defined by scripture, Isaiah 63:5 and Isaiah 53:1-14.
so as the G3875 παράκλητος parakletos, he is the only one who is now glorified in a body that by his Spirit fills both heaven and earth.
PICJAG.