Fatah-Hamas pact - good or bad? Is Netanyahu justified in suspending peace talks?

[Debater Slayer]

The above is an "interesting" rewriting of the facts. Common sense should tell one that if Israel fully intended to target civilians that the body counts would have been astronomically higher than what it they turned out to be. Imagine what would have been the carnage if Israel had launched back into Gaza with over 7000 missiles and mortars instead of invading as they did.

Secondly, when the IDF went into southern Lebanon, they dropped leaflets written in Arabic warning that they would have to go in and that there was going to be damage, thus giving people a chance to get out. With some of the smaller villages, they broadcast using loudspeakers and gave residents a chance to leave.

Matter of fact, that invasion was a disaster for Israel as these cautionary steps gave time for the Hezbollah militants to retreat to the north and/or dress as civilians and mix in with the general population. I tend to think that Hezbollah now realizes that the IDF will not likely be as cautious next time, which is maybe why they've not been as aggressive lately. However, there's no way that they've transformed into a peaceniks.

BTW, the information I supplied above has been confirmed by multiple news sources from various countries, so you can Google verification for this actually quite easily.

And where were civilians supposed to leave their homes for? It's not really that easy for the residents of a place to up and evacuate their homes because they were "warned," and merely telling them to do so doesn't really absolve any given army of responsibility if they kill unarmed civilians.

 

[metis]

And where were civilians supposed to leave their homes for? It's not really that easy for the residents of a place to up and evacuate their homes because they were "warned," and merely telling them to do so doesn't really absolve any given army of responsibility if they kill unarmed civilians.

There were provision set for them to be taken care of and then allow them to return. The Israeli attempt was to try to find hidden weapons and insurgents in these towns and then leave. If Israel really wanted to attack and kill "unarmed civilians", then they certainly wouldn't have used that strategy.

 

[Godobeyer]

The above is an "interesting" rewriting of the facts. Common sense should tell one that if Israel fully intended to target civilians that the body counts would have been astronomically higher than what it they turned out to be. Imagine what would have been the carnage if Israel had launched back into Gaza with over 7000 missiles and mortars instead of invading as they did.

Secondly, when the IDF went into southern Lebanon, they dropped leaflets written in Arabic warning that they would have to go in and that there was going to be damage, thus giving people a chance to get out. With some of the smaller villages, they broadcast using loudspeakers and gave residents a chance to leave.

Matter of fact, that invasion was a disaster for Israel as these cautionary steps gave time for the Hezbollah militants to retreat to the north and/or dress as civilians and mix in with the general population. I tend to think that Hezbollah now realizes that the IDF will not likely be as cautious next time, which is maybe why they've not been as aggressive lately. However, there's no way that they've transformed into a peaceniks.

BTW, the information I supplied above has been confirmed by multiple news sources from various countries, so you can Google verification for this actually quite easily.

it's not could be Hezbollah realizes that Israeli army was using a cheap strategy by aiming (NOT intentionaly ) the civilians ? .so i realise too

so your reply is just make me believe what i already believe (btw I mark you words) .

btw Israeli army is so kind , are you sure leaflets was in Arabic ?


so you considare the Hezbollah and Hamas are terrorists because it's aimed the civilians , but Israeli army killed Palestians and Leboness civilians it's just NOT intentional "errors"

 

[metis]

it's not could be Hezbollah realizes that Israeli army was using a cheap strategy by aiming (NOT intentionaly ) the civilians ? .so i realise too

so your reply is just make me believe what i already believe (btw I mark you words) .

btw Israeli army is so kind , are you sure leaflets was in Arabic ?


so you considare the Hezbollah and Hamas are terrorists because it's aimed the civilians , but Israeli army killed Palestians and Leboness civilians it's just NOT intentional "errors"

Congratulations on writing the rather humorous fiction above. When you decide to write non-fiction, make sure to let us know, OK?

 

[England my lionheart]

Originally Posted by Godobeyer View Post
it's seems you mixed between the concepts in Islam

the verse of Quran you posted , had no relation with peace with others


Hamas beliefs that Israeli breaks the deals ,they don't keep their word .


Theres no confusion,this is article 13 of the Hamas charter/covenant,hopefully you would have noticed this part:

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:

I posted this again hoping for a response.

 

[Godobeyer]

Congratulations on writing the rather humorous fiction above. When you decide to write non-fiction, make sure to let us know, OK?

sorry ,
I can not believe that the innocents whom killed by Isreali bombs and missiles , are warned by leaflets writen in Arabic , I personally blame the bombs not who may recieve warning dropped leaflets .

and in same time you may justified by : Hezbollah militians dressed like civilians .

 

[seeking4truth]

It might be possible for Palestinians and Israelis to live together peacefully as they did before 1948 if there was equal justice and equal treatment of Arab and Israeli areas within Israeli borders but there is not.

It is impossible for Palestinian Israeli economy to develop under the restriction and siege that is imposed on them by Jews. That along with unequal spending on infrastructure causes continual frustration that drives the demand for Palestinian independence.
If Israeli Arabs had the same rights and benefits as Jewish Israelis there would be much more harmony.

Israel as an independent country could not exist without the economic support from outside.(for both sides) Remove that and they would soon make peace.

 

[metis]

It might be possible for Palestinians and Israelis to live together peacefully as they did before 1948 if there was equal justice and equal treatment of Arab and Israeli areas within Israeli borders but there is not.

It is impossible for Palestinian Israeli economy to develop under the restriction and siege that is imposed on them by Jews. That along with unequal spending on infrastructure causes continual frustration that drives the demand for Palestinian independence.
If Israeli Arabs had the same rights and benefits as Jewish Israelis there would be much more harmony.

Israel as an independent country could not exist without the economic support from outside.(for both sides) Remove that and they would soon make peace.

The above simply is wrong on so many counts.

First of all, Jews and Arabs did not live peacefully prior to 1948, and I can elaborate on this if you wish. Secondly, the issue of equality indeed is important, and Palestinians living within the boundaries of Israel have more freedoms than what are found in most of the surrounding countries, which is quite evident by the absence of line for them living Israel. Also, the standard of living for Palestinians living in Israel is higher than those in the neighboring countries.

Thirdly, the Palestinians in both the WB and GS have had plenty of opportunities to go for peace but their leaders there simply don't want it. As was said about Arafat, "He never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity".

Exactly how do you make peace with those who both officially declare and act out on the fact that they simply want you out? Where's the compromise possible? Have you ever read the Hamas and Hezbollah charters or listened to what their leaders have been saying?

And you blame Israel for supposedly not pursuing peace, but what about the tens of thousands of missiles and mortars launched against civilian targets in Israel within the last decade? What about the fact that Hamas and Hezbollah have been amassing offensive weapons near Israel's border?

 

[Flankerl]

sorry ,
I can not believe that the innocents whom killed by Isreali bombs and missiles , are warned by leaflets writen in Arabic , I personally blame the bombs not who may recieve warning dropped leaflets .

You know just because you wouldnt warn Jews with leaflets written in Hebrew doesnt mean that others are like you.

Oh and look its the same for Gaza.
Israeli army drops thousands of leaflets over Gaza | Maan News Agency

Looking forward to your evasive answer.

It might be possible for Palestinians and Israelis to live together peacefully as they did before 1948 if there was equal justice and equal treatment of Arab and Israeli areas within Israeli borders but there is not.

Ah yes there was so much peace before 1948... except there wasnt.

Israel as an independent country could not exist without the economic support from outside.(for both sides) Remove that and they would soon make peace.

Because there are so many other economic independent countries in the world.

Oh wait there arent.

 

[Godobeyer]

You know just because you wouldnt warn Jews with leaflets written in Hebrew doesnt mean that others are like you.

Oh and look its the same for Gaza.
Israeli army drops thousands of leaflets over Gaza | Maan News Agency

Looking forward to your evasive answer.





Ah yes there was so much peace before 1948... except there wasnt.




Because there are so many other economic independent countries in the world.

Oh wait there arent.

so why there was too much innocents killed , I think they were not fool to stay in area maybe hitted (warned area ) ?

why you convince too much that the Israeli army dropped the leaflets in first place , whats your garanty they dropped it in the right time and place ? you were with them in the plane "mission" to be witeness ?


so why the Israeli army did not made investigation for killing innocents ? and punish the doers ?

 

[Godobeyer]

Originally Posted by Godobeyer View Post
it's seems you mixed between the concepts in Islam

the verse of Quran you posted , had no relation with peace with others


Hamas beliefs that Israeli breaks the deals ,they don't keep their word .


Theres no confusion,this is article 13 of the Hamas charter/covenant,hopefully you would have noticed this part:

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:

I posted this again hoping for a response.

sorry i did not read very well the first post , i just over viewed it


because the Zionsits (israeli) don't keep their word in deals , so they are convince in the resistences (Jihad) instead of peace negotiations (sheep and wolve peace) .

I am with Jihad which aiming the army to defence and remove the abuse "seige" , i don't agree with suicide bombs or rockets ...etc .

so I do agree with Hamas in some actions and don't in others .

I think, they should prepare to defense for them selfs when war happened ,
and they prepare justice peace , when their rights back . (not forced peace as Israel regime want)

as I said before :

the cheap strategy (that done by Israeli army) with Palestians and Leboness by killing the others civilians, to protect my civilians is coward and racist .


they said in the article : "it's waste of time by international conference"

so it's forcelly mean : they got damn it for internations conferences ,and negotiations to get their rights back with deal breakers "

when Israel regime break the deal with Fatah , so Hamas blamed Fatah for wasting the time with deal breakers (Israelis regime) .

 

[icehorse]

An open question for everyone arguing against Israel in this debate:

Given the Hamas 1988 Charter, which as far as I can tell Hamas has not officially revised, what grounds do Palestinians have for any complaints concerning any actions taken by the Israelis?

It seems that the Hamas charter is a declaration of war against Israel. It might not use those words officially, but in practice it seems to be such...

_____________
defend net neutrality - "without love in the game, insanity's king"

 

[Godobeyer]

An open question for everyone arguing against Israel Palestine in this debate:

Given the Hamas Israel 1988 1948 Charter, which as far as I can tell Hamas Israel has not officially revised, what grounds do Palestinians Israels have for any complaints concerning any actions taken by the Israelis Palestians ?

It seems that the Hamas Israeli charter is a declaration of war against Israel Palestine (arabs). It might not use those words officially, but in practice it seems to be such...

it's could be edited to describe the Israeli regime too , as well.

I don't justify to both extrem actions .
it's for sure the abuse and unjustice peace and racist and colonise and seige , creating the resistence and extremism .

Israeli regime want a peace by force (threat) , peace by breaking what already deal about , their practice this rule with palestinians "let's make a deal for what we already we dealed about ".

the first rule to start the negotiation of peace , is by admit it's racist ,


so I guess you see from one angle .

 

[metis]

the first rule to start the negotiation of peace , is by admit it's racist ,

Yes, Hamas and el-Fatah shouldn't be so "racist" and legally use "apartheid" by officially having it that Jews cannot legally live in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Maybe you should write them and remind them of their hypocrisy.

 

[icehorse]

it's could be edited to describe the Israeli regime too , as well.

I don't justify to both extrem actions .
it's for sure the abuse and unjustice peace and racist and colonise and seige , creating the resistence and extremism .

Israeli regime want a peace by force (threat) , peace by breaking what already deal about , their practice this rule with palestinians "let's make a deal for what we already we dealed about ".

the first rule to start the negotiation of peace , is by admit it's racist ,

so I guess you see from one angle .

After WW I, the British created several countries from the land that the Turks had controlled for 400 years. At this time the Arabs got 95% of the land.

Let's say that the various Arabian leaders in the region gave the West Bank to Israel. Do you think Israel would have future desires to invade the other 95% of the land that Arabs got after WW I?

 

[England my lionheart]

sorry i did not read very well the first post , i just over viewed it


because the Zionsits (israeli) don't keep their word in deals , so they are convince in the resistences (Jihad) instead of peace negotiations (sheep and wolve peace) .

I am with Jihad which aiming the army to defence and remove the abuse "seige" , i don't agree with suicide bombs or rockets ...etc .

so I do agree with Hamas in some actions and don't in others .

I think, they should prepare to defense for them selfs when war happened ,
and they prepare justice peace , when their rights back . (not forced peace as Israel regime want)

as I said before :

the cheap strategy (that done by Israeli army) with Palestians and Leboness by killing the others civilians, to protect my civilians is coward and racist .


they said in the article : "it's waste of time by international conference"

so it's forcelly mean : they got damn it for internations conferences ,and negotiations to get their rights back with deal breakers "

when Israel regime break the deal with Fatah , so Hamas blamed Fatah for wasting the time with deal breakers (Israelis regime) .

We are not talking about an article from a newspaper we are talking about the Hamas charter/covenant,their aims and what they stand for,this of course was imported from Egypt and that fine organisation the Muslim Brotherhoods founder Hassan al Banna and his co pilot sayyid Qutb,read the charter,they don't want peace they want Israel.

 

[Godobeyer]

Yes, Hamas and el-Fatah shouldn't be so "racist" and legally use "apartheid" by officially having it that Jews cannot legally live in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Maybe you should write them and remind them of their hypocrisy.

it's funny when you accuse Hamas and Fatah by hypocrisy .

Hamas and El-fatah are not racist , they are resistences ,

for my opinion and i believe :
the racist and abuse comes from the colonise of Israeli regime (zionism) is the main reason of creat and increase the extrem at muslim world .

don't you know West Bank is partly occupated by Israel ?

for Gaza strip had the hightest population rate in the word ,and it's seiged by Israel .

 

[Godobeyer]

We are not talking about an article from a newspaper we are talking about the Hamas charter/covenant,their aims and what they stand for,this of course was imported from Egypt and that fine organisation the Muslim Brotherhoods founder Hassan al Banna and his co pilot sayyid Qutb,read the charter,they don't want peace they want Israel.

I am not sure about that article .

we know they had some extrem views , so they should change their resistence to become pure resistence, they should prepare for real war , as well for justice peace, don't you know they are facing an extrem views "zionists" and racist regime "Israel" ?


I remember Ismael Haniya when he recieved a jews visitors in Gaza.whom against the zionists

 

[Godobeyer]

After WW I, the British created several countries from the land that the Turks had controlled for 400 years. At this time the Arabs got 95% of the land.

Let's say that the various Arabian leaders in the region gave the West Bank to Israel. Do you think Israel would have future desires to invade the other 95% of the land that Arabs got after WW I?

let's say !!!!
the future is for us , especially when the oil age ends .
in that time the Muslims will control , and becomes real peace between Muslims and jews and Chritians .


let's me post this exemple, to understand the conflict between the zionists and Muslims :

isn't British created USA? and north America invade by the european (before hunders of years ) , so lets suppose in future, the original residences of North America (indians) will had power and weapons,begin to kill and abuse USA citizes , because they want to live alone in their original land.

 

[metis]

it's funny when you accuse Hamas and Fatah by hypocrisy .

Hamas and El-fatah are not racist , they are resistences ,

for my opinion and i believe :
the racist and abuse comes from the colonise of Israeli regime (zionism) is the main reason of creat and increase the extrem at muslim world .

don't you know West Bank is partly occupated by Israel ?

for Gaza strip had the hightest population rate in the word ,and it's seiged by Israel .

I've already read your opinions before, and I see nothing new above with one exception: el-Fatah is not a "resistence" but is the political element running most of the WB.

And as usual, you blame Israel for everything, which is just so nonsensical.