FBI Says Covid-19 Most Likely A Leak From Lab

[John53]

And it's a though lots of people detest the willful spread of disease and death.

Damn left wing commies

 

[Kathryn]

Thank you for the reply. I hear you. You've said a lot of important things, but I want to focus on the 6 in 10 statistic. Those are people who did not get boosted. For those who are fully vaccinated and boosted it's 3.7ish in 10. That's a big difference.

View attachment 72687

This is the actual CDC data. The folks in yellow have are actually vaccinated. That includes a booster. Yes there is a spike in the numbers, but it's not 6 in 10. Source ( link ).

When I went to research this, I can't find anyone claiming the 6 in 10 figure. Some people who believe that the opposition is being silenced might point to this as evidence supporting a conspiracy. But, when I look at it, if the claim is false, then what's being silenced is misinformation.

Where did you hear of / read about this 6 in 10 figure? Whatever the source is for this data should be considered with extreme skepticism. They're not giving you accurate information. But I don't judge you, or them, for believing that the figure is true.

We *do* have a problem with people mistrusting goverment officials and institutions. And that problem is valid, there are a lot of good reasons for that mistrust. Arguably, the way the pandemic was handled made this problem worse. It could be that folks like me, who trust, would have gotten the vaccine and wore our masks without all of the hype. And it could be that the people who needed encouragement were actually pushed away by the manner of the vaccine roll-out and were pushed away by the masking policies. I acknowledge all of that.

But when it comes to the vaccine, there is so much good clear evidence out there that it worked. It did what it needed to do. And that was create space for the public health system to catch up. That was a rapid and urgent need; hospitals were overun and compromised in their capability to deliver life saving treatment to those without covid emergencies, not to mention those with covid emergencies. That is a public health problem that required drastic action by our goverment and instituions. I know this, not from pictures on TV and the internet. I know because we were told by employees of one of the local hospitals. We happen to live in an area very close to one hospital. 2 Drs live on our street, on is an ER Dr. We (my wife and I) also are in the medical/dental community ourselves and heard a similar report from another local Dr. about their hospital.

So, there were dramatic actions taken; they probably did some things right and some things wrong, but, when it came to the vaccine they made the right call at that time accelerating its approval and deployment. Perhaps that time has passed, and now a person doesn't want to accept the side effects in favor of temporary protection. A person might look back and say that the masking and social distance polices, specifically the way they were implemented and the way the public complied with them made no difference. All of that is valid. But at the time, confronted with a public health crisis, those extreme actions were justified. And we can still be confident that the science behind the vaccines is sound. To this day, if a person does not want to be part of a chain of infections that might lead to a compromised individual ending up in the hospital, getting vaccinated and staying boosted is the right thing to do.

Thanks for a sound and reasonable (in my opinion) response. I want to point out some things though.

1) I have given the source of my information regarding the six in ten figure multiple times but I'll give it again:
Why Do Vaccinated People Represent Most COVID-19 Deaths Right Now? It was very easy for me to find.

2) I got the shots and one booster, and I wore a mask and socially distanced, and washed my hands over and over again, and I complied BECAUSE I HAD TO TRUST SOMEONE, and I am into research anyway. I've even said that some of the fixes, in retrospect, were probably overkill or mistakes but I felt like they were honest mistakes made during a crisis.

3) I also live in a neighborhood full of medical personnel, including several doctors. I'll just say that their story differed a lot from your own, but that stands to reason since the rate of disease varied so much across our country.

4) I am still going to call the shots "shots" and not "vaccines" because clearly, while they can apparently be effective in reducing the severity of the illness, they do not apparently prevent it, at least not in my experience (and I'm including many friends and family and acquaintances in that figure). Sorry, I just don't see it. But I still got the two initial shots and one booster. I've told the story of the booster so many times now but I'll say one thing repeatedly - I was sicker with the booster than I was with COVID, which I also ended up with. Hey, I've had it all now, except the latest booster, which I am hesitant to get considering how severe and unrelenting the headache was with the first one, for four days. I should have all sorts of immunity, but I probably don't!

Anyway, thanks for a measured and calm response, and no name calling. I appreciate it.

 

[Kathryn]

And all of those restrictions have since been lifted here. Everything is pretty much back to normal now because the vast majority of people have been vaccinated. It's almost as though the vaccine .... worked!

Sorry - didn't work for me or anyone else I know. The virus mutated, as viruses tend to do, into something more contagious and less deadly.

 

[Kathryn]

Nobody was forced to take the vaccine against their will except perhaps children, who have to be forced to take any vaccine. If you took it, it was because you chose to.

You might find this article interesting. It's about a family of vaccine deniers that was decimated by Covid

View attachment 72677

Trump and Kushner were. They had hoped that the pandemic would do to Democrats what it did to the family above. You may recall that the initial outbreaks were most severe in New York City. Democrats cluster in large cities, Republicans in rural areas.

From Opinion | Trump, Kushner and the cruel calculus that may have doomed COVID-19 testing

"Most troubling of all, perhaps, was a sentiment the expert said a member of Kushner's team expressed: that because the virus had hit blue states hardest, a national plan was unnecessary and would not make sense politically. "The political folks believed that because it was going to be relegated to Democratic states, that they could blame those governors, and that would be an effective political strategy," said the expert."

That died, you mean. Many have been left debilitated with long Covid, many have permanent organ damage, and if you worry about the long term effects of the vaccine, you have more to worry about with the long term effect of a viral infection. The evidence regarding the long-term sequelae of other vaccines that have been in use for decades is that long-term unexpected complications of vaccination are unusual. When severe complications have arisen, such as Guillan-Barre following flu shots in the seventies, the onset was generally within two months and always within six. What is more likely than a long-term complication from a vaccine is a long-term complication from a viral infection. Singles is long varicella-zoster virus (Chicken pox), AIDS is long HIV, cervical cancer is long HPV, Multiple Sclerosis is long EPV (Epstein-Barr Virus), Alzheimer's is long HSV (herpes simple virus), and liver cancer is long HCV (hepatitis).

All of this becomes much less likely in you, since your infection was not as severe or prolonged.


And you not only survived Covid, it was only a minor illness for you, and your risks of long-term complications from your infection was reduced. You were in the (informal) treatment group, the unvaccinated the controls. You did much better. In fact, if the data collected following release of the vaccine had been used to decide if the therapy worked, the study would have been discontinued in a few months, which is what happens when a study is set up for say two years and the treatment and control groups begin diverging dramatically and quickly, and statistical significance has been achieved with a much smaller cohort than was originally thought necessary to determine statistical significance.

And I'm grateful they did. We came out of lockdown after the second injection, in early June, 2021. If they had taken two years longer, then we would have missed two more years of post-pandemic life.

You don't? Don't you know how to decide that? How do we decide that with any therapeutic intervention? At this point, we have even more data than when the vaccines were released.

If the whole nation had been vaccinated, then 10/10 Covid deaths would have been in the vaccinated. It's easy to manipulate statistics to create a false impression.

Sigh. I'm not saying the shots weren't somewhat effective. I'm simply saying I won't call something that does not prevent a disease a VACCINE. I would call them shots, but not vaccines. Heck, I get a flu shot every year - I'll consider getting a COVID shot every year as well. But I'm not going to call it a VACCINE when most people I know who contract COVID HAD THE SHOTS (multiple shots). As I have already shown, the definition of "vaccine" has been changed recently pretty much across the board.

I had such a bad reaction to the last booster that I got, that I am going to wait till there's more research done to get another, apparently yearly, booster. As I've relayed repeatedly, I was sicker with the side effects from the booster than I was with the COVID I got after being "vaccinated and boosted." That really surprised me because I have never had any sort of significant reaction to any vaccine or shot or whatever, and I'm totally up to date on all of the others.

 

[Kathryn]

Actually it might be the case. But with 95% of the elderly being vaccinated at least once, then if the vaccines did not work at all they would be 95% of the deaths from covid among the elderly. With a high enough percentage vaccinated sooner or later there will be more vaccinated people dying than unvaccinated. Just as most people who die in car accidents were wearing seatbelts. That is because the vast majority of people were seatbelts these days. It is not because seatbelts do not work. That 5% of the unvaccinated elderly is a very significant percentage of those that die from Covid.

Actually, as I've stated before (and given links to the information, which you apparently overlooked) more people die UNSEATBELTED in wrecks than seatbelted folks, in spite of over 90 percent of people wearing seatbelts (US). Here, I'll give the links again, hoping you quit stating that misinformation.

Seat Belts: Get the Facts | Transportation Safety | Injury Center | CDC

www.cdc.gov

But wait, there's more, and it's more concise!

Seat Belts | NHTSA

Seatbelts significantly increases your chance of survival during a crash. Seatbelts are the safest choice drivers & passengers can make while driving.

www.nhtsa.gov

 

[Kathryn]

So you feel like you know better than they do.
Great approach to healthcare!



My dad fell off a ladder. He had to go to the hospital and was admitted but couldn't get a room because the hospital was flooded with the unvaccinated dummies of the county.
And do you suppose your or his issue has something to do with how extremely contagious covid is? Do you think your situation was partly due to covids potential for chronic and fatal damage?

You're putting words that I did not say into my mouth. If you keep doing that, I will quit responding to your posts.

 

[Kathryn]

Vaccines have never been full proof. Even the polio vaccine isn't 100% effective at preventing polio. And if you read the fine print the vaccine paperwork does state it does not prevent covid but rather reduces the chances of getting it and reducing the severity of it if you do get it. Ya know, exactly what vaccines do and what people (who don't have partisan rabies) said they'd do.

Listen to me. Please. PLEASE listen to what I am saying. I have never never said that any vaccine is 100 percent effective. I have also said that this particular "vaccine" is apparently not particularly effective in PREVENTING DISEASE, which is what it has claimed. Every single, every single, person I know recently who has gotten sick with COVID, is also "vaccinated and boosted," including me. But don't take it from me, take it from Mayo.

The FDA has approved the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine, now called Comirnaty, to prevent COVID-19 in people age 16 and older. The FDA approved Comirnaty after data found the vaccine is safe and effective. The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine is 91% effective in preventing the COVID-19 virus with symptoms in people age 16 and older.

COVID-19 vaccine myths debunked

It did not prevent COVID 19 WITH SYMPTOMS IN PEOPLE. SIX OUT OF TEN DEATHS WERE IN SO CALLED VACCINATED PEOPLE IN 2022.

Why Do Vaccinated People Represent Most COVID-19 Deaths Right Now? | KFF

This post explores why the share of COVID-19 deaths among those who are vaccinated has risen, Factors include a rising share of the population that is vaccinated, waning immune protection and low uptake of boosters, and changes in immunity among the unvaccinated.

www.kff.org

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I'm simply saying I won't call something that does not prevent a disease a VACCINE.

Medical science considers them vaccines, a vaccine being an antigen introduced into a body to elicit a controlled immune response to prepare a body for subsequent wild infection.

I would call them shots, but not vaccines.

They're both. Shots are lay language for injections, although some people use the word to mean any needle stuck into them whether to push a therapeutic agent, withdraw blood (or pus from an abscess or cerebrospinal fluid via a lumbar puncture), or start an IV.

I'm not saying the shots weren't somewhat effective.

They were very effective. You'll never know just how much they did for you (nor will I or anybody else). Maybe you would have been hospitalized or died. Maybe you would have been weak, cloudy, and short of breath for years. Maybe you would have suffered permanent reduced lung, heart kidney, or brain damage. We know that it did that for millions, but it's difficult to decide in individual cases what was averted.

As I've relayed repeatedly, I was sicker with the side effects from the booster than I was with the COVID I got after being "vaccinated and boosted."

And? Is this an argument against being vaccinated to you?

I have also said that this particular "vaccine" is apparently not particularly effective in PREVENTING DISEASE, which is what it has claimed.

You probably mean infection. For that, we rely on a multitude of interventions in addition to vaccination (masks, social distancing, hand washing, and avoiding crowds especially in confined spaces). There is no claim that the vaccine prevents infection or even illness. Besides preventing severe short-term complications and long-term sequelae, it diminished the severity of infection such that the infected individual shed a smaller viral load and for fewer days, also reducing spread.

Sorry you weren't satisfied with the result you got, but I think you're being myopic here equating your experience of a few days of post-vaccination side-effects and mild symptomatic infection with such extreme failure that you don't want to call it a vaccine. You really could be very sick or dead now without it. You either don't seem to know that or else don't value it. I am grateful to medical science for these vaccines and the rapidity with which they were generated during a pandemic.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Actually, as I've stated before (and given links to the information, which you apparently overlooked) more people die UNSEATBELTED in wrecks than seatbelted folks, in spite of over 90 percent of people wearing seatbelts (US). Here, I'll give the links again, hoping you quit stating that misinformation.

Seat Belts: Get the Facts | Transportation Safety | Injury Center | CDC

www.cdc.gov

But wait, there's more, and it's more concise!

Seat Belts | NHTSA

Seatbelts significantly increases your chance of survival during a crash. Seatbelts are the safest choice drivers & passengers can make while driving.

www.nhtsa.gov

What misinformation? Those articles supported my claims. You appear to have a problem understanding even the works that you linked. They quite often say the opposite of your interpretations.

So please be clear, what was the supposed misinformation in my post?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Sorry - didn't work for me or anyone else I know. The virus mutated, as viruses tend to do, into something more contagious and less deadly.

Really? It did not work for you? You mean that you are dead?

Hey folks!! Ghosts are real!!!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You're putting words that I did not say into my mouth. If you keep doing that, I will quit responding to your posts.

What else is it when we have a world of evidence and still cast doubts?

I have never never said that any vaccine is 100 percent effective. I have also said that this particular "vaccine" is apparently not particularly effective in PREVENTING DISEASE, which is what it has claimed.

Except the evidence shows they also do that well.

COVID-19 Vaccination

COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.

www.cdc.gov

Vaccination can reduce the spread of disease, which helps protect those who get vaccinated and the people around them.
...
Vaccines reduce the risk of COVID-19, including the risk of severe illness and death among people who are fully vaccinated. In addition to data from clinical trials, evidence from real-world vaccine effectiveness studies show that COVID-19 vaccines help protect against COVID-19 infections, with or without symptoms (asymptomatic infections). Vaccine effectiveness against hospitalizations has remained relatively high over time, although it tends to be slightly lower for older adults and for people with weakened immune systems.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Really? It did not work for you? You mean that you are dead?

Hey folks!! Ghosts are real!!!

My mom didn't die and she's unvaccinated. But her oxygen did drop dangerously low, she had a hard time breathing, especially at night, and she was scared to go asleep or to the hospital.
I (vaccinated) just had enough mucus drainage to fill a swimming pool and was severely fatigued and left with minimal energy for 7 or 8 weeks. The first day was the worst and included feeling hot then cold and lots if shivering even under a pile of blankets and not feeling cold. But that was at the end of the first day, which started out like a bit if sinus drainage but kept getting worse until it got to that. But from there on it was just mucus and fatigue, and more plenty enough of both (though my feet my also hurt a lot).

 

[Subduction Zone]

My mom didn't die and she's unvaccinated. But her oxygen did drop dangerously low, she had a hard time breathing, especially at night, and she was scared to go asleep or to the hospital.
I (vaccinated) just had enough mucus drainage to fill a swimming pool and was severely fatigued and left with minimal energy for 7 or 8 weeks. The first day was the worst and included feeling hot then cold and lots if shivering even under a pile of blankets and not feeling cold. But that was at the end of the first day, which started out like a bit if sinus drainage but kept getting worse until it got to that. But from there on it was just mucus and fatigue, and more plenty enough of both (though my feet my also hurt a lot).

The first time I had it I realized that I was sick when I was walking to Safeway. It was about a month before the first vaccinations were even available for health care workers. So clearly unvaxxed. It was fairly cold outside and I got a bad attack of mucus. so bad that all that I could do was to hack and spit all of the way home. It probably looked like a snail trail. Needless to say that I turned around and went home. I was only sick sick (please take me out and shoot me) for three days. I had a pile of blankets on top of me. When I was up I would walk around with my winter coat on and was still cold.


The second time it was about a day of "oh this again". But it was nowhere as near intense.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

(please take me out and shoot me)

Yeah, I'm definitely glad I was vaccinated and endless mucus and fatigue was all I had. The fatigue was about like a very prolonged flair up of fibromyalgia. The mucus, I just don't where it came from without dehydrating and shriveling my body to get all moisture and water to keep it going like it did. I've never had it that had it that bad before.
I definitely don't want that again.

 

[Kathryn]

What else is it when we have a world of evidence and still cast doubts?

Except the evidence shows they also do that well.

COVID-19 Vaccination

COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.

www.cdc.gov

Every single person I know - every single person, and that's actually at least ten - who has had COVID in the past few months has been vaccinated and boosted. So forgive me if I am skeptical.

 

[Kathryn]

Really? It did not work for you? You mean that you are dead?

Hey folks!! Ghosts are real!!!

You know one reason why I'm not dead? Because I am not elderly and have no pre existing conditions. The death rate from COVID world wide was under 1 percent of the population. No one who I know - not one single person I know - who got COVID before or after the shots had it severely or had to be hospitalized. It was like the flu, or not even that bad.

 

[Kathryn]

What misinformation? Those articles supported my claims. You appear to have a problem understanding even the works that you linked. They quite often say the opposite of your interpretations.

So please be clear, what was the supposed misinformation in my post?

I don't know about past 2020 but I do know that in 2020 a higher percentage of people died who were NOT seatbelted than seatbelted and that's the information I linked to. And you keep on saying, and I've already been clear about this, that a higher percentage of people die who are wearing seatbelts than those who aren't.

Here, I'll give you the link again - doubt that you read it the first time:

Seat Belts | NHTSA

Seatbelts significantly increases your chance of survival during a crash. Seatbelts are the safest choice drivers & passengers can make while driving.

www.nhtsa.gov

 

[Kathryn]

Medical science considers them vaccines, a vaccine being an antigen introduced into a body to elicit a controlled immune response to prepare a body for subsequent wild infection.

They're both. Shots are lay language for injections, although some people use the word to mean any needle stuck into them whether to push a therapeutic agent, withdraw blood (or pus from an abscess or cerebrospinal fluid via a lumbar puncture), or start an IV.

They were very effective. You'll never know just how much they did for you (nor will I or anybody else). Maybe you would have been hospitalized or died. Maybe you would have been weak, cloudy, and short of breath for years. Maybe you would have suffered permanent reduced lung, heart kidney, or brain damage. We know that it did that for millions, but it's difficult to decide in individual cases what was averted.

And? Is this an argument against being vaccinated to you?

You probably mean infection. For that, we rely on a multitude of interventions in addition to vaccination (masks, social distancing, hand washing, and avoiding crowds especially in confined spaces). There is no claim that the vaccine prevents infection or even illness. Besides preventing severe short-term complications and long-term sequelae, it diminished the severity of infection such that the infected individual shed a smaller viral load and for fewer days, also reducing spread.

Sorry you weren't satisfied with the result you got, but I think you're being myopic here equating your experience of a few days of post-vaccination side-effects and mild symptomatic infection with such extreme failure that you don't want to call it a vaccine. You really could be very sick or dead now without it. You either don't seem to know that or else don't value it. I am grateful to medical science for these vaccines and the rapidity with which they were generated during a pandemic.

Well, I kind of doubt I'd be dead since 1) the virus has mutated and is now more contagious and less deadly, 2) I am not elderly and have no pre existing conditions, and 3) at the height of the illness, prior to any vaccines or shots, the death rate was less than 1 percent of the world's population, and well below 1 percent of the US population.

Also, do you realize that the definition for vaccine was changed a couple of years ago via both the CDC and various other sources? Prior to being changed, the definition everywhere said that a vaccine PREVENTED DISEASE.

 

[Kathryn]

Sorry you weren't satisfied with the result you got, but I think you're being myopic here equating your experience of a few days of post-vaccination side-effects and mild symptomatic infection with such extreme failure that you don't want to call it a vaccine. You really could be very sick or dead now without it. You either don't seem to know that or else don't value it. I am grateful to medical science for these vaccines and the rapidity with which they were generated during a pandemic.

I am very, very grateful overall for 21st century medicine. I am very grateful to live now rather than earlier in history. But like I said, I doubt very seriously that COVID would kill or hospitalize me regardless of any shots - and I already gave my reasons so I won't repeat myself, which I find that I am doing anyway - LOL.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Every single person I know - every single person, and that's actually at least ten - who has had COVID in the past few months has been vaccinated and boosted. So forgive me if I am skeptical.

Skeptical of what? That the vaccine reduces the severity of infection such that far fewer people are hospitalized or die? That's a fact. Skeptical that the vaccine can prevent infection? It can't. No vaccine can. The immune system doesn't defend against an infectious agent until it's in the body. Skeptical that infection never leads to disease in the vaccinated? Nobody informed disagrees.

I kind of doubt I'd be dead

Me, too. The odds were with you, just as they are in Russian Roulette if you only pull once or twice. I was in my mid-sixties when the pandemic began, so the odds of living were probably not as good for me, but probably still over 95%. But even a 1% risk of death is too much to accept if it can be reduced.

Also, do you realize that the definition for vaccine was changed a couple of years ago via both the CDC and various other sources? Prior to being changed, the definition everywhere said that a vaccine PREVENTED DISEASE.

That would be a poor definition of a vaccine if by preventing disease one means more than mitigation (reduced severity and frequency of infection). Some vaccines prevent disease, some merely make it much less likely or much less severe. A proper definition of a vaccine is an antigen introduced in health to educate the immune system and generate memory T-cells familiar with the antigen that are ready to generate an army of effector t-cells upon recognition of reinfection.

So what do you want to call the anti-coronavirus vaccines if not vaccines? They are therapeutically active, so they're not placebo. They're not analgesics, antidepressants, or antihypertensives. Where would you like to categorize them if not as vaccines?

And do you also consider the influenza vaccine not a vaccine because it does about the same as the Covid vaccines?

And finally, what's your main message here? That the vaccines don't work? That that didn't prevent a slew of morbidity and mortality? That they shouldn't be called vaccines?