Fear of God?

[strikeviperMKII]

show me the dots captain.

Okay, here's three:

no i am not,
you do realize needless suffering exists, don't you?

children born with aids do not choose to be born with aids
children born into an abusive home do not choose to be abused.

i guess you prefer celestial dictatorship...i don't.
some accept chaos and improvise others don't accept the chaos and need to be told what to do.

First, I would like to think that the pain we go through is sometimes needless, but I can't make that judgment.
Second, no, they don't choose that pain. There are places where pain cannot be avoided. But as I said, misery and pain are two different things. Misery will always cause pain, but pain doesn't have to cause misery.
Third, if you want a dictatorship, go to the Vatican. They don't know what God is anyway.

so you think nothing they were saying was true?

EVERYTHING they said was true. That's why it proves my point. Ignorance doesn't equal faith. You can talk about how bad ignorance is all you want, but you can't equate that to faith. It's like saying apples are oranges because they are pears. It's illogical.

 

[waitasec]

Okay, here's three:

those quotes do not imply that i believe there is a real ultimatum.
if anything, it confirms the reasoning why i think chaos is king.

First, I would like to think that the pain we go through is sometimes needless, but I can't make that judgment.
Second, no, they don't choose that pain. There are places where pain cannot be avoided. But as I said, misery and pain are two different things. Misery will always cause pain, but pain doesn't have to cause misery.

they are miserable. what do you call having a mother watch her children die in their own fecal matter?

EVERYTHING they said was true. That's why it proves my point. Ignorance doesn't equal faith. You can talk about how bad ignorance is all you want, but you can't equate that to faith. It's like saying apples are oranges because they are pears. It's illogical.

faith says god is the answer to unsolvable questions (static), however overtime those questions were answered through science (motion).
i agree. science and faith are apple and oranges.
one is stagnant the other moves forward.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

those quotes do not imply that i believe there is a real ultimatum.
if anything, it confirms the reasoning why i think chaos is king.

They show why you are so resistant to expanding your understanding.

they are miserable. what do you call having a mother watch her children die in their own fecal matter?

They are suffering, I won't dispute that. Giving such examples over and over won't change the fact that pain and misery are not the same thing. Until you understand the difference, you won't think so, but there is a difference.

faith says god is the answer to unsolvable questions (static),

Nope, it doesn't. Thank you for proving my point again. Faith says God is the unsolvable question, not the answer. Unsolvable questions don't have answers. That's why their unsolvable.

however overtime those questions were answered through science (motion).

Which is irrelevant, as I said.

i agree. science and faith are apple and oranges.
one is stagnant the other moves forward.

Ignorance is the enemy of both faith and science. That I agree with.

 

[waitasec]

Nope, it doesn't. Thank you for proving my point again. Faith says God is the unsolvable question, not the answer. Unsolvable questions don't have answers. That's why their unsolvable.

well if you are going to say god is concerned with my life, science has proven that to be false. if there is a god it is not benevolent, my life is not taken into consideration

Which is irrelevant, as I said.

it is relevant, especially if you are going to label god as a being that poses an ultimatum

Ignorance is the enemy of both faith and science. That I agree with.

yeah we agree

 

[strikeviperMKII]

well if you are going to say god is concerned with my life, science has proven that to be false. if there is a god it is not benevolent, my life is not taken into consideration

In what ways would a god manifest such concern? What would that look like?

it is relevant, especially if you are going to label god as a being that poses an ultimatum

I already said it wasn't an ultimatum...which is why the point is irrelevant.

 

[waitasec]

In what ways would a god manifest such concern? What would that look like?

through ancient writings...the bible the koran and so forth

I already said it wasn't an ultimatum...which is why the point is irrelevant.

ok i'll give you that. how about a god that offers eternal salvation...

no matter how you put it you're still labeling the unknowable, aren't you?
and to suggest it is benevolent (for god loved us so much, he gave his only begotten son), or concerned (choose life) is an extraordinary unsupported claim

 

[strikeviperMKII]

through ancient writings...the bible the koran and so forth

That's it?

ok i'll give you that. how about a god that offers eternal salvation...

Pointing the way and offering are two different things. Why would God offer something we already have?

no matter how you put it you're still labeling the unknowable, aren't you?
and to suggest it is benevolent (for god loved us so much, he gave his only begotten son), or concerned (choose life) is an extraordinary unsupported claim

We are labeling the unknowable. We have to label it. That's the only way we can understand it. Only for very brief spurts of time (seconds) can we just be and not label anything. God is that state of being.
The claim is not a claim at all, but a statement of experience. It does not need to be supported because it is experience. We are not looking for truth.
Strangely, it is only when we cease looking for truth that we actually find it.

 

[waitasec]

That's it?

how else do you suppose?
the tradition of belief in god or religious faith has been handed down over and over again because of the lack of scientific knowledge.

Pointing the way and offering are two different things. Why would God offer something we already have?

how can one know that? offering or pointing the way to what? from what we have experienced, we are here for a brief moment in time. that's it. this superstition is offering something we don't have and that is
1-knowledge
2-eternal time
to think this uncaused cause is concerned about us and the only way to eternal salvation is through faith is nonsense. life is indifferent, life goes on with or without us
(if you are going to say, 'life is a choice" read my next response...)

We are labeling the unknowable. We have to label it. That's the only way we can understand it.

we don't have to label the unknowable, that idea comes from the tradition of religious faith and we've been holding on to that tradition because of our limited knowledge through the limitations of our natural senses. we can now only catch a larger glimpse of our surroundings since we've been able to look deeper into the micro world and to the cosmos. we see a little bit more than what we could then. the only way to understand it is to say, it is unknowable and we have limitations. religious faith by way of these ancient traditions claim the contrary. it is laid out in the ancient texts as knowable and unlimited.
for one to truly understand the unknowable is to say, i have limited knowledge and the knowledge i get is from what i see in nature. and thus far indifference is what i've experienced, a very humbling experience. so we can choose to be humble in order to live.

Only for very brief spurts of time (seconds) can we just be and not label anything. God is that state of being.

i would say humility is that state of being because we understand our limitations

The claim is not a claim at all, but a statement of experience. It does not need to be supported because it is experience.

the experience of humility...knowing we cannot possibly know, is that experience

We are not looking for truth.

exactly, religious faith is not looking for the truth because it claims to be the truth... religious faith the furthest thing from humility.

Strangely, it is only when we cease looking for truth that we actually find it.

don't you think that happens when one stops labeling the unknowable?
when you label, you put limitations on the unknowable and limit it's options through your limited understanding.
humility is key, religion is not humility. religious faith exults. that's it's purpose, to put us in the center of the universe.
even the bible says that;
Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall.
do i need to bring up mother theresa again?

 

[strikeviperMKII]

It seems to me that you are in one hand, doing exactly what religion teaches, and in the other, condemning it because people didn't learn the same lesson that you learned. Religion, faith, spirituality all teach humility. If you want a bible quote from that, look. There's quite a few of them. Religion tells us to be humble, yet you think it doesn't because the people in religion don't really understand that.
Religion as it exists in the Vatican today, is as far from its roots as possible. They are an institution, and as such, cannot be humble. It goes against power and control. Why do you think that Jesus was so against the scribes and priests of his day? When he came, why did he go to John the Baptist to be baptized (in a river, no less) instead of a church?
And by no means is this story unique. Many cultures teach this, in different ways, but they teach the same lesson. Few learn it, but it is nevertheless worth teaching.

I don't think we disagree at all. You see faith as the institution of the Church, which is prideful, power-hungry, and corrupt. That, as I have said before, is not faith. That is the Church. It is a worldly thing. Again, there is a bible passage against such things.

 

[outhouse]

To prevent the derailing of a thread on the merits of biological evolution, I am re-posting the following quote here...



It is my strong opinion that a God who demands fear from his followers is unworthy of worship, and in fact, reflects an anthropomorphic God that contains the very human destructive emotions of vengeance, hate, jealousy and low self esteem.

in my opinion, you only see ancient mans imagination.

the hebrews stole there drempt up god from a combination of previous pagan beliefs and storys that were known to be in that exact area at that exact time. imagine that

thats why you see a childish god, he was made by childish primitive man who didnt know any better and its perfectly obvious with a open mind.

 

[waitasec]

It seems to me that you are in one hand, doing exactly what religion teaches, and in the other, condemning it because people didn't learn the same lesson that you learned. Religion, faith, spirituality all teach humility. If you want a bible quote from that, look. There's quite a few of them. Religion tells us to be humble, yet you think it doesn't because the people in religion don't really understand that.
Religion as it exists in the Vatican today, is as far from its roots as possible. They are an institution, and as such, cannot be humble. It goes against power and control. Why do you think that Jesus was so against the scribes and priests of his day? When he came, why did he go to John the Baptist to be baptized (in a river, no less) instead of a church?
And by no means is this story unique. Many cultures teach this, in different ways, but they teach the same lesson. Few learn it, but it is nevertheless worth teaching.

I don't think we disagree at all. You see faith as the institution of the Church, which is prideful, power-hungry, and corrupt. That, as I have said before, is not faith. That is the Church. It is a worldly thing. Again, there is a bible passage against such things.

i thought i made myself pretty clear. the mere idea that we have ancient writings from the gods is evidence of our own arrogance. of course there will be wisdom found in these books, it wouldn't work if you didn't have truths woven with untruths. why do you think most are too blind to see the hypocrisy mother theresa displayed? because most of us, who believe in a divine deity is actually concerned with us, stop searching. they have the answers...when they are looking through a peep hole expecting what they see is small enough to fit into their limited capacity. that is arrogance. while others look through that same peep hole and realize how little they are. that is humility.

 

[Blackheart]

It seems to me that you are in one hand, doing exactly what religion teaches, and in the other, condemning it because people didn't learn the same lesson that you learned. Religion, faith, spirituality all teach humility. If you want a bible quote from that, look. There's quite a few of them. Religion tells us to be humble, yet you think it doesn't because the people in religion don't really understand that.
Religion as it exists in the Vatican today, is as far from its roots as possible. They are an institution, and as such, cannot be humble. It goes against power and control. Why do you think that Jesus was so against the scribes and priests of his day? When he came, why did he go to John the Baptist to be baptized (in a river, no less) instead of a church?
And by no means is this story unique. Many cultures teach this, in different ways, but they teach the same lesson. Few learn it, but it is nevertheless worth teaching.

I don't think we disagree at all. You see faith as the institution of the Church, which is prideful, power-hungry, and corrupt. That, as I have said before, is not faith. That is the Church. It is a worldly thing. Again, there is a bible passage against such things.

I couldnt have said it better myself but then why are you a Catholic if you know this?

 

[strikeviperMKII]

I couldn't have said it better myself but then why are you a Catholic if you know this?

I don't really know why that question is relevant. Being Catholic is about being Catholic. You are, or you aren't. Being Catholic doesn't change. We do.

I am Catholic at times, and I am not in others. Because I say I am indicates that I wish to be, but nothing else.

Also, I think you have a slight misconception of what 'Catholic' is.