Fear of God?

[waitasec]

Mine. That experience includes my experience of others.

what, how can you experience others experiences?
that's being presumptuous... wouldn't you say?

 

[strikeviperMKII]

no it seemed obvious, we were talking about physically dying when you stop breathing and your heart stops pumping...

You were. I wasn't.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

what, how can you experience others experiences?
that's being presumptuous... wouldn't you say?

I said my experience of others, not that I know their experiences.

 

[waitasec]

You were. I wasn't.

why would you say this?

one can live their life, but die without having lived at all.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

why would you say this?

Because a person can be death and alive at the same time. Not possible with physical death, but with what I'm talking about, it is.

 

[waitasec]

I said my experience of others, not that I know their experiences.

you're moving goal posts captain...
you cannot experience what you presume someone is going through.
and it's not what you said...you said in my experience...here, let me remind you.

in my experience when we see someone who we think has a 'holier than thou' attitude, there is not something wrong with the person speaking, but ourselves. Most likely, there is something we do not wish to admit to ourselves about ourselves.
But, this may not be the case here.

I am just speaking from experience. Take it or leave it.

maybe this is something you do not wish to admit to yourself...
you're pussyfooting around the real issue; faith in god is actually faith in yourself.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

you're moving goal posts captain...
you cannot experience what you presume someone is going through.

I can so. That is all we can experience of other people; what we presume they are going through. That's it. Whether what presume and what they are actually going through are the same is a different issue all together. That being said, when you understand how you have worked through roadblocks, you will know when others meet them because you've been there before. Experience of self is a very powerful thing.

and it's not what you said...you said in my experience...here, let me remind you.

Yes, it has been my experience. My own as well as what I have observed in others. Is this so hard to accept?

maybe this is something you do not wish to admit to yourself...
you're pussyfooting around the real issue; faith in god is actually faith in yourself.

I thought that too at one point in time. The trouble is that when you start delving into tough issues, you can't rely on yourself. You'll try and trick yourself out of doing things that you really don't want to do, and you won't even know it. Facing our fears, especially ones that we don't even know are there, is very difficult. God helps us to see what we don't see, and what we do not wish to see in ourselves.

 

[tumbleweed41]

That's just your own opinion brother! Do you have a problem if God demands fear?

Yes, it reflects human weakness in that concept of God.

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" -Phil.2:12
See that? Its not my own opinion its God's word...

All you have done is illustrate that man wrote words to reflect their personal fear of the unknown.

 

[waitasec]

Because a person can be death and alive at the same time. Not possible with physical death, but with what I'm talking about, it is.

ok. so what does this have to do with the everlasting life in john 3:16?

everlasting life is the consequence of said condition...belief, right?

i asked you...

Originally Posted by waitasec
if you love someone would you set up a condition where they would be tormented as retaliation for lack of faith in you?

Originally Posted by strikeviperMKII
Without death, we cannot know life. That being said, one can live their life, but die without having lived at all.

you changed the subject...
how does faith/belief in jesus, in the context of john 3:16 explain that gods love is unconditional when he places conditions?
gods love is conditional because there are conditions, simple.
why would a loving parent place a condition to where separation and torment would be a consequence for not fulfilling the condition?

i claimed that gods love was conditional. you disagreed, because in order for his creation to have everlasting life, the condition was to believe which has nothing to do with unconditional love. so one more time.

if you love someone would you set up a condition where they would be tormented as retaliation for lack of faith in you? we are talking about john 3:16...why would jesus want everlasting separation from his creation because they second guess him?

if you are not going to answer the question, don't bother.
there's really no point in changing the subject unless the point is you can't

 

[waitasec]

If I came across that way, it was not my intention. in my experience, when we see someone who we think has a 'holier than thou' attitude, there is not something wrong with the person speaking, but ourselves. Most likely, there is something we do not wish to admit to ourselves about ourselves.
But, this may not be the case here. I am just speaking from experience. Take it or leave it.

see here, you are saying you are morally superior...because i'm accusing you of having the "holier than thou" attitude. and the reason i would think that is because there is something wrong with me and it's something i do not wish to admit to myself. but see, this whole entire argument is because you are moving goal posts. i ask you direct questions and you're continually dodging them.
why is that? :areyoucra

 

[strikeviperMKII]

ok. so what does this have to do with the everlasting life in john 3:16?

everlasting life is the consequence of said condition...belief, right?

Everlasting life is the same as belief, not a condition of it. You receive it in the same sense that you receive a gift from yourself to yourself.

you changed the subject...
how does faith/belief in jesus, in the context of john 3:16 explain that gods love is unconditional when he places conditions?
gods love is conditional because there are conditions, simple.
why would a loving parent place a condition to where separation and torment would be a consequence for not fulfilling the condition?

It is a consequence of not choosing life. When the torment is a consequence of a choice that we made, how is that a condition? We chose something different, and got what that choice led to. God didn't cause that.

And as I said, the passage says 'For God so loved the world...' meaning love already existed. It wasn't 'For God wanted to love the world' or 'For God wanted to see who would believe in him so he could then love them'.

See what I'm saying?

i claimed that gods love was conditional. you disagreed, because in order for his creation to have everlasting life, the condition was to believe which has nothing to do with unconditional love. so one more time.

if you love someone would you set up a condition where they would be tormented as retaliation for lack of faith in you? we are talking about john 3:16...why would jesus want everlasting separation from his creation because they second guess him?

if you are not going to answer the question, don't bother.
there's really no point in changing the subject unless the point is you can't

I have answered this already, but I will attempt to do so again.

A simple answer is Jesus didn't want it. God doesn't want it. He says 'I give you life and death, the blessing and the affliction, so that you may choose life.' That should answer your first question. If you believe that life can come without death, pleasure without pain, happiness without sadness, then you are living in a fantasy world. You cannot have one side of the coin without the other.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I find it is prudent to have a healthy fear of those who fear god.

 

[waitasec]

Everlasting life is the same as belief, not a condition of it. You receive it in the same sense that you receive a gift from yourself to yourself.

"whoever believes in him " is the condition for ever lasting life.

It is a consequence of not choosing life. When the torment is a consequence of a choice that we made, how is that a condition? We chose something different, and got what that choice led to. God didn't cause that.

god created the consequence of everlasting through the condition

And as I said, the passage says 'For God so loved the world...' meaning love already existed. It wasn't 'For God wanted to love the world' or 'For God wanted to see who would believe in him so he could then love them'.
See what I'm saying?

when i read that, it's not that god loved us 1st but how much based on the condition of belief.

I have answered this already, but I will attempt to do so again.

A simple answer is Jesus didn't want it. God doesn't want it. He says 'I give you life and death, the blessing and the affliction, so that you may choose life.' That should answer your first question.

some have accepted the realities of life and death
others have not...

If you believe that life can come without death, pleasure without pain, happiness without sadness, then you are living in a fantasy world. You cannot have one side of the coin without the other.

well you haven't been reading my replies, have you?
i never implied this. it's just another ad hominem of yours
nice try, but i won't fall for it this time captain.

there is no sense in debating with you if you keep moving goal posts
what's the point?
you must be a lawyer...:sarcastic

 

[PolyHedral]

You cannot have one side of the coin without the other.

There are some species of jellyfish which do not naturally die, ever. That sounds like having one side without the other.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

well you haven't been reading my replies, have you?
i never implied this. it's just another ad hominem of yours
nice try, but i won't fall for it this time captain.

I will admit I may have misunderstood your implications.

"whoever believes in him " is the condition for ever lasting life.

And your idea of believe is what?

god created the consequence of everlasting through the condition

I believe I said this already.

19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live
Deuteronomy 30:19

A choice. Not an ultimatum. To live is not simply to exist. To live is to be. To be is to choose.
Do you not understand this point, or do you just not believe me?
My guess is the latter, but that is just my observation.

when i read that, it's not that god loved us 1st but how much based on the condition of belief.

And why do you see it that way?

some have accepted the realities of life and death
others have not...

Do you honestly believe that when I say 'enternal life' I mean immortal?

 

[strikeviperMKII]

There are some species of jellyfish which do not naturally die, ever. That sounds like having one side without the other.

I don't think you've understood the point.

 

[PolyHedral]

I don't think you've understood the point.

You trying to say that death is an intrinsic part of life. Aren't you?

 

[waitasec]

And your idea of believe is what?

my idea of "believe" is the condition
it's pretty clear, i don't know why your avoiding the obviousness of it.

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

I believe I said this already.

19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live
Deuteronomy 30:19

i thought we were talking about john 3?
when god says choose life, he's referring to the old covenant, so really this has nothing to do with the verse about the new covenant, jesus.

A choice. Not an ultimatum. To live is not simply to exist. To live is to be. To be is to choose.

well i am alive, i exist. otherwise what you are implying that life is just an illusion for those who do not believe... that comes off as, well how do i put this nicely, you're giving yourself an unmerited, unjustified degree of importance.

back to john 3...to believe is the ultimatum.
an ultimatum is a final demand, the rejection of which may lead to a compelling action by the party presenting the ultimatum.

what is the compelling action god is presenting, everlasting life or to be condemned based on if you believe or not?
consider this,
unconditional love does not place a condition of it being reciprocated.
faith is an expression of love. i have faith in my child, in hopes that he will make the right choices because i love him unconditionally. i will not turn away if he second guess my point of view on any given issue.
sure god may have loved us first, however, in order for us to experience his expression of his love, everlasting life, one needs to have faith in it.
a condition...
btw,
where in the bible does t say god loves unconditionally?
sure it says that god loves us, but under what conditions...?

 

[strikeviperMKII]

my idea of "believe" is the condition
it's pretty clear, i don't know why your avoiding the obviousness of it.

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

You didn't answer my question. I didn't ask if you think 'believe' was the condition, I asked what you think believe meant.

i thought we were talking about john 3?
when god says choose life, he's referring to the old covenant, so really this has nothing to do with the verse about the new covenant, jesus.

The choice remains. The options have taken different form, but the choice remains.

well i am alive, i exist. otherwise what you are implying that life is just an illusion for those who do not believe... that comes off as, well how do i put this nicely, you're giving yourself an unmerited, unjustified degree of importance.

Existence is a property. Living is a choice. Believing is the distinction.
Again I ask, what do you think believing is?

what is the compelling action god is presenting, everlasting life or to be condemned based on if you believe or not?
consider this,
unconditional love does not place a condition of it being reciprocated.
faith is an expression of love. i have faith in my child, in hopes that he will make the right choices because i love him unconditionally. i will not turn away if he second guess my point of view on any given issue.

And you believe God does?

sure god may have loved us first, however, in order for us to experience his expression of his love, everlasting life, one needs to have faith in it.
a condition...

In order to experience something we must experience it. We don't have to have faith that the something we are experiencing is the thing we are experiencing.
We have to recognize it for what it is, however.

btw,
where in the bible does t say god loves unconditionally?
sure it says that god loves us, but under what conditions...?

You need a 2000 year old book to tell you these things? Is God the bible, or is God, God?

 

[waitasec]

You didn't answer my question. I didn't ask if you think 'believe' was the condition, I asked what you think believe meant.

faith in things unproven.

The choice remains. The options have taken different form, but the choice remains.

i am alive..no choice there. did you choose to be born?

Existence is a property. Living is a choice. Believing is the distinction.

existence is being, living is being, believing is a state of mind

And you believe God does?

i don't believe the god of the bible is

In order to experience something we must experience it. We don't have to have faith that the something we are experiencing is the thing we are experiencing.
We have to recognize it for what it is, however.

i am alive that is my experience of being alive and i recognize it as life.

You need a 2000 year old book to tell you these things? Is God the bible, or is God, God?

another ad hominem... you can't help yourself can you?
if you're going to present scripture, choose life, why can't you try to find one that supports your unsubstantiated claim of god's unconditional love?
hence the ad hominem, you can't.