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Fear of God?

Starsoul

Truth
T

It is my strong opinion that a God who demands fear from his followers is unworthy of worship, and in fact, reflects an anthropomorphic God that contains the very human destructive emotions of vengeance, hate, jealousy and low self esteem.
That is one way to perceive it.

The way i see it, I fear the displeasure of the One I love the most (Allah), who has declared His love for me, seventy times more than a mother loves her own child. (The analogy of the love between a child and a mother has been given the status of a very Strong Love In my religion, since going by a natural instinct Mothers can do Anything for their children, well when they love their children that is, not the abandoning mothers).

Even our mothers are strict in our upbringing because they mean the best for us and want to make well rounded individuals out of us who are able to stand up on their own in this competitive world, (well, most of the times.) Would you call your mother full of vengeance, jealousy and low self esteem if she is such a mother?

And we fear even the displeasure of our parents (if we are good people), even though that fear may restrict us from chasing our own desires.

We also fear the annoyance of our Loved ones, and we want to stay away from things that highly annoy them, and atleast try our best not to be caught seen doing them. The love of A God is similar, just Bigger.

It isn't a requirement of God to be feared, It is a NEED of man to fear someone greater than his own self, in order to atleast fear being taken to task for his actions , if nothing else, even though if he's the most powerful man on Earth and can grant himself immunity from all laws, he cannot escape God's wrath for having spread injustice.

Fear Can never come before love, And If you haven't really loved a Deity, You just don't know what Love is like.
 

strikeviperMKII

Well-Known Member
how can you know?

You cannot. It can only be experienced.

because christ commanded his followers to...sell everything you have and give to the poor.
the first will be last and the last first. christ was all about deeds. helping the needy.

If the only reason you do something is because someone told you to, it means nothing.

huh? you said life is meaningless...

To think that our existence, as small as it is, actually means something in the grand scheme of the universe, is arrogance. It means something only when we chose for it to mean something. If we do not choose, or stop choosing, the meaning goes away.

no because a people who didn't understand science the way we do now, said so...

Some of them had a immature understanding of god as well.

who said i was abstaining, i really enjoyed that shrimp taco. :p
i complain when believers think they are morally superior when they are not.

You should complain.

none of us are perfect.

Quite so.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
You cannot. It can only be experienced.

thats the thing, you come across as though you have

If the only reason you do something is because someone told you to, it means nothing.
who told you that you need faith in god? where did that ideology come from?

To think that our existence, as small as it is, actually means something in the grand scheme of the universe, is arrogance. It means something only when we chose for it to mean something. If we do not choose, or stop choosing, the meaning goes away.

well in the grand scheme of things, for me at least, we're insignificant. life goes on and really doesn't consider your feelings. so it looks like the believers are the ones who have a narcissistic view of themselves once they choose to think their life has any meaning.

Some of them had a immature understanding of god as well.
because of their lack of knowledge in science

You should complain.

as long as the supposed morally superiorstill believe their spiritual beliefs can infringe on the inalienable rights of others then i will continue to complain.

Quite so.
what, we agree!! :D
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Weve always had the knowledge of science.

not to the extent we do now. come on now. do you think these people had any clue about cancer? today we are able to cure it in a lot of cases, but for these people it was a curse.

The only difference now is that some people think it can actually replace religion even though science is massively incomplete and proves to be wrong much more than it is right.

it's ok to be wrong, you can't learn anything unless you make mistakes.
questioning, doubting and debating is nothing to fear, it is an innate quality within all of us. we are not subjected to live in a celestial dictatorship because of these innate qualities.

If you want to base your knowledge on a constantly changing set of guesses then prioritise science and allow the wise to keep their faith. Why are you so afraid of religion?

i'm against it because religion offers an answer that defies logic and reason. religion gives the green light to the nutty ones who believe they are morally superior compared to the non believers. because they think they can do a moral act that a non believer cannot...and i have yet to see this act. all i see instead is the spreading of tyranny through fear.
and as i pointed out to you earlier with the example of cancer the quest for knowledge is essential.
if you haven't noticed, constant change is a part of progress, life and learning. it's when one stops learning because they think they KNOW and are WISE is when they become stagnant, which is the opposite of freedom but goes well with a bottle of fear.
 

strikeviperMKII

Well-Known Member
thats the thing, you come across as though you have

I have. I don't claim it makes me better than everyone else, though I do know it has helped me become a better person.

who told you that you need faith in god? where did that ideology come from?

Anyone who told me I needed to believe in God, I blew off. I didn't pay attention to them, and passed off their beliefs for what I thought they were. It wasn't until I told myself I needed to have faith that I had it, even though I had no idea what I needed to have faith in, or what that looked like.

well in the grand scheme of things, for me at least, we're insignificant. life goes on and really doesn't consider your feelings. so it looks like the believers are the ones who have a narcissistic view of themselves once they choose to think their life has any meaning.

People who believe as you describe it have created their own reality. They have become the very god they believe in. That's really the only outcome.
Religions, at least many religions, teach to become the creation, rather than the creator. As you have put it, believers in fact do the opposite of this.

because of their lack of knowledge in science

And God...

as long as the supposed morally superior still believe their spiritual beliefs can infringe on the inalienable rights of others then i will continue to complain.

As you should.

what, we agree!! :D

:yes:
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
I have. I don't claim it makes me better than everyone else, though I do know it has helped me become a better person.

so you physically died, pronounced dead?

Anyone who told me I needed to believe in God, I blew off. I didn't pay attention to them, and passed off their beliefs for what I thought they were. It wasn't until I told myself I needed to have faith that I had it, even though I had no idea what I needed to have faith in, or what that looked like.

but see, this idea of faith came from outside sources nonetheless

People who believe as you describe it have created their own reality. They have become the very god they believe in. That's really the only outcome.
Religions, at least many religions, teach to become the creation, rather than the creator. As you have put it, believers in fact do the opposite of this.

:yes:

And God...

it seems as though god was created as a way of explaining the seemingly unexplainable

As you should.

:yes:
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
Fear is initially a negative emotion that brings one suffering, and true belief in the gods is not motivated by fear. That being said, it wouldn't be incorrect to fear the gods in a respectful way, knowing that they are more powerful then us.
 

strikeviperMKII

Well-Known Member
so you physically died, pronounced dead?

That's not what I said. The person I am now is not the person I was. When that changed occurred, the old me died, and the new me was born.

This concept is not new, and was never intended to describe physical death. Physical death, is not very important.

but see, this idea of faith came from outside sources nonetheless

I wouldn't say that. People help you. They guide you, and generally they do so the way they were guided. The ideas of faith were not something the someone said one say 'hey, this seems like a good idea, let's do it'. They evolved and grew as humans did.

it seems as though god was created as a way of explaining the seemingly unexplainable.

If it is unexplainable, it cannot be explained...so how could God explain it? God represents the unknown. God is the unknown. It's not like God is under the veil of what humans don't understand and gradually has to retreat as we learn more. I find that idea laughable. God has no need to hide himself from us.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
When you come from death into life, it is no longer speculation.

how would you know this?

You cannot. It can only be experience
thats the thing, you come across as though you have

i thought we were communicating in english...
why would you continue with your dishonesty with this following response?

I have. I don't claim it makes me better than everyone else, though I do know it has helped me become a better person.

oh really, what moral act can you do that i can't?

so you physically died, pronounced dead?

That's not what I said.
yes you did.

The person I am now is not the person I was. When that changed occurred, the old me died, and the new me was born.

i have some news for you, this change happens when you take responsibility for yourself... it happens all the time

you know this double talk is absolutely ridiculous.
am i speaking chinese to you or what?
you could have saved a lot of time simply saying
"faith changed my perspective"
instead you try to come across as though your morally superior by trying to be deceitfully humble... actually it's not surprising at all, it's pretty typical
dishonest holier then thou rhetoric.
are you that desperate to make a silly point?
sad, really sad.
 

Blackheart

Active Member
not to the extent we do now. come on now. do you think these people had any clue about cancer? today we are able to cure it in a lot of cases, but for these people it was a curse.
Well as you probabbly know, according to science, cancer was extremely rare in those days so they probabbly didnt have any need for that knowledge (or maybe it was rare because they did have a cure- who knows).

it's ok to be wrong, you can't learn anything unless you make mistakes.
questioning, doubting and debating is nothing to fear, it is an innate quality within all of us. we are not subjected to live in a celestial dictatorship because of these innate qualities.
It is ok to be wrong but what isnt ok is for athiests to insist that science is the validity test to anything and everything. One thing science should show us is that we mere mortals are fallable and that to say that anything that defies science must be wrong, because science cant fathom it, is illogical, pathetic and ignorant.

i'm against it because religion offers an answer that defies logic and reason. religion gives the green light to the nutty ones who believe they are morally superior compared to the non believers. because they think they can do a moral act that a non believer cannot...and i have yet to see this act. all i see instead is the spreading of tyranny through fear.
So let me get this straight....You dont like religion because some people use it to make them superior? So what do you think science does? There are so many people on here that think they know the answers to the universe because they have read a paper written by a limited, like minded athiest. This to me seems a little arrogant but not as arrogant as those that have used science to establish their superiority as human beings. Take for example the scientific justification for racial dominace due to scientists publishing papers stating that white brains are more developed than black brains (one of which I understand spent 2 years in prison for his unsubstantiated and racially motivated claims once it was discovered that he simply lied). Or how about the days of eugenics when people such as Hitler demonstarted how the jews, blacks etc were inferior and therefore natural selection required their extermination.
There are many more examples but guess what...Im not so short sighted that I would blame the institution of science for this but rather concede that there are people out there that will use whatever vehicle they can for their own selfish gains. I call these dangerous people but I dont blame science as you should not blame religion for the freaks that abuse it.

and as i pointed out to you earlier with the example of cancer the quest for knowledge is essential.
if you haven't noticed, constant change is a part of progress, life and learning. it's when one stops learning because they think they KNOW and are WISE is when they become stagnant, which is the opposite of freedom but goes well with a bottle of fear.
Religion does not attempt to substitute science anywhere near the way in which science attempts to substitue religion. Medical science is a great thing and most of its findings are throughouly tested, obviously because it has to be proven effective and safe. The problem is the theoretical science, which cannot be proven, yet still seeks to pretend that it has all the answers and sometimes appears to be deliberately trying to disprove the bible. To me that is not real science. Please, I dont want to get into another debate about evolution verses religion now as I have come to accept that athiests think differently from me and this is near impossible to resolve. What I would like to suggest though is that you simply allow room for the fact that not everything can be scientifically tested at this point in our history which means that there are some scientific unkowns. This is where the religious books merely inform us of what the ancients all over the world knew... The Truth Is Out There lol.
 
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waitasec

Veteran Member
Well as you probabbly know, according to science, cancer was extremely rare in those days so they probabbly didnt have any need for that knowledge (or maybe it was rare because they did have a cure- who knows).

oh i see, here you use science to back up your claim :facepalm:
i'm confused. is science the search for truth only when convenient...?
besides that is not entirely true
shall we do a fact check?

It is ok to be wrong but what isnt ok is for athiests to insist that science is the validity test to anything and everything.

why did you use "science" to validate cancer was rare?

One thing science should show us is that we mere mortals are fallable and that to say that anything that defies science must be wrong, because science cant fathom it, is illogical, pathetic and ignorant.

if anything science shows us, is how little we know.

So let me get this straight....You dont like religion because some people use it to make them superior?

not some, most.

So what do you think science does?

because it's...
constantly changing set of guesses
in the search for unbiased truth

There are so many people on here that think they know the answers to the universe because they have read a paper written by a limited, like minded athiest. This to me seems a little arrogant but not as arrogant as those that have used science to establish their superiority as human beings.

we're only human...born to make mistakes... ALL OF US

Take for example the scientific justification for racial dominace due to scientists publishing papers stating that white brains are more developed than black brains (one of which I understand spent 2 years in prison for his unsubstantiated and racially motivated claims once it was discovered that he simply lied). Or how about the days of eugenics when people such as Hitler demonstarted how the jews, blacks etc were inferior and therefore natural selection required their extermination.

this was a very poor argument...you know why? because science refuted these things not religion :facepalm:

There are many more examples but guess what...Im not so short sighted that I would blame the institution of science for this but rather concede that there are people out there that will use whatever vehicle they can for their own selfish gains. I call these dangerous people but I dont blame science as you should not blame religion for the freaks that abuse it.

you tell me why? freaks like mother theresa and the pope are definitely to blame for perpetuating the misery in india because of their faith.
it was faith that told them contraceptives were a form of abortion...

Religion does not attempt to substitute science anywhere near the way in which science attempts to substitue religion.

why would you be afraid of that? or is religion so fragile that it can be refuted and proven wrong?

The problem is the theoretical science, which cannot be proven, yet still seeks to pretend that it has all the answers and sometimes appears to be deliberately trying to disprove the bible.

*read what you wrote here, and tell me how this is the most ridiculous claim thus far... :rolleyes:

To me that is not real science. Please, I dont want to get into another debate about evolution verses religion now as I have come to accept that athiests think differently from me and this is near impossible to resolve. What I would like to suggest though is that you simply allow room for the fact that not everything can be scientifically tested at this point in our history which means that there are some scientific unkowns.

as i said before science only shows how little we know and people who believe in science instead of religious hokus pokus don't walk around thinking they KNOW the answers as the "morally superior" do.

This is where the religious books merely inform us of what the ancients all over the world knew... The Truth Is Out There lol.

tell that to giordano bruno, galileo, rene descartes, edmond halley, edwin hubble...
*hint: here is the answer to your most ridiculous claim thus far....
without theoretical science ahh, we'd still think the earth was the center of the universe :facepalm:
 

strikeviperMKII

Well-Known Member
i have some news for you, this change happens when you take responsibility for yourself... it happens all the time

Yes, it does. I did not say otherwise.

you know this double talk is absolutely ridiculous.
am i speaking chinese to you or what?
you could have saved a lot of time simply saying
"faith changed my perspective"
instead you try to come across as though your morally superior by trying to be deceitfully humble... actually it's not surprising at all, it's pretty typical
dishonest holier then thou rhetoric.
are you that desperate to make a silly point?
sad, really sad.

If I came across that way, it was not my intention. in my experience, when we see someone who we think has a 'holier than thou' attitude, there is not something wrong with the person speaking, but ourselves. Most likely, there is something we do not wish to admit to ourselves about ourselves.
But, this may not be the case here. I am just speaking from experience. Take it or leave it.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
If I came across that way, it was not my intention.

you were purposefully trying to be vague.

in my experience, when we see someone who we think has a 'holier than thou' attitude, there is not something wrong with the person speaking, but ourselves. Most likely, there is something we do not wish to admit to ourselves about ourselves.

one of these things doesn't go with the other unless you have multiple personalities

But, this may not be the case here. I am just speaking from experience. Take it or leave it.

who's experience yours or ours :facepalm:
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
one of these things doesn't go with the other unless you have multiple personalities
You've just complained of his choice of "In my experience, when we.." and used it as an excuse to insult him. I'm disappointed.

Where I live, there is nothing wrong with his choice of words. I completely disagree with him on his point, but I don't see a point in being rude and picking at his choice of words.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
You've just complained of his choice of "In my experience, when we.." and used it as an excuse to insult him. I'm disappointed.

Where I live, there is nothing wrong with his choice of words. I completely disagree with him on his point, but I don't see a point in being rude and picking at his choice of words.

sorry if i disappointed, he's been yanking my chain for awhile

what i tried to do was to use his example of how his experience cannot apply to other people. he needs to speak for himself.

besides, i don't live where you live
 

strikeviperMKII

Well-Known Member
you were purposefully trying to be vague.

Purposefully? Maybe I was addressing a very broad idea.

one of these things doesn't go with the other unless you have multiple personalities

The 'we' is general. I suppose a better word would be the general 'you'. I used 'we' because I have found that this is the case for almost all the people I've met.


who's experience yours or ours :facepalm:

Mine. That experience includes my experience of others.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
here is where you need to step back...

that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life

Belief is the condition to have 'eternal life'. Not to be loved, but to have eternal life. Being loved is not the same as having eternal life.

if you love someone would you set up a condition where they would be tormented as retaliation for lack of faith in you?

Without death, we cannot know life. That being said, one can live their life, but die without having lived at all.

how is that exactly? if you are meaning one cannot measure happiness unless one experiences sadness, but once you're dead well ah, you're dead.
Death is not the end.

it's the end of life as we know it.
and to assume one knows the unknowable is pure speculation. period.

When you come from death into life, it is no longer speculation.

please, stop being dishonest.

you were purposefully trying to be vague.

Purposefully? Maybe I was addressing a very broad idea.

no it seemed obvious, we were talking about physically dying when you stop breathing and your heart stops pumping...:facepalm:
 
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