Females In France Face Full Face Exposure

[beenie]

I didn't say they should be sent back; I said they should go back. If you're hostile toward a society and don't want to be a member of it, don't.

uh, sounds like the FRENCH are being hostile, Smoke...not the women in burqas.

Yes, I'm completely serious, but I wasn't commenting on the law, which is stupid, but on ssainhu's comment that such women don't want to be integrated into French society. If your values are at odds with those of a foreign society, why would you move there and flaunt your hostility to that society?

how are they flaunting their hostility? by wearing a burqa? please.

what hostility? They go there to have a better life. They still want to keep their culture. It isn't like they are forcing people to convert to Islam.

agreed. just leave them alone already.

I am totally with Smoke on this.

It is not fair to enter into another society
and expect them to change FOR YOU.
If they do not stand for, represent,
embody WHAT YOU DO...
why ON EARTH would you want to live there.

Expecting them to change their ways for YOU
is ridiculous.

And where does it stop?
(from another, but similar thread on the forum)



Aparantely we here at RF are not supposed to "display" pictures of nude art,
in public debate and discussion areas where any Muslims are present.
Not even nude art of the classic Greek and Roman variety,
because...
THAT kind of art has NO place in an Islamic society, from any point of view.

Yet, France is not an Islamic society, the US is not an Islamic society,
and neither is RF an Islamic society.
Ancient (and Modern) Nude Art clearly DOES have a place IN OUR society.

Why in gods name, don't you stay in your Islamic sociteties then?
I don't get it. really.

There is NO amount of money you could pay me
to get me to go live in an Islamic society.
And I wouldn't choose to go there either,
trying to change it,
seeking to force or fluant my disgust for and counter cultural embodiment of their society.

Why on EARTH would I want to live there?
Why on EARTH would strict Muslims even WANT to live in France?

Say what you will about me,
but France should not be expected to forfiet or compromise it's culture.
It just shouldn't.
It's an unfair expectation.

Live where the culture MATCHES you.

how are they asking society to CHANGE for them? they're only asking to be allowed to wear what they want.

why should they integrate in terms of what they wear? they have been living in burqas for years in France and all over the world...if they're picketing the streets asking for special privileges, then you'd both have a point? why should a Muslim woman have to DRESS like French in order to live there?

assimilation doesn't mean having to wear a particular wardrobe...

 

[blackout]

If I went and moved to an Islamic society,
should I expect them to allow me to wear the fashions I choose to wear?

Should I not be allowed to show cleavage and leg,
and shoulders and arms... and... lol... face?

If I were thinner,
I'd show mid-drift too.
And have a cute belly button pierce.
And probably wear short shorts.
oh well.

And if you say no,
I should not be allowed to dress as I choose
in an Islamic country,
I say to you...

how am I asking (Islamic) society to CHANGE for me? I'm only asking to be allowed to wear what I want.

 

[beenie]

If I went and moved to an Islamic society,
should I expect them to allow me to wear the fashions I choose to wear?

Should I not be allowed to show cleavage and leg,
and shoulders and arms... and... lol... face?

If I were thinner,
I'd show mid-drift too.
And have a cute belly button pierce.
And probably wear short shorts.
oh well.

And if you say no,
I should not be allowed to dress as I choose
in an Islamic country,
I say to you...

France is NOT a religious-based government. can't compare the two, sorry.

 

[blackout]

France is NOT a religious-based government. can't compare the two, sorry.

Oh please.
You want your cake and eat it too honey.

France is CLEARLY a country with it's own culture.
That culture is comfortable with nudity and sexuality.
They are accepting of differing sexualities.
They are a culture of high fashion
which exaults the human form as an art form.
It is not concerned with "covering" the female form
but adorning and sculpting (for) it.
So while you are sticking a mass marketed black bag over your head,
french designers are creating one of a kind coiture
... barely covering breast nipples.

To you this IS the culture of Satan.

So YES it IS a "religious" culture.
If the govt. votes as Satan's ambassadors
then YES the govt. IS a religious one.


You know, this REALLY is where non"religious" people are stupid.
They should declare their Secularism a religion
if they want equal rights in this world.

All of you Athiest Spawn of Satan
ought to just embrace your Satanic nature.
Satanism should rule this world.
If all of us ungodly hoards would just band together
we would be the religious majority.

Religion does not equal monotheism or theism or gods.
It is a revered way of life.

 

[xkatz]

After Rene Descartes, the French have contributed nothing important to "Western" society anyways, including this ban on Burqas/Niqabs.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

why should they integrate in terms of what they wear? they have been living in burqas for years in France and all over the world...if they're picketing the streets asking for special privileges, then you'd both have a point? why should a Muslim woman have to DRESS like French in order to live there?

assimilation doesn't mean having to wear a particular wardrobe...

Strangely before about the year 2000 Muslim did wear European clothing in virtually all of Europe. It is only with the recent rise of fundamentalism that the various face coverings have been used here. before that It would have been very unusual to see one at all.

 

[xkatz]

Strangely before about the year 2000 Muslim did wear European clothing in virtually all of Europe. It is only with the recent rise of fundamentalism that the various face coverings have been used here. before that It would have been very unusual to see one at all.

They were really trying to hide from you I have a feeling.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

France is NOT a religious-based government. can't compare the two, sorry.

Very true... the French are civilised.

 

[beenie]

gosh you really are hostile. I'm not denying France's culture "honey". you are comparing religion and culture, and they're not comparable.

for the record, I despise the burqa; it's something I could never do. but I'm not going to dictate to others that they can't.

and I resent the comment that I think france's culture is satanic. you're being about as open-minded as you accuse Muslims of being. what's you beef with me? stay on point and please don't presume things about me you clearly don't know.

Oh please.
You want your cake and eat it too honey.

France is CLEARLY a country with it's own culture.
That culture is comfortable with nudity and sexuality.
They are accepting of differing sexualities.
They are a culture of high fashion
which exaults the human form as an art form.
It is not concerned with "covering" the female form
but adorning and sculpting (for) it.
So while you are sticking a mass marketed black bag over your head,
french designers are creating one of a kind coiture
... barely covering breast nipples.

To you this IS the culture of Satan.

So YES it IS a "religious" culture.
If the govt. votes as Satan's ambassadors
then YES the govt. IS a religious one.


You know, this REALLY is where non"religious" people are stupid.
They should declare their Secularism a religion
if they want equal rights in this world.

All of you Athiest Spawn of Satan
ought to just embrace your Satanic nature.
Satanism should rule this world.
If all of us ungodly hoards would just band together
we would be the religious majority.

Religion does not equal monotheism or theism or gods.
It is a revered way of life.

 

[Skwim]

As a matter of tolerance and respect for another culture, it's an appalling decision.

Obviously you regard the respect for religious custom to be more important than the security of society. I don't.

And as a matter of allowing people to wear whatever they want without repression, the decision isn't only appalling, it's fascist; it's vile, it's egocentric, vindictive, malicious and just plain disgusting.

You forgot vain, selfish, self-absorbed, spiteful, resentful, malignant, venomous, rancorous, revengeful, hateful, evil-minded, catty, baleful, shrewish, wicked, evil, mean, bad, corrupt, humiliating, perverted, degrading, shocking, authoritarian, autocratic, dictatorial, despotic, tyrannous, horrifying, shocking, alarming, terrifying, dreadful, intimidating, sickening, foul, revolting, gross, nasty, vulger, and vile.

 

[DarkSun]

You forgot vain, selfish, self-absorbed, spiteful, resentful, malignant, venomous, rancorous, revengeful, hateful, evil-minded, catty, baleful, shrewish, wicked, evil, mean, bad, corrupt, humiliating, perverted, degrading, shocking, authoritarian, autocratic, dictatorial, despotic, tyrannous, horrifying, shocking, alarming, terrifying, dreadful, intimidating, sickening, foul, revolting, gross, nasty, vulger, and vile.

Thanks.

 

[DarkSun]

If I went and moved to an Islamic society,
should I expect them to allow me to wear the fashions I choose to wear?

Should I not be allowed to show cleavage and leg,
and shoulders and arms... and... lol... face?

If I were thinner,
I'd show mid-drift too.
And have a cute belly button pierce.
And probably wear short shorts.
oh well.

And if you say no,
I should not be allowed to dress as I choose
in an Islamic country,
I say to you...

France is not an Islamic country. And ideally people shouldn't be made to wear something they're uncomfortable in, regardless of what country we're talking about. I'm afraid your point is moot.

Oh please.
You want your cake and eat it too honey.

Lose the attitude, he did nothing to warrant it.

France is CLEARLY a country with it's own culture.
That culture is comfortable with nudity and sexuality.
They are accepting of differing sexualities.
They are a culture of high fashion
which exaults the human form as an art form.
It is not concerned with "covering" the female form
but adorning and sculpting (for) it.
So while you are sticking a mass marketed black bag over your head,
french designers are creating one of a kind coiture
... barely covering breast nipples.

To you this IS the culture of Satan.

So YES it IS a "religious" culture.
If the govt. votes as Satan's ambassadors
then YES the govt. IS a religious one.

You know, this REALLY is where non"religious" people are stupid.
They should declare their Secularism a religion
if they want equal rights in this world.

All of you Athiest Spawn of Satan
ought to just embrace your Satanic nature.
Satanism should rule this world.
If all of us ungodly hoards would just band together
we would be the religious majority.

Religion does not equal monotheism or theism or gods.
It is a revered way of life.

Oh okay. So how is any of this relevant? The law is about making a minority group conform to the majority's culture. It is about us changing them. Not the other way around. We can't expect Islamic minorities to respect and tolerate our culture, while making them forgo theirs. That's a double standard. Besides, I think you'll find that there are a lot of Muslims who don't fit under the blanket stereotype that you're trying to fit them all under, and that many of them are very tolerant of Western society. This law will affect these people too.

Obviously you regard the respect for religious custom to be more important than the security of society. I don't.

It's possible to kill someone with a sewing needle. Maybe we should ban clothes altogether to limit the extent to which people can hide weapons...? :sarcastic

 

[kai]

I agree this Religious/cultural practice of wearing full face covering in Europe is on the increase. I dont agree with the ban but France is France and the French have always had a stricter idea of what secularism is than us, so its not outrageous as far as France goes.

I dont know about you but I find it intriguing when I see a man dressed in, a T-shirt and jeans walking along with a fully veiled woman. Liberating is not the word that springs to mind

 

[Skwim]

It's possible to kill someone with a sewing needle. Maybe we should ban clothes altogether to limit the extent to which people can hide weapons...? :sarcastic

Obviously you regard the respect for religious custom to be more important than the security of society. I don't.

 

[kai]

Obviously you regard the respect for religious custom to be more important than the security of society. I don't.

There is still the question of whether the Burka is actually a religious requirement in Islam?

Thats kind of irrelevant to me as i am against the ban just because i hate state interference in what people wear just as much as i would hate old men with beards dictating what people wear on religious grounds.

Personally i don't get why the creator of the universe and all its glory worries abut what women wear in this little corner of it.

If its cultural then you have to make some effort adapt to your new culture of your adoptive country.

 

[Skwim]

There is still the question of whether the Burka is actually a religious requirement in Islam?

Thats kind of irrelevant to me as i am against the ban just because i hate state interference in what people wear just as much as i would hate old men with beards dictating what people wear on religious grounds.

But I assume you have no trouble with the state interfering with what kinds of weapons citizens can own, such as bazookas and fully automatic weapons. Or the state interfering with how inebriated people might want to get in public, like falling down, puking drunk.

 

[Bismillah]

For those arguing this measure is for "security purposes". Tell me how many Muslims there are in the world. Tell me how many Muslims there are in France. Now tell me how many Muslims wear the Burqa in France. Now tell me that this ban doesn't affect Muslims in any of these three categories. Clearly antagonizing a majority while only specificilly targeting a minority within the Muslim subculture is one of the most idiotic implementations French policy makers could take to prep for "security".

An overarching ban like this is NOT a security measure. If there were some attempt at accommodation instead of a general ban on the burqa, then you could argue that this was construed for the saftey of French citiznes. This is quite clearly motivated by a xenophobic hatred and fear of Muslim society and the concept of "Islamasization" of France.

 

[DarkSun]

Obviously you regard the respect for religious custom to be more important than the security of society. I don't.

Did you even read what I said?

You said this:

Obviously you regard the respect for religious custom to be more important than the security of society. I don't.

Which is both a straw man and an ad hominem. I am not disregarding security, I am valuing the freedom to choose to wear what you're comfortable with. There is a difference. Besides, people are more than able to conceal weapons in Western clothing. Maybe not a machine gun or a pack of C4 (although that's been done), but a pencil, a pen, a sewing needle, a glass bottle, a rolled up newspaper, anything. If someone knew how to use these in the right way, they could also pose a threat - maybe even more so than someone hiding a sword in their burqa who doesn't know how to use it. And as I said, all of these objects can easily be hidden in every day clothing.

It's fair enough to to say: "hey, let's ban the burqa, people could be hiding weapons in it." But taking that to the next level, we could apply the same reasoning and say: "hey, let's ban clothing, people could be hiding weapons in it." Honestly, your logic fits with that statement just as much as with the former.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

male Terrorists have been caught in the UK wearing female clothing and face scarves.
It is a known issue.
The wearing of face scarves by women, is an Arab social custom not a religious one.
Modern society in the west, makes numerous laws as to what can and can not be worn, and in what circumstances, as do societies in the middle east. The lists are not identical.

However the countries involved have every right to impose these laws.

 

[DarkSun]

Well... I've said my two cents. I'll let this go now.