Females In France Face Full Face Exposure

[beenie]

what is france's cultural dress?

 

[Willamena]

It does when someone denigrates one nations subjugation of freedom but lets another nations subjugation of freedom pass without comment.

It`s hypocrisy.

Then it doesn't matter. Okay.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I would normally be in full support of religious rights, but in this case I firmly believe human rights trump that of religious ones.

 

[MissAlice]

what is france's cultural dress?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

As a matter of fact, I think this is a stupid law, but I can't bring myself to pretend I care about it. The right to wear a burqa seems about as important to me as the right to cut your ears off.

It's not a matter of the right to wear a burqa; it's a matter of the right to wear what you want. It's also a matter of the right equal treatment under the law regardless of gender or religion.

I care about these sorts of rights a great deal.

I am totally with Smoke on this.

It is not fair to enter into another society
and expect them to change FOR YOU.
If they do not stand for, represent,
embody WHAT YOU DO...
why ON EARTH would you want to live there.

Expecting them to change their ways for YOU
is ridiculous.

And where does it stop?

But here's the thing: AFAICT, nobody was asking for the society to change. Before this law passed, it was perfectly legal for a woman to wear a burqa or a niqab. AFAIK, there had never been any French law against these garments.

Here, we have a case of society changing to exclude the newcomer, not the newcomers demanding society change to exclude them.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So, in order to avoid men subjugating women, the government subjugates personal freedom. Nice.

I agree with your point.

I also think it's hypocritical that in the name of societal integration, the French government has put in place a huge barrier to integration.

If a woman in a burqa or a niqab can function in society, then this makes it easier to be part of that society. If she really is being oppressed by her husband, then this might let her attend college in order to get a job so she's no longer materially dependent on him. If she's not being oppressed and simply chooses to wear a burqa as a matter of personal choice, then her being allowed to participate in society will make it easier for her daughters to choose not to wear one if that's what they want.

I think that if this law does anything, it will be to turn some of the affected women into captives in their own homes, while ghettoizing the rest, cutting off them and their families from the secular society that the French government claims it wants them to integrate into.

 

[Smoke]

It's not a matter of the right to wear a burqa; it's a matter of the right to wear what you want. It's also a matter of the right equal treatment under the law regardless of gender or religion.

I care about these sorts of rights a great deal.

I don't know of any country in which there's a recognized right to wear what you want. Maybe there should be, but in most countries there isn't.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't know of any country in which there's a recognized right to wear what you want. Maybe there should be, but in most countries there isn't.

... based on legitimate societal needs, hopefully. It's not good enough to justify a law with "well, everyone else is doing it". Especially when the vast majority of countries don't have burqa bans.

 

[linwood]

Then it doesn't matter. Okay.

It`s not that it doesn`t matter.
It`s dependent on how much subjugation of freedom you are willing to accept.

I am willing to accept the fact that my wife can`t go topless at the bank therefore I`m willing to accept that she also can`t wear a Hijab at the bank.

Now if the powers that be began telling me she can "ONLY wear purple halter tops and neutral slacks" to the bank I`d object.

That takes away far to much freedom for my tastes.

 

[Willamena]

Now if the powers that be began telling me she can "ONLY wear purple halter tops and neutral slacks" to the bank I`d object.

That takes away far to much freedom for my tastes.

That is essentially precisely what they are doing. They are saying, "You can't wear the hijab, and you can't go naked. Choose something else."

 

[linwood]

That is essentially precisely what they are doing. They are saying, "You can't wear the hijab, and you can't go naked. Choose something else."

But so is every other nation on the planet in one form or another.

Why no objection to the fact that my wife can`t go topless at the bank or wear a thong to the bakery?

She is forced to choose "something else".

 

[Willamena]

But so is every other nation on the planet in one form or another.

Why no objection to the fact that my wife can`t go topless at the bank or wear a thong to the bakery?

She is forced to choose "something else".

Not Canada.

But, in any case, everyone else doing it isn't good justification for France doing it.

 

[Smoke]

... based on legitimate societal needs, hopefully. It's not good enough to justify a law with "well, everyone else is doing it". Especially when the vast majority of countries don't have burqa bans.

One of the interesting aspects of this issue is the approach of Muslim countries. A very few simply take no notice it, as far as the law is concerned. Some require women to wear hijab, sometimes including veiling the face. And some put restrictions on face veils or on hijab in general.

Several Muslim countries consider the burqa an expression of extremism that is incompatible with an educated, secular society. Egyptian authorities have tried to ban the niqab in universities, though it was overturned. Bosnia is considering a ban on the burqa. Turkey, Kosovo, Tunisia, Malaysia, and Syria all forbid the burqa in some circumstances -- usually on government property and in universities. The governments of Egypt and Bangladesh discourage face veils, and the Bengali national airline forbids female employees to wear hijab.

Considering the fact that so many Muslim countries view the wearing the burqa as an extremist and undesirable form of dress, I think it's odd to castigate the French and the Belgians for coming to the same conclusion. In fact, the French and the Belgians may just be right.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Considering the fact that so many Muslim countries view the wearing the burqa as an extremist and undesirable form of dress, I think it's odd to castigate the French and the Belgians for coming to the same conclusion. In fact, the French and the Belgians may just be right.

The issue is that in a democratic country that values freedom, it's not enough for something to be "extremist" or "undesirable" for it to be banned. Our laws are supposed to be justified on the basis of actual harm... or at least risk of harm. Nobody has demonstrated that the burqa or niqab cause any more harm than banning them would cause.

IMO, this is a cut-and-dry matter of free expression. I personally hold a number of ideas that many people probably consider "extremist" or "undesirable", and I would like to maintain the ability to act on them and speak out in favour of them. If this right can be taken away in the case of the burqa, it can potentially be taken away in my case as well.

 

[Smoke]

But, in any case, everyone else doing it isn't good justification for France doing it.

But when every country in the world places restrictions on what one can wear in public, isn't it a little odd to single France out for special criticism? Especially considering the multitude of far more urgent human rights violations in the world?

 

[linwood]

Not Canada.

you don`t need a law to keep women clothed in Canada.
It`s too damn cold to go around without clothes.

But, in any case, everyone else doing it isn't good justification for France doing it.

I agree but that`s not my argument.

My argument is pointing out the hypocrisy of bashing this French legislation while idly accepting similar laws and even laws more confining of freedom of expression.
The fact that it is Muslims from Muslim nations who are protesting the loudest strikes me as hypocritical to an extreme considering the extremist subjugation of freedom for women in every Muslim nation I know of.

I happen to agree with the French legislation.
If they don`t like it they can go back to Saudi, Syria, or whatever theocratic hell hole they came from..godspeed!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But when every country in the world places restrictions on what one can wear in public, isn't it a little odd to single France out for special criticism? Especially considering the multitude of far more urgent human rights violations in the world?

When the vast majority of countries allow one to wear the burqa in public, isn't it a little odd for France to single it out for special criticism? Especially considering the multitude of far more urgent human rights violations in the world?



Edit: you say that every country in the world places restrictions on what one can wear in public; how many of those countries have one set of restrictions for Muslim women and one set of restrictions for everyone else?

 

[linwood]

Edit: you say that every country in the world places restrictions on what one can wear in public; how many of those countries have one set of restrictions for Muslim women and one set of restrictions for everyone else?

Not true.

I`d imagine it`s just as illegal for a Christian to wear the Hijab in Paris as it is a Muslim.

 

[Smoke]

Edit: you say that every country in the world places restrictions on what one can wear in public; how many of those countries have one set of restrictions for Muslim women and one set of restrictions for everyone else?

Is it the case in France that Christian women may wear face veils and Muslim women may not?

 

[Willamena]

But when every country in the world places restrictions on what one can wear in public, isn't it a little odd to single France out for special criticism? Especially considering the multitude of far more urgent human rights violations in the world?

No one has done that, as far as I know. France is the topic, though.