Ferguson: Maybe time to start asking the most pertinent questions?

[freethinker44]

yeah and I don't think it's confirmed these guys robbed a store....

So? We don't know anything about them. I'm sure if they were executed by a cop all of their demons would come out to play too. That's the point though. The cop didn't know anything about Brown when he executed him. It doesn't matter if Brown was a thug or if he stole some cigars from a store or whatever else we know about him now, because all the cop didn't know anything about him when he shot him in the face.

 

[dawny0826]

1) Does it make any sense for an officer with a record of six years of a flawless record (4 years within the very own community in which he was raised); no complaints whatsoever of abusing his authority by anyone; never having discharged his duty weapon, ever....to just, for no apparent reason at all, fire upon an 18yo (shot 6 times by the latest autopsy), for "jaywalking"? Really? Shooting an 18yo, in the back, for raising his hands, falling to his knees in surrender for arrest..for jaywalking? That's the current narrative and accountants from the "dozens" of eyewitnesses. Michael Brown (the "teenager") was shot and killed for no explicable reason at all.

Was Officer Darren Wilson just having a bad day, snapped, and decided to shoot an unarmed man in broad daylight at mid-day, just because he felt like it?

It doesn't make sense to me, but, I remain open to the possiblity that Wilson justly or unjustly took Brown's life.

I am of the opinion that until proven guilty in a court of law, he and his family have the right to freedom and safety. Considering the outcry, most of which is understandable and justified, I think that it may have been a good move to withhold his name and provide an opportunity for his family to safely exit the area.

There are always those few that wouldn't hesitate to take the law into their own hands which isn't justifiable, regardless as to what happened.

2) Reputedly, there were reported as fact, literally "dozens" of eyewitnesses to the ongoing event or shooting. "Dozens". Yet not one eyewitness had the presence of mind to video this happening on this day's knowable and nearly ubiquitous cellphones? In 2014? No one? Not one? In broad daylight, middle of the day, in the middle of a traveled street. No one? Possible, but highly unlikely in 2014.

I don't think it unreasonable that if there were dozens of eyewitnesses, they may have been more concerned about the men involved in the incident than they were about documenting it.

I also think it's possible that some eyewitness accounts may stem from heated emotion and not fact.

3) Is there any cruiser footage to publicly share that may be relevant? Perhaps so, perhaps not. But the question IS relevant if any footage actually exists. A simple "yes" or "no" would help here.

No doubt, the residents of Ferguson have a plethora of more than legitimate gripes regarding this tragedy, and the greater whole of inequality, biased treatment and arrests, general poverty and inequity, and so much more.

But to be fair to the desire for "justice" of a specific "alleged" crime of wanton murder, all citizens are (or should be aware) that all investigations of such matters take time to uncover ALL available facts and evidence first, before any arrest, prosecution, and verdict of a jury of peers takes place.

Otherwise, we may as well go back to the bad ole' days of "lynch mob" mentalities that only dictate an immediate "fair" trial, followed by a righteous hanging.

Agreed. Footage of any sort would be nice, but, then, we don't know whether or not footage does exist and is included in the ongoing investigation.

I wouldn't think it unwise to withold any evidence from the community, considering the emotion at this point. Until the investigation is closed, I don't believe that the FBI has any obligation to share information until details are clearer.

Time will tell. Time will heal.

 

[Imaginary_Friends]

So? We don't know anything about them. I'm sure if they were executed by a cop all of their demons would come out to play too. That's the point though. The cop didn't know anything about Brown when he executed him. It doesn't matter if Brown was a thug or if he stole some cigars from a store or whatever else we know about him now, because all the cop didn't know anything about him when he shot him in the face.

I addressed this in post #53.

 

[dawny0826]

If a "good cop had a bad day" and murdered somebody, he should go to jail. Just like any of the rest of us who "have a bad day" and murder somebody.

Not without enough evidence to suggest that he did indeed murder somebody. Not without a conviction.

 

[Father Heathen]

I found this conversation recorded on cell phone by an eyewitness at the scene to be interesting, and probably more reliable than most irate eyewitness accounts reported after-the-fact:

A Witness Conversation Unknowingly Captured at the Scene of the Ferguson Shooting is a Game-Changer

Basically, it's an eyewitness explaining to another person what happened, which involved Michael Brown rushing the officer, and continuing to come for the officer while being shot.

Even if this account is more representative of the scenario, I doubt it would make much difference to people protesting the shooting. Nor, do I think it excuses the handling of the protests or riots by the police department since the incident.

What is disturbing, is this propensity of the media and society to instantly create and accept narratives about these situations which are obviously highly rhetorical and hyperbolic. Michael Brown was 18, but wasn't a child, nor an innocent youth with a heart of gold who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, savagely gunned down in cold blood by a racist, white police officer.

The guy was a thug, had an attitude, and if this account is true in that he kept rushing the officer while being shot several times, then he was also probably on a substance which compromised his judgment and behavior.

Yeap... as predicted, the media (as well as some forum members) really jumped the gun with their presumptuous sensationalism and hysterics.

I like how they always try to distort the characters of those involved in these instances. Depicting the slain as sweet, good-natured children, whereas in reality they were 17-18 (which most in here would insist is adult until convenient to say otherwise) and of large stature and confrontational nature (Brown had robbed a store and assaulted it's owner just prior to the shooting). Also Hispanic guys magically become white when convenient.

Just goes to show that being objective and honest is the best route when digesting news stories as they unfold, rather than pulling out ones favorite bogeymen to parade around.

 

[dawny0826]

Yeap... as predicted, the media (as well as some forum members) really jumped the gun with their presumptuous sensationalism and hysterics.

I like how they always try to distort the characters of those involved in these instances. Depicting the slain as sweet, good-natured children, whereas in reality they were 17-18 (which most in here would insist is adult until convenient to say otherwise) and of large stature and confrontational nature (Brown had robbed a store and assaulted it's owner just prior to the shooting). Also Hispanic guys magically become white when convenient.

Just goes to show that being objective and honest is the best route when digesting news stories as they unfold, rather than pulling out our favorite bogeymen to parade around.

It's sad to hear of additional people being shot in the wake of this tragic situation.

I can't help but to question (as an American who absolutely values our right to peaceful assembly and protest), why the magnitude of protesting before the investigation has even ended.

What will this community do if evidence suggests that Brown was not murdered?

Not to undermine the other issues that need to be addressed - excessive police force - the underlying issues within this community.

As an outsider reading into the situation, it reads as if the people of Ferguson are convinced that Wilson is guilty and might not take well to the results of an investigation if they don't yield the brand of justice that they're seeking.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes. And potentially inbred.

It occurs to me that only rural white folk are accused being inbred.
That's racist!
Know why?
Not cuz it disparages us pale bumpkins....no, it's racist against black folk.
White folk being inbred presumes that black folk are profligate.
I must be very multi-cultural to be the first to call you on your faux pas!

 

[Father Heathen]

It's sad to hear of additional people being shot in the wake of this tragic situation.

Death is always sad, especially in cases where it was unnecessary and avoidable.

I can't help but to question (as an American who absolutely values our right to peaceful assembly and protest), why the magnitude of protesting before the investigation has even ended.

I value the freedom/right to assembly, speech, and expression as well. What's a shame is that some people feel that vandalism, theft, and assault upon random innocents is somehow justifiable. Another shame is that people like to make presumptions and jump to conclusions before all of the facts have come to light.

What will this community do if evidence suggests that Brown was not murdered?

Probably presume bias and resume rioting.

Not to undermine the other issues that need to be addressed - excessive police force - the underlying issues within this community.

Police corruption, misconduct, and incompetence is a real and serious problem that should be addressed, and if this is the case in this situation, I hope those responsible get their comeuppance.

As an outsider reading into the situation, it reads as if the people of Ferguson are convinced that Wilson is guilty and might not take well to the results of an investigation if they don't yield the brand of justice that they're seeking.

Yep, guilty until proven innocent. It's as if they actually desire and require a martyr figure. The media feeds the frenzy, which doesn't help.

 

[Alceste]

Death is always sad, especially in cases where it was unnecessary and avoidable.



I value the freedom/right to assembly, speech, and expression as well. What's a shame is that some people feel that vandalism, theft, and assault upon random innocents is somehow justifiable. Another shame is that people like to make presumptions and jump to conclusions before all of the facts have come to light.

Probably presume bias and resume rioting.

Police corruption, misconduct, and incompetence is a real and serious problem that should be addressed, and if this is the case in this situation, I hope those responsible get their comeuppance.



Yep, guilty until proven innocent. It's as if they actually desire and require a martyr figure. The media feeds the frenzy, which doesn't help.

Referring to peaceful protests as "riots" is not very helpful.

 

[dawny0826]

Referring to peaceful protests as "riots" is not very helpful.

Only he wasn't referring to peaceful protests as riots. He was referring to riots and riots.

And that's all you have to say in response to his post?

 

[Father Heathen]

Referring to peaceful protests as "riots" is not very helpful.

I'm referring to the riots as "riots", not the peaceful protests. They're two separate occurrences. Are you pretending that the vandalism, looting, and molotov tossing didn't happen? That is what I was referring to, obviously.

Resorting to dishonesty and distortion is not very helpful. Perhaps you should consider bowing out.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Well of course the idiots who wanted to take advantage of the situation, those who hate everything, even cops, and who are also racist.

I know it's not your forte, but can you provide evidence of that?

 

[Alceste]

Only he wasn't referring to peaceful protests as riots. He was referring to riots and riots.

And that's all you have to say in response to his post?

Are you both aware that peaceful protests are ongoing, on a vastly larger scale than any illegal or opportunistic behaviour?

 

[Father Heathen]

Are you both aware that peaceful protests are ongoing, on a vastly larger scale than any illegal or opportunistic behaviour?

Of course we do, but that clearly wasn't what we were referring to, so what's your point?

Either you possess ****-poor reading comprehension, or you deliberately try to twist and distort what other people say; so, which is it?

 

[Alceste]

I'm referring to the riots as "riots", not the peaceful protests. They're two separate occurrences. Are you pretending that the vandalism, looting, and molotov tossing didn't happen? That is what I was referring to, obviously.

Resorting to dishonesty and distortion is not very helpful. Perhaps you should consider bowing out.

But why did you choose to gloss over the fact that the majority of the community is protesting peacefully and even protecting shops from opportunistic looting?

It seemed very dishonest to me, particularly in the context of you pontificating on the general subject of how the people of Ferguson in general would react to news of further injustice.

 

[psychoslice]

I know it's not your forte, but can you provide evidence of that?

CNN news, but I know you wont want to believe that, we shouldn't be racist, and I mean on both parties, racism isn't a one way street..

 

[Alceste]

Of course we do, but that clearly wasn't what we were referring to, so what's your point?

Either you possess ****-poor reading comprehension, or you deliberately try to twist and distort what other people say; so, which is it?

Obviously it's not as clear as you think, since here we are hashing out what you meant. Your mischaracterization of the people of Ferguson in general spoiled an otherwise relatively clear-headed post.

Yeah, looting is poor behaviour. I'm confident the anti-police-brutality protesters in Ferguson completely agree. Otherwise why would they bother protecting shops?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

CNN news, but I know you wont want to believe that, we shouldn't be racist, and I mean on both parties, racism isn't a one way street..

I think you're assuming a bit too much about me and should stop that.

 

[dawny0826]

Are you both aware that peaceful protests are ongoing, on a vastly larger scale than any illegal or opportunistic behaviour?

We are, actually.

The National Guard isn't called in for a few opportunistic crimes.

Early Monday, Missouri Gov. Jay Nixon ordered the state National Guard into Ferguson to restore peace after what he called “deliberate, coordinated and intensifying violence attacks on lives and property.”

He issued the order after a chaotic night in which authorities said violent protesters fired on officers, threw firebombs at them and tried to, in the governor’s words, “overrun” the police command post. Some protesters disputed that characterization, accusing police of aggravating the situation with heavy-handed tactics.

Source: National Guard called to Ferguson, Missouri | WTVR.com

The National Guard isn't called in unless there's a concern for life and property. Edit: And local authorities may be overwhelmed.

I'm not stating that the police have been saints by any means. At this juncture, I doubt that the police have desire to purposefully aggravate a situation when all eyes are on them.

 

[psychoslice]

I think you're assuming a bit too much about me and should stop that.

Believe what you want, maybe your assuming a bit too much about me as you always do.