Ferguson: Moving on..why none of this will mater...

[Alceste]

Tis especially ironic to be called a racist by someone who has made racist, sexist, &
ageist remarks in the forums. Of course, it's acceptable when makes them about
those seen as "privileged". It points out the problem that all this name calling is
counter-productive histrionics bespeaking immaturity in dealing with anger.
The unfortunate result is that conversations become difficult. Let's enjoy differences
of opinion, & politely address what bothers us.

I think it's quite problematic to call the identification of racist arguments and opinions "name-calling".

 

[AgnosticBoy]

I think it's quite problematic to call the identification of racist arguments and opinions "name-calling".

It is name calling (a serious one) and prohibited by the forum rules. It definitely shouldn't be allowed on a DEBATE forum, esp. when you refuse to offer evidence to back it up.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Doesnt matter? Are you a racist?

I'm saying that you having a Mexican girlfriend and non-white friends doesn't mean you're not a racist.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Let me give you some clarity. Chronic accusations of racism and touting concepts of white privilege are an absolute necessity to provide one sole excuse. That excuse is the inability of blacks to thrive in complex white civilizations. So it does not matter if you have a Latina girlfriend or if you have 90% of your income paying a special reparations tax. You (in their minds) have to be a racist because the only other possible explanation of blacks not thriving in white civilizations is a biological one. That is something that their minds will never allow to process. They will stomp their feet and cover their eyes and ears before they allow you give any facts or insights that may subtlety imply the latter explanation, even when your not doing so (pertaining to Brown).

That’s why when incidents like this happen, racism has to be seen everywhere. Poor Brown wasn’t robbing the store, he was merely shoplifting. They didn’t see a 6’4”, 300 lb brute, in their mind they saw 12 year old child like Trayvon who was just borrowing from the rich to feed the poor. Poor Brown just wanted a few cigars to puff on while he volunteered in his community prior to starting at the university. Actually he didn’t rob that store, the store clerk had fallen and the camera had just caught him in a bad light as he was helping the clerk to his feet.

Wilson had to be racist. He just has to be! His car was racist. His gun was racist. The whole police force was racist. It’s all part of a grand conspiracy!





Sometimes the truth isn’t always what we want it to be. Sometimes the truth is ugly and no amount of wishful thinking is going to change reality just because we don’t like it.

This forum is for the pursuit of intellectual truths. No one should be silenced just because the truth is something you don’t like. I tolerate individuals who beliefs are diametrically opposite of mine and ones that I find offensive (white privilege).




Sometimes derailed threads are the most intellectually stimulating.

This is completely disgusting!

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

As a colored, dark-skinned individual, I can't say that I ever grow tired of reading White people calling other White people racist.

Cynthia and I are not white. Mystic and Alceste are the only white people calling out the racism of the other whites here.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think it's quite problematic to call the identification of racist arguments and opinions "name-calling".

It's all in how ad hominem the call appears.
We should speak to the post rather than the poster.
The mods give some latitude, but this should not be abused.

 

[Alceste]

It's all in how ad hominem the call appears.
We should speak to the post rather than the poster.
The mods give some latitude, but this should not be abused.

Do you disagree that "black people can't function in a complex white society for biological reasons" is a racist statement? If not, then what word would you yourself use to accurately describe this particular sentiment?

 

[Alceste]

And of course no one is going to call him out on it. I think this forum should start calling itself "White Nationalist Forums", because that is the tone it is taking.

I called him out on it. Countdown to thread lock and sanctions all around.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

The argument that the systemic racial bias that persists in the US is a fiction to cover up the "fact" that "black people can't function in a white society" for "biological" reasons is racist. Obviously so. Unambiguously so. There's absolutely no wiggle room in that argument for it to be identified as anything other than full blown racism - the exact type of thing you'd hear around the water cooler at a KKK meeting, or in a thread on the leading edge of bad weather forum.

Imaginary Friends said, "that excuse is the inability of blacks to thrive in complex white civilizations". If you read the words and sentence before that you would notice he was saying that it is an excuse that chronic race card users use.
If he was saying that Blacks are incapable of functioning as good as Whites as a fact as opposed to an excuse, then I would disagree with that.

You can feel free to report me for pointing this out, but you might as well report me for calling a person who believes Jesus is the son of God a Christian.

Calling someone a Christian is not offensive but calling me a name that has negative connotations,esp. after I told you that I'm not a racist is clearly uncalled for.
When in doubt address my post rather than the poster. I'm sure you agree we have to have some standard here otherwise we'd all be allowed to call each other every dirty word in the book.

Granted, that specific example is not your argument, but you called it, and I quote, a "very good insight".

I have a different interpretation than you so I see it differently.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

Well, I've reported him. I've reported one of his racist rants before and nothing happened to it, though.

Really? Read below...

Your Mexican girlfriend doesn't matter, either.

Is this a racist statement?

 

[Alceste]

Imaginary Friends said, "that excuse is the inability of blacks to thrive in complex white civilizations". If you read the words and sentence before that you would notice he was saying that it is an excuse that chronic race card users use.
If he was saying that Blacks are incapable of functioning as good as Whites as a fact as opposed to an excuse, then I would disagree with that.



Calling someone a Christian is not offensive but calling me a name that has negative connotations,esp. after I told you that I'm not a racist is clearly uncalled for.
When in doubt address my post rather than the poster. I'm sure you agree we have to have some standard here otherwise we'd all be allowed to call each other every dirty word in the book.



I have a different interpretation than you so I see it differently.

I award you zero points for reading comprehension. He calls the concept of systemic racism and white privilege an "excuse" for black people's failure to thrive in white society, then follows up with "the only other possible explanation of blacks not thriving in white civilizations is a biological one."

Still think that's a "very good insight"? If so, you are indeed a racist. IOW, a person who believes that people of different ethnicities are BIOLOGICALLY different in such a way that ethnicity alone can cause failure to thrive for certain races.

The only reason the accurate description of this attitude, "racism", is considered pejorative is because it's gone out of fashion. That exact same argument was the "rational" backbone of those who supported slavery, Jim Crow, non-miscegenation and the intentional, organized genocide of indigenous people and culture. At one point, that was nearly everyone. These days, it's considered a serious character flaw.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Really? Read below...



Is this a racist statement?

I responded to your question before. Stop repeating yourself.

I'm saying that you having a Mexican girlfriend and non-white friends doesn't mean you're not a racist.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

I award you zero points for reading comprehension. He calls the concept of systemic racism and white privilege an "excuse" for black people's failure to thrive in white society, then follows up with "the only other possible explanation of blacks not thriving in white civilizations is a biological one."

Still think that's a "very good insight"? If so, you are indeed a racist. IOW, a person who believes that people of different ethnicities are BIOLOGICALLY different in such a way that ethnicity alone can cause failure to thrive for certain races.

The only reason the accurate description of this attitude, "racism", is considered pejorative is because it's gone out of fashion. That exact same argument was the "rational" backbone of those who supported slavery, Jim Crow, non-miscegenation and the intentional, organized genocide of indigenous people and culture. At one point, that was nearly everyone. These days, it's considered a serious character flaw.

On a Debate forum, its not your job to call people racist or to make any other of YOUR own personal judgments about someone. If you want to attack something show how my views are wrong rather than talking about how i am as a person.

I've seen at least one potential racist comment about Mexicans, do you think I'm gonna call that person racist? No. I at least had the courtesy of trying to ask him or her about it rather than name calling.

 

[Alceste]

On a Debate forum, its not your job to call people racist or to make any other of YOUR own personal judgments about someone. If you want to attack something show how my views are wrong rather than talking about how i am as a person.

I've seen at least one potential racist comment about Mexicans, do you think I'm gonna call that person racist? No. I at least had the courtesy of trying to ask him or her about it rather than name calling.

I notice you have failed to address this statement, which you have previously called a "very good insight":

"the only other possible explanation [besides systemic racial bias] of blacks not thriving in white civilizations is a biological one."

You previously said that you would disagree with this opinion if it turned out you read it wrong the first time around. So what's the verdict?

This information is necessary to establish whether or not you are a racist. If it turns out you aren't, I promise not to call you one.

 

[dawny0826]

And of course no one is going to call him out on it. I think this forum should start calling itself "White Nationalist Forums", because that is the tone it is taking.

I don't have a problem calling out the brashness of that post. Though, I will tell you that I don't hold the opinion that white privilege manifests the same way in every American community.

I live in a community that is almost half black and half white. This fluctuates as I also reside in an area with a high percentage of transient military.

In honesty, the most evident type of privilege here in my community is military & civil servant privilege.

I grew up in a community where any given person in power could be white, black or otherwise. And socio-ecnomics and drugs drive the majority of our crime, committed by whites, blacks and otherwise.

I grew up with people of color who were so much wealthier than my family. I tell you honestly, that opportunity has been available on a fairly level playing field at least where I live.

The majority of my bosses have been black women. My own neighborhood is predominately black but, still, a diverse mix.

My point - the experiences and perceptions of some may not match others. Just because I haven't agreed with everything that you've said, I would NEVER discount racism and the issues that are important to people of color.

It does hurt when you tell people in honesty that you've been on the receiving end of racist bullying and your own experiences are discounted because of the color of your skin.

Those experiences helped shape the person that I am as I don't tolerate racism as I know how painful it is. I'm reluctant to use such a label without care and great consideration.

Considering my personal exeriences, when I look at people who reside in the East End of my city, predominately black and very low income, I do question why this group of people continue to struggle in a way that others aren't. What's different about this part of my city?

I don't consider it racist to ask such a question. If such a community feels underserved and underprivileged, is it not the responsibility of others to listen and do what we can to route philanthropic, educational and tax dollars to improve the lives of people within this part of our community?

Just because I haven't seen racism where you and others have, doesn't mean that I'm racist or that I don't care about what you and others have to say.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

I don't have a problem calling out the brashness of that post.

Of course you don't. And I know exactly why.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

I notice you have failed to address this statement, which you have previously called a "very good insight":

"the only other possible explanation [besides systemic racial bias] of blacks not thriving in white civilizations is a biological one."

You previously said that you would disagree with this opinion if it turned out you read it wrong the first time around. So what's the verdict?

This information is necessary to establish whether or not you are a racist. If it turns out you aren't, I promise not to call you one.

I'm actually on a cellphone and the battery is dying so I don't have time to go back and read his full post again. Like I said before IF the view is as you said then I disagree with that view. But it would be fair to let him clarify because earlier he said it was an "excuse" used by race baiters.

 

[dawny0826]

Of course you don't. And I know exactly why.

What does that mean?

 

[Alceste]

I don't have a problem calling out the brashness of that post. Though, I will tell you that I don't hold the opinion that white privilege manifests the same way in every American community.

I live in a community that is almost half black and half white. This fluctuates as I also reside in an area with a high percentage of transient military.

In honesty, the most evident type of privilege here in my community is military & civil servant privilege.

I grew up in a community where any given person in power could be white, black or otherwise. And socio-ecnomics and drugs drive the majority of our crime, committed by whites, blacks and otherwise.

I grew up with people of color who were so much wealthier than my family. I tell you honestly, that opportunity has been available on a fairly level playing field at least where I live.

The majority of my bosses have been black women. My own neighborhood is predominately black but, still, a diverse mix.

My point - the experiences and perceptions of some may not match others. Just because I haven't agreed with everything that you've said, I would NEVER discount racism and the issues that are important to people of color.

It does hurt when you tell people in honestly that you've been on the receiving end of racist bullying and your own experiences are discounted because of the color of your skin.

Those experiences helped shape the person that I am as I don't tolerate racism. I chose to work for a neutral organization, so that all of those that I work with are respected and treated according to need, regardless of color and creed.

So, when I look at people who reside in the East End of my city, predominately black and very low income, I do question why this group of people continue to struggle in a way that others aren't. What's different about this part of my city?

I don't consider it racist to ask such a question. If such a community feels underserved and underprivileged, is it not the responsibility of others to listen?

Just because I haven't seen racism where you and others have, doesn't mean that I'm racist or that I don't care about what you and others have to say.

That's a thoughtful post, Dawny. Thanks for chipping in. You are absolutely right that there are many forms of privilege, and it varies widely depending on the demographic, economic and political realities of any given community. On the other hand, some forms are more obvious than others.

There's also absolutely nothing wrong with questioning why some sub-groups within our communities are failing to thrive. In fact, that is an absolutely necessary step to conceiving effective policies to enhance the chances for that particular sub-group.

The problem enters into it when people think they have the answers, when really all they have is a great deal of subconscious xenophobia and a party bag of crude stereotypes and twisted logic with which to rationalize it.

The statement "the only possible reason black people don't succeed in white society is biological" is what comes out of people who start out with questions but come up with really idiotic answers based on nothing but fear and ignorance.

The sort of work you are doing is (if I remember it right, you're some kind of social worker?) what comes out of people who ask those questions, conduct systemic, sociological analysis of the roots of such problems and stick up for solutions that are proven to be effective.

 

[Alceste]

I'm actually on a cellphone and the battery is dying so I don't have time to go back and read his full post again. Like I said before IF the view is as you said then I disagree with that view. But it would be fair to let him clarify because earlier he said it was an "excuse" used by race baiters.

It's a direct quote. First he said the concept of white privilege is an "excuse" for why black people don't succeed in white society, then he followed it up by saying the "only other possible reason" is biological. I don't need him to clarify it. It was completely clear the first time around.

Since your disagreement with that argument is still uncertain, I'll wait until you've looked it over again before I decide whether or not you're a racist.