FGM in Australia and the US: nothing to do with Islam?

[icehorse]

We hear over and over that FGM (female genital mutilation), is a "cultural thing", and has nothing to do with Islam.

But somehow this horrific bit of "culture" seems to have followed Muslim immigrants to Australia. A summary from the links below:

- It's estimated that over 80,000 girls in Australia have had FGM
- It's estimated that there are three such horrible occurrences in Australia EVERY DAY.

New Report on FGM in Australia- 3 girls per day are "at risk" - NOFGM AUSTRALIA | Protecting Girls Empowering Survivors

Women convicted over genital mutilation of girls 'showed no remorse'

Oh, and BTW, about 500,000 girls in the US have suffered FGM or are at risk.

Female genital mutilation in the United States - Wikipedia


Now, I'm a white male, "privileged" some feminists might say. But I have two daughters.

So where is the feminist outrage? Too busy dealing with micro-aggressions and man-splaining?

 

[Rival]

This video also goes a long way to explaining why FGM happens and is a part of Islam

 

[Revoltingest]

So where is the feminist outrage?

It's all over the place.
But it just hasn't been a topic here lately.

MGM is where they're largely silent, or even positively disposed.

 

[icehorse]

Does drawing the religious correlation/causation actually help attain any end in this instance?

First off, remember the context of THIS thread has to do with Australia and the US, not the other locations you mentioned.

Second, really? Understanding the causes of a problem aren't useful in finding solutions???

 

[ADigitalArtist]

It's all over the place.
But it just hasn't been a topic here lately.

MGM is where they're largely silent, or even positively disposed.

Most feminists I know, and myself included, are completely against circumcision. Wrote some articles on it and the trumped up claims of medical benefit, even.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So where is the feminist outrage? Too busy dealing with micro-aggressions and man-splaining?

MGM is where they're largely silent, or even positively disposed.

Maybe you haven't been looking, but there are many, many, many feminists who are strongly against both.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

First off, remember the context of THIS thread has to do with Australia and the US, not the other locations you mentioned.

Second, really? Understanding the causes of a problem aren't useful in finding solutions???

You're assuming the cause. Hence the correlation. Last I checked FGM is endemic to all third world nations and regions with large amount of immigration from those regions. Focusing on the bigger causation that I've seen is education, not religion.

 

[icehorse]

Most feminists I know, and myself included, are completely against circumcision. Wrote some articles on it and the trumped up claims of medical benefit, even.

Would you say that FGM gets as much attention on US campuses as micro-aggressions get? It sure doesn't seem so to me.

 

[icehorse]

You're assuming the cause. Hence the correlation. Last I checked FGM is endemic to all third world nations and regions with large amount of immigration from those regions. Focusing on the bigger causation that I've seen is education, not religion.

I'm not assuming, I'm looking at evidence.

Of course I agree that education is one of our best hopes in a lot of domains - it's what I've devoted my life to, but pretending that FGM isn't an aspect of Islam is not helpful. Did you watch the video that Rival offered?

 

[icehorse]

Maybe you haven't been looking, but there are many, many, many feminists who are strongly against both.

I have been looking. I see many individuals. I see an official organization in Australia. I see international groups. I haven't yet found such an organization in the US.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Would you say that FGM gets as much attention on US campuses as micro-aggressions get? It sure doesn't seem so to me.

This is a starving children in Africa argument, you realize. That unless we solve complicated international crisis we can't discuss the much more addressable domestic problems. Budget cuts leading to gaps in education? Who cares? There are starving children in Africa.

Talking about something common to college life at a college, where the highest ability to affect change exists, is completely rational. Trying to allocate time by emotional appeals to international crisis isn't.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I'm not assuming, I'm looking at evidence.

Of course I agree that education is one of our best hopes in a lot of domains - it's what I've devoted my life to, but pretending that FGM isn't an aspect of Islam is not helpful. Did you watch the video that Rival offered?

No you're not or you'd also be wondering why largely Christian African groups also preform FGM at a higher rate. Instead you're trying to dodge evidence because your aim isn't to give due attention to the issue of FGM, it's to harp on Muslims. Again.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

The Jewish and Christian view on female genital mutilation

 

[Rival]

The Jewish and Christian view on female genital mutilation

From your link:

"While, according to the Hebrew bible, circumcision is required for all male Jewish children in observance of God's commandment to Abraham (Genesis 12-17), female circumcision was never allowed in Judaism, according to the Oxford Dictionary of the Jewish Religion [13]. Buff, in his letter to the editor, states that “any form of female circumcision would be considered bodily mutilation and forbidden under Jewish law” [14]. Yet, a Jewish minority group living in Ethiopia, the so-called Falashas or Beta Israel, practice ritual female genital surgery [15]. Buff believes that “as a persecuted and isolated Jewish enclave for thousands of years, the Falashas did not have access to either definitive Jewish texts or informed rabbinical sources” [14]. In fact, the Falashas practice an archaic form of Judaism, strictly adhering to the Pentateuch, the five books of Moses. They do not speak or read Hebrew. Their bible is written in Ge’ez, which is the clerical language of the Ethiopian and Eritrean orthodox church, and they do not know the other important religious scriptures of Judaism, the Talmud and the Mishnah 16 ; 17."

Tl;dr Jews don't dig FGM and the minority who do are ignorant.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

From your link:

"While, according to the Hebrew bible, circumcision is required for all male Jewish children in observance of God's commandment to Abraham (Genesis 12-17), female circumcision was never allowed in Judaism, according to the Oxford Dictionary of the Jewish Religion [13]. Buff, in his letter to the editor, states that “any form of female circumcision would be considered bodily mutilation and forbidden under Jewish law” [14]. Yet, a Jewish minority group living in Ethiopia, the so-called Falashas or Beta Israel, practice ritual female genital surgery [15]. Buff believes that “as a persecuted and isolated Jewish enclave for thousands of years, the Falashas did not have access to either definitive Jewish texts or informed rabbinical sources” [14]. In fact, the Falashas practice an archaic form of Judaism, strictly adhering to the Pentateuch, the five books of Moses. They do not speak or read Hebrew. Their bible is written in Ge’ez, which is the clerical language of the Ethiopian and Eritrean orthodox church, and they do not know the other important religious scriptures of Judaism, the Talmud and the Mishnah 16 ; 17."

Tl;dr Jews don't dig FGM.

The point of the link was never to imply they did. The point of the link was to show that neither Christians, Jews or Muslims dig FGM but it happens in their ranks anyway, largely in isolated communities with lower educational access and in places those communities have traveled to.
Tl;dr: lack of education is the consistent variable, not any one religious practice.

 

[Rival]

The point of the link was never to imply they did. The point of the link was to show that neither Christians, Jews or Muslims dig FGM but it happens in their ranks anyway, largely in isolated communities with lower educational access and in places those communities have traveled to.

FGM is widely practiced in Muslim enclaves here in the UK. Sure I can agree that lack of education has something to do with it, but isn't the whole cause because the UK has a good education system.

 

[Revoltingest]

Most feminists I know, and myself included, are completely against circumcision. Wrote some articles on it and the trumped up claims of medical benefit, even.

I know that many of you are on my side of this issue. And it's great that you say so.
But I'm continually amazed that so many also favor MGM (usually for religious reasons)
while rejecting the identical argument for FGM (including similarly less drastic versions).
I figure all such cultural/religous cosmetic surgery is for the kid to decide when old enuf.
Tis their choice to decide whether "God's commandment" is malarky or sacred.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

From your link:

"While, according to the Hebrew bible, circumcision is required for all male Jewish children in observance of God's commandment to Abraham (Genesis 12-17), female circumcision was never allowed in Judaism, according to the Oxford Dictionary of the Jewish Religion [13]. Buff, in his letter to the editor, states that “any form of female circumcision would be considered bodily mutilation and forbidden under Jewish law” [14]. Yet, a Jewish minority group living in Ethiopia, the so-called Falashas or Beta Israel, practice ritual female genital surgery [15]. Buff believes that “as a persecuted and isolated Jewish enclave for thousands of years, the Falashas did not have access to either definitive Jewish texts or informed rabbinical sources” [14]. In fact, the Falashas practice an archaic form of Judaism, strictly adhering to the Pentateuch, the five books of Moses. They do not speak or read Hebrew. Their bible is written in Ge’ez, which is the clerical language of the Ethiopian and Eritrean orthodox church, and they do not know the other important religious scriptures of Judaism, the Talmud and the Mishnah 16 ; 17."

Tl;dr Jews don't dig FGM and the minority who do are ignorant.

Although Jews do largely dif MGM, which I find just as disdainful. But that's another tgread for another time.

 

[Augustus]

We hear over and over that FGM (female genital mutilation), is a "cultural thing", and has nothing to do with Islam.

But somehow this horrific bit of "culture" seems to have followed Muslim immigrants to Australia.

Which is a better predictor for FGM among immigrants?

a) religion
b) country of origin

There are very high rates of FGM in many countries (Ethiopia, Guinea, etc.) that spans the religious divide (Muslim, Christian, animist, etc.).

 

[icehorse]

No you're not or you'd also be wondering why largely Christian African groups also preform FGM at a higher rate. Instead you're trying to dodge evidence because your aim isn't to give due attention to the issue of FGM, it's to harp on Muslims. Again.

Yes, I'm really hard on Islam. Islam is a collection of really bad ideas, and FGM is one of them. It's also the case that Islam appears to be the primary way that the practice of FGM gets spread around the world.