FGM in Australia and the US: nothing to do with Islam?

[Shadow Wolf]

The Baha'i faith is a female friendly Abrahamic which doesn't practice FGM

Most Christians don't, but the Bible is still a bane to the existence of women. I don't know much about the Baha'i faith, but it is a commandment of the Abrahamic god that women doing their normal natural thing makes them unclean. Doubly unclean if they give birth to a girl rather than a boy (even though this "omniscient" god made it so sperm provided by men determine the sex of a baby).

 

[paarsurrey]

It's in the Hadith several times - watch the video that Rival pointed to early in this thread.

Hadith was collected 250/300 years after Muhammad, it did not exist in the times of Muhammad. Quran is the law of religion of Islam and it is the first and the foremost source of guidance of Islam/Quran/Muhammad, whatever the denomination.
Hadith is only to be accepted if it is not against Quran.
Regards

 

[icehorse]

Hadith was collected 250/300 years after Muhammad, it did not exist in the times of Muhammad. Quran is the law of religion of Islam and it is the first and the foremost source of guidance of Islam/Quran/Muhammad, whatever the denomination.
Hadith is only to be accepted if it is not against Quran.
Regards

And when the Quran is silent on a topic, the Hadith is used, correct?

 

[danieldemol]

Most Christians don't, but the Bible is still a bane to the existence of women. I don't know much about the Baha'i faith, but it is a commandment of the Abrahamic god that women doing their normal natural thing makes them unclean. Doubly unclean if they give birth to a girl rather than a boy (even though this "omniscient" god made it so sperm provided by men determine the sex of a baby).

Baha'u'llah abolished the concept of ritual unclean-ness and declared women equal to men

 

[Sakeenah]

I would ask you to watch the video that Rival linked to near the beginning of this thread. In this video several examples from the Hadith are cited, and they pretty clearly call for FGM.

Thanks, I've watched the video I'm familiar with the hadiths and fatwa website he quoted.

The first few hadiths he quoted are regarding male circumcision. The only hadith that does clearly mention female circumcision is the hadith compiled by Abu Da'ud. This hadith was graded to be weak by Abu Da'ud himself. It doesn't suprise me that the guy in the video didn't mention this.

Let's assume this hadith is authentic for the sake of this discussion.
Islamic law has well defined tradition of jurisprudence.The sources of Islamic law include both revelation(Quran/hadiths) and reason. The efforts of scholars to attain understanding of the shariah through various tools is called ijtihaad.
One fundamental of the Islamic law is that what is not haram(prohibited)is halal( allowed). As a result of this some pre-Islamic practices were not got rid of immediately by Islam.
At the same time pre-Islamic practices are overruled by the Islamic prohibition against harmful acts. For example, Islamic law protects a woman's right to sexual enjoyment. The proof for this is the fact that a woman has the right to divorce on the grounds that her husband does not meet her sexual needs. Islamic law prohibits partial or complete removal of the clitoris or stitching/narrowing of the vaginal opening or any genital mutilation which effects the woman's ability to enjoy sexual relations.

Conclusion is Islamic law does not allow FGM even if this hadith would have been considered authentic.

 

[icehorse]

Conclusion is Islamic law does not allow FGM even if this hadith would have been considered authentic.

I appreciate your thoughtful response. But clearly, many people in the world disagree with you. So in your opinion, is the source of these FGM-believers African cultures that have somehow influenced Islamic cultures? That seems implausible.

 

[Notanumber]

This woman says that she chose to undergo FGM, which is her right, but what rights do six year old girls have when this life changing procedure is forced upon them.

Surely, a Religion of Peace would respect that little girls human rights and outlaw the practice whether it is cultural or not.

 

[Sakeenah]

I appreciate your thoughtful response. But clearly, many people in the world disagree with you. So in your opinion, is the source of these FGM-believers African cultures that have somehow influenced Islamic cultures? That seems implausible.

like I mentioned in my previous post.
FGM is an ancient cultural practice, it originated in ancient Egypt. It was practiced in Africa long before Islam and christianity.Majority muslim coutries like Somalia and majority Christian coutries such as Ethopia continued performing FGM after converting to Islam and Christianity.

"In the Nile valley, it appears certain that the practices predated and survived the spread of Christianity to the ruling groups of Nile Valley Kingdoms in Sudan in the Sixth Century C.E. waves of Arab migration came later, initially nomadic groups who began to intermarry with the indigenous Nile Valley people. Later, Arab identity was strengthened when Islamic teachers and Sufis successfully spread the new religion in northern Sudan, where it became the dominant religion by about 1500 C.E. … In Sudan, pharaonic circumcision along with other pre-Islamic or non-Islamic beliefs and practices was successfully syncretized into the Sudanese Islamic belief system.
(Ellen Gruenbaum, The FemaleCircumcision Controversy, 44.)

 

[Sakeenah]

This woman says that she chose to undergo FGM, which is her right, but what rights do six year old girls have when this life changing procedure is forced upon them.
Surely, a Religion of Peace would respect that little girls human rights and outlaw the practice whether it is cultural or not.

I explained why FGM is prohibited in Islamic Law in post #138

 

[icehorse]

FGM is an ancient cultural practice, it originated in ancient Egypt.

For the sake of discussion, let's say that's 100% true.

What has happened in practice - and to this day is happening to millions of girls - is that Muslims felt the practice was quite in keeping with Islam, so they have been more than happy to spread this practice wherever they go. Of course this is an extremely misogynistic practice, so it's not surprising that followers of the extremely misogynistic ideology called Islam would embrace and promote this horrific activity.

 

[icehorse]

I explained why FGM is prohibited in Islamic Law in post #138

Again, let's say that somehow we could determine that your interpretation of Islam is "the correct one".

The fact that tens of millions of Muslims disagree with you discredits the claim that Islam is perfect. When ANY set of ideas is frequently misinterpreted, that tends to cast suspicion over the quality of the ideas themselves, wouldn't you say? In other words, how can Islam be "perfect" when it seems that so many Muslims get it wrong?

 

[Sakeenah]

For the sake of discussion, let's say that's 100% true.

What has happened in practice - and to this day is happening to millions of girls - is that Muslims felt the practice was quite in keeping with Islam, so they have been more than happy to spread this practice wherever they go. Of course this is an extremely misogynistic practice, so it's not surprising that followers of the extremely misogynistic ideology called Islam would embrace and promote this horrific activity.

That's incorrect Islam and Muslims did not embrace this.
The Muslims that practice FGM today are those who have done it before Islam. This is the same for the Christians,animists etc.

According to Unicef the practice of FGM is mostly limited to central Africa. It's not common in Morocco ,Algeria,Libya,Saudi Arabia,Oman, Jordan, Syria,Iran and many other Muslim coutries.

 

[Sakeenah]

Again, let's say that somehow we could determine that your interpretation of Islam is "the correct one".

The fact that tens of millions of Muslims disagree with you discredits the claim that Islam is perfect. When ANY set of ideas is frequently misinterpreted, that tends to cast suspicion over the quality of the ideas themselves, wouldn't you say? In other words, how can Islam be "perfect" when it seems that so many Muslims get it wrong?

This is not my interpretation of Islam,what I explained is one of the foundations of jurisprudence in Islamic Law.Something that is harmful to your body cannot be permissible.

I'm not sure where you get the number "more than ten milion" from, but let's say more than 10 milion disagree, this means the majority agrees with me because there are 1.6 bilion muslims. The conclusion would be that there's consesus on the prohibition of FGM.

Muslims can disagree with each other in Islamic jurisprudence issues.
Principles of Islamic jurisprudence - Wikipedia
We aren't discussing if Islam is perfect or not, we are discussing FGM in Islam.

 

[icehorse]

This is not my interpretation of Islam,what I explained is one of the foundations of jurisprudence in Islamic Law.Something that is harmful to your body cannot be permissible.

I'm not sure where you get the number "more than ten milion" from, but let's say more than 10 milion disagree, this means the majority agrees with me because there are 1.6 bilion muslims. The conclusion would be that there's consesus on the prohibition of FGM.

Muslims can disagree with each other in Islamic jurisprudence issues.
Principles of Islamic jurisprudence - Wikipedia
We aren't discussing if Islam is perfect or not, we are discussing FGM in Islam.

The practice of FGM often comes with Muslim immigrants. They brought it to Australia, the UK, the US, and throughout Europe. I think that any claim that this isn't a common practice in Muslim communities all over the world is simply an invalid claim. And again, it's in the Hadith, and whether YOU say it's a strong Hadith or a weak one or whatever, millions of Muslims disagree with you.

 

[Sakeenah]

The practice of FGM often comes with Muslim immigrants. They brought it to Australia, the UK, the US, and throughout Europe. I think that any claim that this isn't a common practice in Muslim communities all over the world is simply an invalid claim. And again, it's in the Hadith, and whether YOU say it's a strong Hadith or a weak one or whatever, millions of Muslims disagree with you.

The practice of FGM often comes with immigrants that are from a country where it's practiced. This doesn't necessarily mean they are muslims,region place a bigger role than religion.

That the hadith is weak is not my opinion it's the opinion of the hadith recorder himself. This Hadith is widely regarded as a weak tradition amongst Islamic scholars throughout history.
Muslim scholars from the region where FGM is practiced have condemned FGM, here are some examples:

-in 2005 a dean of Al-Azhar University of Cairo declared infibulations a criminal act.
Islam does not support female circumcision - Expert

-International Islamic Conference held in Cairo the following year in 2006 converged specifically to condemn infibulations.
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Call to end female circumcision

-Sheikh Ali Gomaa of Egypt issued a fatwa in 2007 against infibulations.
Egyptian Clerics Say Female Circumcision Un-Islamic

-2008 another East African country saw Somali Islamic scholars in Kenya call for an end to infibulations.
http://www.intactnetwork.net/intact/cp/files/1297081681_Islamic Scholars Find No%20Religious%20Justification%20for%20FGMC.pdf

-Then in January of 2010, 35 Islamic scholars in the West Coast African country of Mauritania banned infibulations.
BBC News - Mauritania fatwa bans female genital mutilation

 

[icehorse]

Muslim scholars from the region where FGM is practiced have condemned FGM, here are some examples:

Well apparently there are a lot of Muslims who don't care what the scholars say, correct?

Once again, apologists say over and over again "those Muslims are getting it wrong". Well if so many people have been getting it wrong for so many centuries, it seems to me the messages themselves are suspect.

 

[Revoltingest]

In the news....
A Virginia imam said female genital mutilation prevents ‘hypersexuality,’ leading to calls for his dismissal

 

[Revoltingest]

Michiganistan is in the news....
Feds drop bombshell: Up to 100 girls may have had their genitals cut in Michigan

From the article...
A federal prosecutor dropped a bombshell in court Wednesday, telling a federal judge that the government estimates that as many as 100 girls may have had their genitals cut at the hands of a local doctor and her cohorts.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Sara Woodward disclosed the information while trying to convince a judge to keep a doctor and his wife locked up in the historic case. It involves allegations that two Minnesota girls had their genitals cut at a Livonia clinic in February as part of a religious rite of passage and were told to keep what happened a secret.

"Due to the secretive nature of this procedure, we are unlikely to ever know how many children were cut by Dr. (Jumana) Nagarwala," Woodward said, referring to the lead defendant in the case, later adding, "The Minnesota victims were not the first victims."