FGM in Australia and the US: nothing to do with Islam?

[ADigitalArtist]

Yes, yes, yes we get it ADA - it's not black and white. But stop trying to paint all shades of gray as being equal, they are not. There are plenty of ideas in Sharia that are held predominantly, it IS a collection of ideas that can be criticized.

Such as? So far none of the polls I've seen you give were about individual tenets, just about sharia law in general with no clarification as to what that means to believers.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Are Muhammaden women put on this earth just to reproduce?

They definitely were according to Paul of the Christian Abrahamics:
1 Timothy 2:15

But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

But, considering Leviticus 15:19, I don't see how any of the Abrahamic religions can be said to be female-friendly.

And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even.

Really, the only significant difference among the three is that one of them still has a much larger group of violent adherents who are willing to kill and die, while one tries to **** all over everyone they don't agree with and have their rights terminated (which still results in some deaths such as LBGT youth who are severely bullied in high school by Christians), and one more or less largely tends to keep to themselves from what I can tell. And if you live in America, only one of those groups poses a political/social/education/environmental threat.

 

[icehorse]

How in the world to you intend to support the scarcity of dogma in anti-theists? Seems a dogmatic claim inofitself.

Yes ADA, in general proving the absence of a thing is an uphill battle. I would say that most critical thinkers would say that the burden is on you to prove your initial claim that antitheists are frequently dogmatic. Now if you want to soften that claim and say that antitheists are occasionally dogmatic, then we can move on.

We can conclude however, since theism is the predominant mindset in the world, that for a person to hold that theism is bad would typically require critical thinking, not dogma. It is after all, not a popular position to hold.

 

[icehorse]

Such as? So far none of the polls I've seen you give were about individual tenets, just about sharia law in general with no clarification as to what that means to believers.

I could say LMGTFY, but here goes:

1 - Most of the world's Muslims want Sharia to be the law of the land. This in itself shows a common mindset, that of theocracy.
2 - A high percentage want religious law to be applied to "family law".
3 - A high percentage favor corporal punishment.
4 - A high percentage think apostasy is a capital crime.
5 - A high percentage believe morality must come from god.
6 - A high percentage believe the following are wrong:
- homosexuality,
- prostitution,
- extramarital sex,
- alcohol,
- abortion.
7 - A high percentage think women should be veiled AND that wives must obey their husbands.
8 - A high percentage think religious leaders should have political influence.

9 - A high percentage think Sharia should have only one interpretation !
10 - A high percentage think Sharia should apply to non-Muslims.
11 - A high percentage think stoning should be the punishment for adultery.
12 - A scary percentage (maybe 10-15% ?), think suicide bombs against civilians can be justified.
13 - A significant percentage believe in polygamy.
14 - A scary percentage (maybe 30%?), think that when a women has extra-marital sex, honor killing can be justified.
15 - A high percentage believe sons should inherit more than daughters.
16 - A high percentage believe only Islam leads to heaven!
17 - A high percentage believe that evangelism is a religious duty.
18 - An extremely high percentage have ONLY other Muslims as friends.
19 - A scary percentage believe science conflicts with Islam.
20 - A high percentage are critical of western entertainment.

That's a start. You can read more here:

The World’s Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society

(sorry, edited to point to the main page)

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Yes ADA, in general proving the absence of a thing is an uphill battle. I would say that most critical thinkers would say that the burden is on you to prove your initial claim that antitheists are frequently dogmatic. Now if you want to soften that claim and say that antitheists are occasionally dogmatic, then we can move on.

We can conclude however, since theism is the predominant mindset in the world, that for a person to hold that theism is bad would typically require critical thinking, not dogma. It is after all, not a popular position to hold.

Popularity has nothing to do with critical thinking. And all I said was that some of the anti-theists I've met were the most dogmatic people I knew and why. You aren't being asked to prove a negative. You're being asked to support your statistical claim that dogmatic antitheism is "rare."

I could say LMGTFY, but here goes:

1 - Most of the world's Muslims want Sharia to be the law of the land. This in itself shows a common mindset, that of theocracy.
2 - A high percentage want religious law to be applied to "family law".
3 - A high percentage favor corporal punishment.
4 - A high percentage think apostasy is a capital crime.
5 - A high percentage believe morality must come from god.
6 - A high percentage believe the following are wrong:
- homosexuality,
- prostitution,
- extramarital sex,
- alcohol,
- abortion.
7 - A high percentage think women should be veiled AND that wives must obey their husbands.
8 - A high percentage think religious leaders should have political influence.

9 - A high percentage think Sharia should have only one interpretation !
10 - A high percentage think Sharia should apply to non-Muslims.
11 - A high percentage think stoning should be the punishment for adultery.
12 - A scary percentage (maybe 10-15% ?), think suicide bombs against civilians can be justified.
13 - A significant percentage believe in polygamy.
14 - A scary percentage (maybe 30%?), think that when a women has extra-marital sex, honor killing can be justified.
15 - A high percentage believe sons should inherit more than daughters.
16 - A high percentage believe only Islam leads to heaven!
17 - A high percentage believe that evangelism is a religious duty.
18 - An extremely high percentage have ONLY other Muslims as friends.
19 - A scary percentage believe science conflicts with Islam.
20 - A high percentage are critical of western entertainment.

That's a start. You can read more here:

Appendix B: Glossary

This is going to have to wait until I'm at a computer, not my phone, to really get this home. But I've already responded to the pews and it's usage here.
To start with, your defining terms of "high, significant, scary" is vague and inconsistent. It says right in there that over half of the Muslims polled believe Sharia should only apply to Muslims. And there's illustrations throughout the poll that what Sharia is and how it should be used to govern differ wildly.
Also not sure why you included that bit about 'things Muslims think are wrong when the same could be said of that list with the majority of Abrahamic faiths with the exception of alcohol.

 

[icehorse]

Popularity has nothing to do with critical thinking.

In general, I try to discuss predominant cases. It seems that you're often countering with edge cases. That "edge case" orientation seems obfuscatory to me, is it?

You're being asked to support your statistical claim that dogmatic antitheism is "rare."

Again, proving a lack of a thing is an unusual request. I'm happy to leave it at your statement that you were providing anecdotal evidence.

As for my summaries, I was doing some summary math, it should be MORE than sufficient for this discussion.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

In general, I try to discuss predominant cases. It seems that you're often countering with edge cases. That "edge case" orientation seems obfuscatory to me, is it?

You haven't proven that you're representing predominant cases, or that the objections to it are "edge."

Again, proving a lack of a thing is an unusual request. I'm happy to leave it at your statement that you were providing anecdotal evidence.

Antitheism has never been anti-dogma. Some of the most dogmatic people I've met us the term. They just pretend their anti religious rhetoric is something other than dogma.

was my original quote. I still stand by it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes ADA, in general proving the absence of a thing is an uphill battle. I would say that most critical thinkers would say that the burden is on you to prove your initial claim that antitheists are frequently dogmatic. Now if you want to soften that claim and say that antitheists are occasionally dogmatic, then we can move on.

I'm not sure if that is how the issue should be approached. Atheists in general do not have a set of scriptures or sacred texts to follow. This prevents thinking like "The Bible says this, so end of discussion," but it does not prevent thinking like "end of discussion." And then of course we can bring GMOs into the debate, which shows that many atheists and liberals are not willing to budge on their positions or even consider the other side that they may not be as dangerous as believed and in many cases the benefits outweigh the risks.

 

[icehorse]

I'm not sure if that is how the issue should be approached. Atheists in general do not have a set of scriptures or sacred texts to follow. This prevents thinking like "The Bible says this, so end of discussion," but it does not prevent thinking like "end of discussion." And then of course we can bring GMOs into the debate, which shows that many atheists and liberals are not willing to budge on their positions or even consider the other side that they may not be as dangerous as believed and in many cases the benefits outweigh the risks.

Wait, wait, no fair assuming you can lump atheists and liberals into one big heap

As for GMOs - there seem to be some anti-GMO labeling folks here - I'm pro GMO labeling, should be a new thread!

 

[LuisDantas]

TLDR:
I'd much rather Muslims use a no-true scotsman instead of being incapable of recognizing what extremist groups are doing wrong.

Fair enough. Still, I can't must much enthusiasm for the reliance on that scotsman.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

The problem is that Muslims defend every jot and tiddle of Islam. If a decent percentage of Muslims were to acknowledge that Islam has some flaws - like every other ideology - then of course alienating a 1.6 billion people wouldn't be a great approach. But Muslims stand firm. Islam is simply NOT to be criticized. That makes them pretty challenging to problem solve with.

Exactly this. When the British former gymnast Louis Smith was getting pilloried for mocking Islam the head of the Ramadan Foundation, Mohamed Shafiq, hit out with the imperious instruction "Our faith is not to be mocked. Our faith is to be celebrated". Now while I don't feel that Smith's actions were in any way a criticism - he was just making fun of the faith because he could - it's this exact attitude among Muslims that you rightly point out is such a barrier to dialogue. While not all mockery is criticism, and it could be that Shafiq was referring to this specific type of mockery, to my eyes it seems indicative of the Muslim propensity to refuse to recognise a problem even exists with Islam; that if there is a fault, it must be with the non-believers. It's also this rampant denialism that sees Maajid Nawaz called a non-Muslim because he's one of the few who realises there is a problem with Islamic doctrine itself when it comes to accommodating intolerance.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Evidence that those who practice it in the UK were educated there? And again, evidence of 'wide practice'?

It seems that most FMG in the UK is amongst girls born here, but then taken to their families homeland for the procedure to be done.
It also seems to be cultural rather than religious, as both Christian and Muslims are involved
Most female incomers from those same countries have had FMG.
It looks like it will take several generations to stamp it out in the UK.
I can only find one case Of FMG being prosecuted in the UK.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Here's something I think needs to be taken into consideration when dealing with Muslims and criticizing Islam.
Muslims are not supposed to wage war against nations which are not Muslim, according to the Quran.

As a result, heretical claims have lead Muslims to use Islam as a set of principles that must be upheld to be a Muslim, rather than just a claim about belief. This is why we hear Muslims saying things like "X terrorist group aren't real muslims."

I don't really think that's fair, but I'd much rather people in the Muslim world be comfortable with dealing with armed groups which violate the principles which they feel qualifies someone as a real Muslim.

So honestly, I'd much rather Muslims took the "they aren't true Muslims" position and defend their conception of Islam to the death instead of being incapable of criticizing people who identify as Muslim.

Muslim people are going to be more accepting of criticism of crimes and immoral practice done by those who are Islamic if the practice is condemned rather than if we claim it is Islam.

TLDR:
I'd much rather Muslims use a no-true scotsman instead of being incapable of recognizing what extremist groups are doing wrong.

With emphasis on this sentence in bold, by doing the first bit they are by default doing the second bit because in order to be able to criticise extremist groups like IS, Muslims have to first disassociate them from being Muslims. They're already exhibiting the very attitude you claim they aren't. Decrying someone as 'not a true Muslim' seems to be a precursor to offering any criticism or condemnation of extremists' actions.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I don't understand what you are referring to here.

I should have been more clear. You claim here (to my eyes, this is how it reads):

So honestly, I'd much rather Muslims took the "they aren't true Muslims" position and defend their conception of Islam to the death instead of being incapable of criticizing people who identify as Muslim.

...that you'd rather Muslims engaged in the NTS fallacy rather than not being capable of criticising other Muslims. But the problem with this
is that by making disassociation of groups like IS as 'non-Muslims' a necessary preface to any criticism or condemnation of their actions, Muslims who do this are refusing to criticise other Muslims. They're rendering distasteful actions 'unIslamic' out of hand in order to protect the preconceived notion that Islam is the perfect religion.

 

[danieldemol]

They definitely were according to Paul of the Christian Abrahamics:
1 Timothy 2:15

But, considering Leviticus 15:19, I don't see how any of the Abrahamic religions can be said to be female-friendly.

The Baha'i faith is a female friendly Abrahamic which doesn't practice FGM

 

[Sakeenah]

We hear over and over that FGM (female genital mutilation), is a "cultural thing", and has nothing to do with Islam.

But somehow this horrific bit of "culture" seems to have followed Muslim immigrants to Australia. A summary from the links below:

- It's estimated that over 80,000 girls in Australia have had FGM
- It's estimated that there are three such horrible occurrences in Australia EVERY DAY.

New Report on FGM in Australia- 3 girls per day are "at risk" - NOFGM AUSTRALIA | Protecting Girls Empowering Survivors

Women convicted over genital mutilation of girls 'showed no remorse'

Oh, and BTW, about 500,000 girls in the US have suffered FGM or are at risk.

Female genital mutilation in the United States - Wikipedia


Now, I'm a white male, "privileged" some feminists might say. But I have two daughters.

So where is the feminist outrage? Too busy dealing with micro-aggressions and man-splaining?

Australia and US have a large East and West African population. Majority are first generation immigrants so it doesn't suprise me that there are 80,000 women/girls that have had FGM.

FGM is an ancient cultural practice, it originated in ancient Egypt and then spread to East Africa.That's why FGM is called 'pharaonic circumcision' in many of these countries. The earliest record of the custom was made by Strabo, the Greek geographer and historian who reported curcimcision on Egyptian girls in 25BC. FGM was spread by tribes and civilizations as a result of tribal, ethnic, and cultural allegiances.

There is no undeniable link between FGM and Islam. FGM is done in those countries by Muslims,Christians,Jews(Beta Israel-Ethopian Jews),animists and those with no religion.For example in Kenya FGM is the highest among Catholics and Protestants compared with other religious groups.

Professor Ellen Grurenbaum describes how FGM may have become linked with Islam:

“In the Nile valley, it appears certain that the practices predated and survived the spread of Christianity to the ruling groups of Nile Valley Kingdoms in Sudan in the Sixth Century C.E. waves of Arab migration came later, initially nomadic groups who began to intermarry with the indigenous Nile Valley people. Later, Arab identity was strengthened when Islamic teachers and Sufis successfully spread the new religion in northern Sudan, where it became the dominant religion by about 1500 C.E. … In Sudan, pharaonic circumcision along with other pre-Islamic or non-Islamic beliefs and practices was successfully syncretized into the Sudanese Islamic belief system.
(Ellen Gruenbaum, The Female Circumcision Controversy, 44.)

FGM is a horrific practice and it has no place in Islam. I'm originally East African and I'm familiar with the Somali,Ethopian and Yemeni culture.
It doesn't have anything to do with religion,it's about continuing an ancient cultural practice to preserve your daughter's honour in society.

 

[Sakeenah]

This is also one of the problems with Islam. It has volumes upon volumes of ahadith that can contradict each other widely. I believe you that these Imams are invoking Muhammad, but so are those who practice FGM. This is worsened by the fact that within the Ummah there is no central authority similar to a Pope or anything, so Muslims can differ widely in the same issue and each can bring a hadith to back his assertion.

Hi Rival
I haven't read all the posts in this thread. What is your definition of FGM? And can you quote the ahadith about FGM? I think I know which hadith you are referring to, but I just want to make sure that we are talking about the same hadith before writing a long post.

 

[icehorse]

There is no undeniable link between FGM and Islam.

I would ask you to watch the video that Rival linked to near the beginning of this thread. In this video several examples from the Hadith are cited, and they pretty clearly call for FGM.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Islam is clearly about respecting women. This cannot be denied. There's no better way to express your respect for women than to mutilate their genitalia and ensure that they will never receive any pleasure from sex. You twisted demons of the West have absolutely no respect for your women - letting them run around with intact genitalia - allowing them to receive sexual pleasure. For shame.

 

[Notanumber]

If this man is right –

and Allah is the bee’s knees of a god, how come he turned out to be so incompetent that mere mortals have to correct his mistakes?