FGM in Australia and the US: nothing to do with Islam?

[Rival]

And I pointed out that the problem isn't witg Islam, showing evidence both of the practice outside Islam and condemnation within, and called the accusation that this is inherently a problem with Islam is reductionist.

Shari'a, which is inherently Islamic, states that a woman's testimony is worth half a man's and that women can only inherit half (iirc). This is Islamic based misogyny that is in practice in places such as the KSA today.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Purveyors of dogma intend for their flavor to be incontrovertible. The anti-theists I'm aware of will all change their opinions, given good evidence. You are conflating controversial truth claims with dogma, they are two very separate ideas.

a : something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet

I didn't see those views as presented as anything but dogma, under a thin veil as easily discarded as when a fundamentalist claims their opinion could be swayed by the right evidence.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

, say, committing adultery is a crime worthy of death

You lost me here.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

MGM is an important topic. But it is in no way equivalent to FGM.

True, but if you ask me, and non-necessary body modification performed on an infant/child should be banned. To clarify, I am only very marginally and barely ok with little girls getting their ears pierced because I do not believe body modifications are for children. Sniping off a clitoris and labia or foreskin should land absolutely nothing less than severely heavy fines fines and charges of child abuse and should be, ideally, universally condemned and denounced.

 

[Rival]

You lost me here.

You lost me when you failed to read the rest of the post.

The idea is they did not actually put them to death.

Sweet Jesus. Egads you feminists and liberals are so annoying.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I didn't see those views as presented as anything but dogma, under a thin veil as easily discarded as when a fundamentalist claims their opinion could be swayed by the right evidence.

Entirely anecdotal, but this anti-theist I use to debate a lot in school, he seemed to have this problem of not understanding and trying to understand me if I presented an argument that wasn't entirely congruent with his world view, which pretty much killed the debate at that point because he would attach so many assumptions that the attempts to remove those assumptions became time consuming and often futile. The only real example I can recall is when I mentioned I'd rather listen to a Rabbi and a Christian debate about morality and god rather than an atheist and Christian, and no matter what I said this guy just did not see how a "Rabbi v. Christian" would be, a) comical watching a Rabbi correcting a Christian about what Jews really believe and what the Tanakh actually says, but more importantly how it provides a much greater learning opportunity and means for hearing points and arguments we haven't already heard a million times already. "It's still all bull****" is what he left it at.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Shari'a, which is inherently Islamic, states that a woman's testimony is worth half a man's and that women can only inherit half (iirc). This is Islamic based misogyny that is in practice in places such as the KSA today.

Firstly, Sharia doesn't mean the same thing to all Muslims. Secondly, this particular instruction has different meanings to different Muslims. The Testimony of Women in Islamic Law by Dr. Taha Jaber Al-Alwani
Thirdly, misogyny is institutionalized in all three, as women are not allowed to play equal parts in spiritual matters as men, and all three make appeals to gender roles to put women at a disadvantaged place for decision making. And, again, it used to be worse but is slowly getting better in all three.

 

[Notanumber]

If anyone is an expert on the subject, it has to be this survivor of Islam.

Are Muhammaden women put on this earth just to reproduce?

Why do western leaders fail to listen to her?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

You lost me when you failed to read the rest of the post.

The idea is they did not actually put them to death.

Sweet Jesus. Egads you feminists and liberals are so annoying.

Except there is actual historical evidence that they did put people to death, and the value judgement is problematic, whether they tried to allow for mercy or not.

You're free to walk away.

 

[Rival]

Firstly, Sharia doesn't mean the same thing to all Muslims. Secondly, this particular instruction has different meanings to different Muslims. The Testimony of Women in Islamic Law by Dr. Taha Jaber Al-Alwani
Thirdly, misogyny is institutionalized in all three, as women are not allowed to play equal parts in spiritual matters as men, and all three make appeals to gender roles to put women at a disadvantaged place for decision making. And, again, it used to be worse but is slowly getting better in all three.

I give up.

Your knowledge of Islam and Abrahamic religion in general is poor. Sorry. Have a nice day.

 

[Rival]

Except there is actual historical evidence that they did put people to death, and the value judgement is problematic, whether they tried to allow for mercy or not.

You're free to walk away.

I never said they didn't put anyone to death. I said it was considered bloody when they did and that they took all pains to avoid that. If you'd have actually read my post, you'd know this.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Ezekiel 18:32:
For I take no pleasure in anyone's death." This is the declaration of the L-rd G-D. "So repent and live!"

Then why does it demand death for rebellious children, women who aren't virgins on their marriage night, worshiping other gods, revenge for murder, the butchering of men, women, and children when the Jews went to war, and of course Sodom and Gomorrah, Noah's Flood, Lot's wife, etc., etc., etc.?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I give up.

Your knowledge of Islam and Abrahamic religion in general is poor. Sorry. Have a nice day.

Christian/Bible laws and principles don't even mean the same thing to all Christians, so why should we assume Sharia means the same thing to all Muslims? Even the "ZOMG!!!" Pew studies people like to post to condemn the Muslim world clearly show that not all Muslims agree as to what Sharia exactly entails.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I never said they didn't put anyone to death. I said it was considered bloody when they did and that they took all pains to avoid that. If you'd have actually read my post, you'd know this.

I did read your post. I just don't think that 'They tried hard to not execute people for adultery or homosexuality and it was sad when they did' is very impressive.

 

[Rival]

And you've let hate be the determiner of judgement, not knowledge. I've seen your lashing out enough to see that.
See you later, mate.

So this is your argument? I consider Islam inherently misogynistic and it's 'hate'?

You consider all Abrahamic faiths to be bad for women, but that's not hate?

Please.

 

[icehorse]

Firstly, Sharia doesn't mean the same thing to all Muslims.

Yes, yes, yes we get it ADA - it's not black and white. But stop trying to paint all shades of gray as being equal, they are not. There are plenty of ideas in Sharia that are held predominantly, it IS a collection of ideas that can be criticized.

 

[icehorse]

a : something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet

I didn't see those views as presented as anything but dogma, under a thin veil as easily discarded as when a fundamentalist claims their opinion could be swayed by the right evidence.

There is decent to strong evidence for all of the claims you cited as being dogmatic. And once again, apart from fascists, antitheists *tend* to be fans of evidence. Of course *some* antitheists might be dogmatic, but it is a rare attribute, not a common characteristic.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

So this is your argument? I consider Islam inherently misogynistic and it's 'hate'?

You consider all Abrahamic faiths to be bad for women, but that's not hate?

Please.

Nope, I don't. Because I separate religious texts from believers, and I can see that Muslims, Christians and Jews have incredibly dynamic and varied opinions on how they should approach women's issues, some individuals with more success than others.
Do I think the bible, Torah and Quran are misogynistic? Totally. Do I think Jews, Christians and Muslims are inherently misogynistic? No. Do I think that trying to group them all into one belief set and make judgements in broad strokes is productive? Hell no.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes, yes, yes we get it ADA - it's not black and white. But stop trying to paint all shades of gray as being equal, they are not. There are plenty of ideas in Sharia that are held predominantly, it IS a collection of ideas that can be criticized.

The way I see religions, they are what they are.
Sounds simplistic, but here's how it works.....
No matter what the governing scripture says, it will be interpreted differently by
different people & sects. If some people say FGM is part of their religion, then it is.
Whether they're scripturally wrong or not is irrelevant. Religion will dictate culture
& vice versa....a complex relationship between the two....each affecting the other.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

There is decent to strong evidence for all of the claims you cited as being dogmatic. And once again, apart from fascists, antitheists *tend* to be fans of evidence. Of course *some* antitheists might be dogmatic, but it is a rare attribute, not a common characteristic.

How in the world to you intend to support the scarcity of dogma in anti-theists? Seems a dogmatic claim inofitself.