Fighting Two Fronts

[Ben Masada]

Got here late for this one!....sorry...But for those who might be leaning to nay saying.....here's your sign....

You are mistaken my friend. It is never too late for the truth.

If you say the universe (one word) is not a creation of spirit....your spirit is a conundrum.and you are the sum of your chemistry.When your chemistry fails...so do you.Back to the ground you go.

And so will you, just like anyone else.

If you say the universe (one word) is a creation...Then Someone will be standing over you when you lay down to surrender your last breath. Standing up from your flesh into a spiritual life may require 'permission'...from your Creator.

That won't happened because it is written that man was cast out of the Garden of Eden so that he would not eat from the tree of life and live forever. (Gen. 3:22) It means there is no eternal life to anyone but to God only.

And hey Ben!....Offering your renounced belief ....if you can be proven wrong?.....

I am ready to be proved wrong. If you succeed, I'll surely renounce my beliefs.

Perhaps you don't believe in the devil? Even under the banner of belief...you're not altogether protected. Have you read Job?

That's right, I don't believe in the devil as a real being but as a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man. Perhaps, that's precisely the reason why I feel myself protected by Reason. The book of Job? I have read it several times. What would you like to know?

 

[Meow Mix]

Aristotle said that something cannot come out of nothing. This is an argument of Aristotle's I am referring to, and I am open to criticism and argumentation. Is it fallacious?

And that's fine -- that's not where you started being fallacious. The fallacy was when you were making statements like "I think Aristotle knows better than you" and so on as if his claims are infallible.

Aristotle's claim is in fact incorrect -- matter does appear out of nothing in the quantum vacuum. Aristotle is correct as far as energy/mass are concerned, but not correct when it comes to matter. Matter is routinely appearing and disappearing into and out of nothing.

Okay, never mind the man. If what he said is fallatious, can you prove that something can come out of nothing?

Yes. Quantum fluctuation demonstrates that matter indeed comes out of nothing as a matter of routine, and disappears into nothing. As I stated before you can even build an apparatus at home to test this via the casimir effect. Know also that all modern electronics rely on this principle and there are many independently discovered manifestations of the fact -- for instance, Hawking radiation shows through independent means than normal quantum electrodynamics that matter spontaneously appears and disappears in a quantum vacuum.

No, insteady of trying to locate back your assertions, I prefer to watch you for further baseless claims.

That's fair, and I actually appreciate being kept in check as I don't ever want to actively make claims I can't support.

Oh! I never expected you to ask such a question, because I had thought you to be much smarter than that. "The four corners of the earth" is a Biblical expression which means from all over the world. I wonder how you didn't know about that nuance. You have confirmed my views that Atheists do not understand metaphorical language in the Bible. I am only sorry that you of all Atheists had to be the one to confirm my views.

It's true, my understanding of the metaphorical language is probably pretty tenuous. I question why the language wouldn't be clear in such an ostensibly important work in the first place, though.

Most definitely metaphorical language. And all the Genesis account of creation is a huge metaphorical allegory.

I can appreciate that view, sure.

And what did you think it would be to catch God at His work of creation, to surprize Him as if He were trying to hide Himself at creation? MM, please, not again! And who believes in a literal mind of God? Only the believers of anthropomorphic gods. To be aware of the "mind of God" is metaphorical of learning about God through creation. And last but not least, Einstein and Spinoza were not pagans or Gentiles to believe that the universe was God.

Feynman once likened physics to a man who doesn't know the rules of chess observing the game being played in a park. He might quickly discern the obvious rules such as bishops move diagonally, rooks move horizontally and vertically, and queens do both. However if he sits at a table to try it for himself, he may find something that surprises him such as an opponent moving his king and a rook at the same time with the pieces moving through each other and the king moving more than one space. He might say, "Hey! You violated the rules of chess!" but the truth is simply that he didn't know a subtler rule, that of castling.

To Einstein and Spinoza, discovering a subtle rule of the universe is "catching God in the act" or "knowing the mind of God." It isn't meant to mean that literally they're catching a conscious creator-being creating or understanding the mind of a conscious being. To Einstein and Spinoza, God is not a conscious being -- to them, God is literally the universe; it isn't a creator-being and doesn't interact with people or inspire holy texts, but it is just as we see it: just the universe, a greater thing than we are. Einstein/Spinoza chose to call that "God." I just call it "the universe."

Now, it is my turn to ask you to go back through my posts and show me one where I said that the Genesis account of Creation was literal, or seven days, or Garden of Eden, or Job existed literally. The whole thing is a huge allegory. And the personage Job didn't even exist. The book was written as an allegory to teach about the role of Israel in the designs of God.

I didn't assert that you took it literally, but it's peculiar to me that you hesitate to call the stories themselves mythology. Even if it's allegorical the stories they depict to get the point across fulfill the definition of "myth." That's all I was saying by "Jewish mythology."

It is Jewish but not mythology. I am not too sure you know the difference between mythology as the Greek and Egyptian are concerned and allegories with the intent to teach a spiritual lesson, or morality.

Stories with the intent to teach a lesson do qualify as mythology as far as I understand.

Mythology - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Merriam-webster's first definition for "mythology" is "an allegorical narrative."

I'm not using the word "myth" to mean "false legend" or anything like that, if that's what you were suspecting.

The problem is not that I have chosen to ignore what they have proclaimed but that you have chosen, for some reason, to make sure non-Jewish readers understand that the Hebrew Bible is a book of mythologies. If this is not true, you have got to admit that you cannot distinguish between mythology and allegories.

As far as I've ever known allegories are mythology. That's fine, I'm fine with calling them allegories if we're just having a semantic fallout here.

The point I was making was not that Einstein considered it false legends or anything like that, but that he did not believe God was a creator-being and he did not believe that God would even inspire allegory as a non-conscious entity (the universe).

 

[Thief]

You are mistaken my friend. It is never too late for the truth.

And so will you, just like anyone else.

Maybe not....body,yes...spirit, no.

And the spirit will fail?...I hope not.


That won't happened because it is written that man was cast out of the Garden of Eden so that he would not eat from the tree of life and live forever. (Gen. 3:22) They were not ready for the tree of life.
It means there is no eternal life to anyone but to God only.
I think I said this.

I am ready to be proved wrong. If you succeed, I'll surely renounce my beliefs.


That's right, I don't believe in the devil as a real being but as a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man. Perhaps, that's precisely the reason why I feel myself protected by Reason. The book of Job? I have read it several times. What would you like to know?

Read it again.....you are not safe.

 

[Ben Masada]

Read it again.....you are not safe.

I know, but because your safety or salvation is on our shoulders. Don't forget John 4:22. "Salvation is from the Jews."


SALVATION IS FROM THE JEWS - John 4:22

In "Salvation is from the Jews," Jesus meant to that Samaritan woman much more than just what most of us understand that he meant himself. He didn't. He meant the whole nation, the Jewish People. How's that?

Please, don't get startled with the following statement, because I'll explain. If Israel existed before the Flood, this would not have happened. Do you know why the Flood happened? Because "The Lord saw how great was man's wickedness on earth, and how no desire that his heart conceived was ever anything but evil. (Gen. 5:5)

After the Flood, God promised Noah that "Never again He would doom the earth because of man. And His promise was as good as the well-functioning of the natural laws. (Gen. 8:21,22) What about if man became wicked again? How would God make good on His promise to Noah? Because Israel was on the make with the rise of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Israel would be the pledge to guarantee God's promise to Noah that the world would be saved of another similar catastrophe. I believe that's what Jesus had in mind when he told that Samaritan woman that salvation is from the Jews. That's what keeps the world going. Jeremiah must have read that text in Genesis and, in a vision he connected it with Israel. As long as the sun would be in the skies for a light by day and the moon and stars for lights by night, Israel would remain as a People before the Lord forever. It means that the salvation of Mankind would depend on the existence of Israel. (Jer. 1:35-37)

Ben

 

[Thief]

I know, but because your safety or salvation is on our shoulders. Don't forget John 4:22. "Salvation is from the Jews."


SALVATION IS FROM THE JEWS - John 4:22

In "Salvation is from the Jews," Jesus meant to that Samaritan woman much more than just what most of us understand that he meant himself. He didn't. He meant the whole nation, the Jewish People. How's that?

Please, don't get startled with the following statement, because I'll explain. If Israel existed before the Flood, this would not have happened. Do you know why the Flood happened? Because "The Lord saw how great was man's wickedness on earth, and how no desire that his heart conceived was ever anything but evil. (Gen. 5:5)

After the Flood, God promised Noah that "Never again He would doom the earth because of man. And His promise was as good as the well-functioning of the natural laws. (Gen. 8:21,22) What about if man became wicked again? How would God make good on His promise to Noah? Because Israel was on the make with the rise of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Israel would be the pledge to guarantee God's promise to Noah that the world would be saved of another similar catastrophe. I believe that's what Jesus had in mind when he told that Samaritan woman that salvation is from the Jews. That's what keeps the world going. Jeremiah must have read that text in Genesis and, in a vision he connected it with Israel. As long as the sun would be in the skies for a light by day and the moon and stars for lights by night, Israel would remain as a People before the Lord forever. It means that the salvation of Mankind would depend on the existence of Israel. (Jer. 1:35-37)

Ben

I suspect that was a little too much.

As a nation....no nation will rise to power ....altogether.

Salvation has nothing to do with politics.

That salvation came from scripture rooted in Jewish culture and belief?
Yeah.

Jesus was a Jew.

 

[Ben Masada]

I suspect that was a little too much.

As a nation....no nation will rise to power ....altogether.

Salvation has nothing to do with politics.

That salvation came from scripture rooted in Jewish culture and belief?
Yeah.

Jesus was a Jew.

You mean, you don't believe what Jesus said? Then, the issue is not political but theological. While salvation of Judah was in the death of Israel, (Psalm 78:67,69) salvation of Mankind is in the life of Judah, which will remain forever before the Lord as long as the sun will be in the sky everyday for light, and the moon and stars will be for lights during the night. (Jer. 31:35-37)

 

[Thief]

You mean, you don't believe what Jesus said? Then, the issue is not political but theological. While salvation of Judah was in the death of Israel, (Psalm 78:67,69) salvation of Mankind is in the life of Judah, which will remain forever before the Lord as long as the sun will be in the sky everyday for light, and the moon and stars will be for lights during the night. (Jer. 31:35-37)

On the contrary....
It was His upbringing and life....as a Jew...that brought Him to renown.

It was prophecy and scripture that brought Him to His ministry.

His parables are the wisdom we need.

And there is something going on with the quote buttons.
Some of your words and mine are crossing over.....

 

[Ben Masada]

On the contrary....
It was His upbringing and life....as a Jew...that brought Him to renown.

It was prophecy and scripture that brought Him to His ministry.

His parables are the wisdom we need.

And there is something going on with the quote buttons.
Some of your words and mine are crossing over.....

Any reference to Jesus in the Hebrew Scriptures is based on assumptions as a result of pre-conceived Christian notions. So, stop the cop-out and cease rewriting the writings of the Prophets. The Tanakh was written about Israel and not about Jesus.

 

[Thief]

Any reference to Jesus in the Hebrew Scriptures is based on assumptions as a result of pre-conceived Christian notions. So, stop the cop-out and cease rewriting the writings of the Prophets. The Tanakh was written about Israel and not about Jesus.

I haven't written any scripture....
and I don't follow the Carpenter because He was Jewish.

But to say that salvation is of the Jews...coming from a quote of Jesus....
as you noted....

Then salvation is of the Jews.....because of Jesus.

 

[Ben Masada]

I haven't written any scripture....
and I don't follow the Carpenter because He was Jewish.

But to say that salvation is of the Jews...coming from a quote of Jesus....
as you noted....

Then salvation is of the Jews.....because of Jesus.

Throughout that talk with the Samaritan woman, Jesus referred to the Jews in the collective "we." That was a dialogue between two people, the Samaritan woman who represented the Gentiles, and Jesus who represented the Jewish People. He said that Gentiles do not know whom they worship, while "we" the Jews know Whom we woship. It meant in the mind of Jesus that Gentiles worship a god that is no god. And "we" worship the Almighty God Creator of universe. For this reason, salvation could not be of the the Gentiles but of the Jews. Perhaps for the Gentiles but from the Jews. That was nowhere a reference to himself. (John 4:21-24)

 

[Thief]

Throughout that talk with the Samaritan woman, Jesus referred to the Jews in the collective "we." That was a dialogue between two people, the Samaritan woman who represented the Gentiles, and Jesus who represented the Jewish People. He said that Gentiles do not know whom they worship, while "we" the Jews know Whom we woship. It meant in the mind of Jesus that Gentiles worship a god that is no god. And "we" worship the Almighty God Creator of universe. For this reason, salvation could not be of the the Gentiles but of the Jews. Perhaps for the Gentiles but from the Jews. That was nowhere a reference to himself. (John 4:21-24)

And yet you are focused on the pivot point of conversation.....
that makes all the difference.

He is of the Jews....and was no other Jew like Him.

 

[Ben Masada]

And yet you are focused on the pivot point of conversation.....
that makes all the difference.

He is of the Jews....and was no other Jew like Him.

Why, because he made miracles? None in the History of Israel has made more miracles than Prophet Elisha. Nevertheless, we have not made of him a Greek demigod. Why, because he was crucified? Read Josephus. The Romans crucified thousands of Jews only in the First Century, and in the very same manner they dealt with Jesus. Nu! Are you going to tell me in what sense there was no other Jew like Jesus? Go ahead, I am all ears. That's your chance to convert a Jew.

 

[Thief]

Why, because he made miracles? None in the History of Israel has made more miracles than Prophet Elisha. Nevertheless, we have not made of him a Greek demigod. Why, because he was crucified? Read Josephus. The Romans crucified thousands of Jews only in the First Century, and in the very same manner they dealt with Jesus. Nu! Are you going to tell me in what sense there was no other Jew like Jesus? Go ahead, I am all ears. That's your chance to convert a Jew.

I'm not interested in your conversion.

Have you read His parables?

 

[Ben Masada]

I'm not interested in your conversion.

Have you read His parables?

You are not interested in the conversion of a Jew! There is nothing in this world a Christian is more interested in if not in the conversion of a Jew. And with regard to Jesus' parables, yes, I have read all of them, even more than several times. Do you remember the parable about the Rich Man and Lazarus? I suppose you do. In case you need help it can be found in Luke 16:20-31. Do you know why he spoke that parable? Just in case you have forgotten, his reason was to let you know about the permanence of God's Law and its role in the salvation of man. The lesson is in the verses 29-31. The rich man in Hell would ask father Abraham to send one even from the dead to warn his family to repent and obey. Jesus, through the mouth of Abraham said: No, they have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them. If they don't hear them, even if one rises from the dead, they won't be persuaded to listen to Moses. This parable has proved true today. How? You believe that Jesus rose from the dead, don't you? Yes, you do. But you refuse to listen to Moses. You prefer to listen to Paul. Jesus was right. This parable of his has been fulfilled.

 

[Thief]

You are not interested in the conversion of a Jew! There is nothing in this world a Christian is more interested in if not in the conversion of a Jew. And with regard to Jesus' parables, yes, I have read all of them, even more than several times. Do you remember the parable about the Rich Man and Lazarus? I suppose you do. In case you need help it can be found in Luke 16:20-31. Do you know why he spoke that parable? Just in case you have forgotten, his reason was to let you know about the permanence of God's Law and its role in the salvation of man. The lesson is in the verses 29-31. The rich man in Hell would ask father Abraham to send one even from the dead to warn his family to repent and obey. Jesus, through the mouth of Abraham said: No, they have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them. If they don't hear them, even if one rises from the dead, they won't be persuaded to listen to Moses. This parable has proved true today. How? You believe that Jesus rose from the dead, don't you? Yes, you do. But you refuse to listen to Moses. You prefer to listen to Paul. Jesus was right. This parable of his has been fulfilled.

And you are wrong and presumptuous.

I actually don't follow much of Paul's writings.

I believe the parables are sufficient.

I would like to think of Moses...as someone in heaven.

Was it not God Himself, that stopped Moses from entering the promised land?
A fail point on his part?

Jesus was crucified....a fail point on His part?

Muhammad was poisoned....God allowed it?

No one to meet in the afterlife?...no one to follow?

 

[Ben Masada]

And you are wrong and presumptuous.

What does mean, wrong and presumptious? Prove where I am wrong and presumptuous. I document my assertions in the Scriptures, even in the NT. Why don't you read them? Name calling will take us nowhere. Did you read Luke 16:20-31? Probably not. Otherwise, you would not conclude that I am wrong and presumptuous. If there is another explanation for that parable of Jesus, pour it on me. I am all ears.

I actually don't follow much of Paul's writings.

What to you mean, aren't you a Christian? If you reject Paul's writings, you might as well reject the whole of the NT.

I believe the parables are sufficient.

Great! Why don't you discuss them with me. I believe we could learn a thing or two from each other. If indeed the parables are sufficient, are you ready to listen to Moses? Moses here in this parable of Jesus means God's Law, which Jesus came to confirm down to the letter. (Mat. 5:17-19)

I would like to think of Moses...as someone in heaven.

Too bad because he is dead, and you cannot use the only Scriptures that Jesus considered the Word of God to prove that there is one. Heaven is what we make for us and for each other here in this world.

Was it not God Himself, that stopped Moses from entering the promised land? A fail point on his part?

What does it have to do with discussing the parables of Jesus?

Jesus was crucified....a fail point on His part?

No, a fail point on some of the stupid guys who followed him into Jerusalem proclaiming that he was king of the Jews. That's the reason why he was crucified. Pilate was quite clear about that plate he nailed on the top of his cross. That he was crucified for being proclaimed king of the Jews. Today, when I hear Christian preachers putting up the same claim, what comes to my mind is that those same stupid guys are back. They were the ones who failed. Jesus never proclaimed himself king of the Jews.

Muhammad was poisoned....God allowed it?

God never had anything to do with the way Muhammad died. We have freewill; and the one who poisoned him to death simply chose to use his freewill to do so.

No one to meet in the afterlife?...no one to follow?

Can you prove the afterlife? Is there any actual evidence of it? Isn't it much wiser to live this life fully and enjoy it? God accepts what is done here on earth and not in the afterlife.(Eccl. 9:7)

 

[JustWondering]

There are two psalms for Atheists in the Bible, which the Psalmist, ironically, wrote twice, ipsisssima verba. By mistake or on purpose, I'll let you figure. They are Psalms 14 and 53. But I believe the Psalmist's message is for Atheists who have no option to God's non-existence.

Psalm 14
1 The fool says in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
there is no one who does good.

2 The LORD looks down from heaven
on all mankind
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God.
3 All have turned away, all have become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.
4 Do all these evildoers know nothing?
They devour my people as though eating bread;
they never call on the LORD.
5 But there they are, overwhelmed with dread,
for God is present in the company of the righteous.
6 You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor,
but the LORD is their refuge. 7 Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion!
When the LORD restores his people,
let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad!

Whats to be taken from this verse exactly? This verse seems to simply be hate speech against unbelievers.

 

[Thief]

What does mean, wrong and presumptious? Prove where I am wrong and presumptuous. I document my assertions in the Scriptures, even in the NT. Why don't you read them? Name calling will take us nowhere. Did you read Luke 16:20-31? Probably not. Otherwise, you would not conclude that I am wrong and presumptuous. If there is another explanation for that parable of Jesus, pour it on me. I am all ears.



What to you mean, aren't you a Christian? If you reject Paul's writings, you might as well reject the whole of the NT.



Great! Why don't you discuss them with me. I believe we could learn a thing or two from each other. If indeed the parables are sufficient, are you ready to listen to Moses? Moses here in this parable of Jesus means God's Law, which Jesus came to confirm down to the letter. (Mat. 5:17-19)



Too bad because he is dead, and you cannot use the only Scriptures that Jesus considered the Word of God to prove that there is one. Heaven is what we make for us and for each other here in this world.



What does it have to do with discussing the parables of Jesus?



No, a fail point on some of the stupid guys who followed him into Jerusalem proclaiming that he was king of the Jews. That's the reason why he was crucified. Pilate was quite clear about that plate he nailed on the top of his cross. That he was crucified for being proclaimed king of the Jews. Today, when I hear Christian preachers putting up the same claim, what comes to my mind is that those same stupid guys are back. They were the ones who failed. Jesus never proclaimed himself king of the Jews.



God never had anything to do with the way Muhammad died. We have freewill; and the one who poisoned him to death simply chose to use his freewill to do so.



Can you prove the afterlife? Is there any actual evidence of it? Isn't it much wiser to live this life fully and enjoy it? God accepts what is done here on earth and not in the afterlife.(Eccl. 9:7)

Your previous post was aimed at me with personal critique...
and you complain when the same is done to you?.....hypocrisy?

And all prophets have some fail point.
Who are you chasing after?...besides me?

And without an afterlife...
wouldn't God be denying you the life He has?

Does He want you around?...or not.

 

[Ben Masada]

Psalm 14
1 The fool says in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
there is no one who does good.

2 The LORD looks down from heaven
on all mankind
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God.
3 All have turned away, all have become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.
4 Do all these evildoers know nothing?
They devour my people as though eating bread;
they never call on the LORD.
5 But there they are, overwhelmed with dread,
for God is present in the company of the righteous.
6 You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor,
but the LORD is their refuge. 7 Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion!
When the LORD restores his people,
let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad!

Whats to be taken from this verse exactly? This verse seems to simply be hate speech against unbelievers.

Well, Atheists don't seek God, do they? The message is against those who don't seek God and oppress the poor, isn't it?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I listen and read every word you say. Positive ad hominem! I didn't know ad hominem could be positive.

Yes - it's an ad hominem any time you base your argument about a claim on the merits of the person making the claim instead of the merits of the claim itself. Sometimes this is negative ("he's a liar, so it can't be true!") sometimes it's positive ("he's an honest man, so what he says must be right!")

Regarding appealing to authorities, every one does, somehow or another.

Ha! You try to excuse one fallacy with another!

I never said the Einstein believed in the Jewish religion of literalist Jews who promote an anthropomorphic form of God. I said that deep down Einstein was somehow aware of a supernatural All-Powerful Being behind the works of nature, according to Psalm 19:1. And no one can prove otherwise.

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
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