Fighting Two Fronts

[Ben Masada]

As a strictly personal right, sure it is. It doesn't make much of a difference externally, nor is it supposed to.

I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean. Generally speaking, I don't find belief in God important.

Your first change of mind. Are you afraid to be cornered?

The only true exception happens when people use their belief in God as justification for otherwise unacceptable behavior.

That's the second change of mind. Are you suspecting of where we are heading to?

I wasn't particularly hoping for anything, except for clarification. In that respect I am still disappointed. I really don't know what you mean.

And you never will if you keep changing your mind.

Not religions proper, IMO. Some forms of degeneration that claim to be religion, instead.

That's the third change of mind. Are you that hard to make up your mind?

 

[LuisDantas]

Your first change of mind. Are you afraid to be cornered?

Cut the stuff, Ben. There is no change of mind. Are you actually surprised that an atheist such as me doesn't particularly value belief in God? You were not paying attention.

That's the second change of mind. Are you suspecting of where we are heading to?

Surprise me. And while you are at it, re-read previous posts. You may understand how the supposed "changes of mind" are simply points that you disregard because they don't fit your expectations.

And you never will if you keep changing your mind.

Oh noes!

That's the third change of mind. Are you that hard to make up your mind?

No. I have a hard time making you understand things, though. But that is ok. I don't have a lot invested in that goal.

 

[kylixguru]

The truth is that no one will ever return. Remember Genesis 3:22.

I am aware of that passage. You should also know that the way to that tree is reopened by Christ the Lord when He comes in the advent of the Father upon the earth in the Latter-days.

Rev 2:7 says:

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
​

Rev 22:13-14 says:

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
​

Return for what, to die over and over again?

I suppose you could see the glass as half empty. I prefer to see it as half full. I would return to LIVE over and over again. And, as my eternal spirit, build up my treasures in heaven in the form of my eternal inheritance that I can use and enjoy and increase or decrease as I please. That's the point of Job. He shows us that we can endure having everything taken from us in death and that even so when we return in the flesh to live again that all of what we had before shall be returned to us for our continued blessing.

Because forever none will live. Tha's the Word of God.

Where?

 

[Ben Masada]

Cut the stuff, Ben. There is no change of mind. Are you actually surprised that an atheist such as me doesn't particularly value belief in God? You were not paying attention.

I was. It is just that I was letting you follow the bait like a doomed fish. Atheists don't fool me that easy.

Surprise me. And while you are at it, re-read previous posts. You may understand how the supposed "changes of mind" are simply points that you disregard because they don't fit your expectations.

Dantas discovered America! He foud out that I discard points that don't fit my expectations. Hey Dantas, wake up! I am Jewish with the mission to reveal God's glory in the sight of the nations, according to Ezekiel 20:41. Do you think you have something that will probably meet my Theological expectations? You can't even explain why you cannot believe God exists.

No. I have a hard time making you understand things, though. But that is ok. I don't have a lot invested in that goal.

In that case, there must be a special reason why you hang around Theist forums. Hunger for the truth? Isaiah 46:5 could help you if you are not too proud, or the owner of too big an EGO.

 

[LuisDantas]

These are religious forums, Ben. Not theistic ones. And even if they were, you are even more deluded then I assumed if you think I need to prove something before addressing theists.

Stop wasting my time, will'ya?

 

[Ben Masada]

I am aware of that passage. You should also know that the way to that tree is reopened by Christ the Lord when He comes in the advent of the Father upon the earth in the Latter-days.

Pauline rhetoric which holds no water. This is among the 80 percent of the NT that I discard as anti-Biblical.

Rev 2:7 says: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Rev 22:13-14 says:

This is for those who have churches. I belong in the Faith of Jesus which was Judaism. We use synagogues and not churches.

13 - I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

That's the Almighty, God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus died and will never return.

14 - Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Who could they be if not the Jewish People who live by the observance of God's commandments? Don't Christians live by faith? Didn't Paul say that the Law of commandments was abolished on the cross? (Ephe. 2:15) If you do believe Revelation 22:14, what are you doing on the other side of the fence?

I suppose you could see the glass as half empty. I prefer to see it as half full. I would return to LIVE over and over again. And, as my eternal spirit, build up my treasures in heaven in the form of my eternal inheritance that I can use and enjoy and increase or decrease as I please. That's the point of Job. He shows us that we can endure having everything taken from us in death and that even so when we return in the flesh to live again that all of what we had before shall be returned to us for our continued blessing.

It means you don't believe God's Word as expressed in Genesis 3:22. You prefer to believe in a book written by several Hellenist authors.

Where?

Genesis 3:22. I thought you had told me above that you were aware of that text. What's the matter, you don't believe the only Scriptures Jesus considered the Word of God?

 

[Ben Masada]

These are religious forums, Ben. Not theistic ones. And even if they were, you are even more deluded then I assumed if you think I need to prove something before addressing theists.

Stop wasting my time, will'ya?

Two things only: First, I thought you were not religious. After all, my views of Atheism as a religion are indeed confirmed. Thank you. The second is with regards to your time. You can stop wasting it by simply not picking up my posts for a reply.

 

[LuisDantas]

Two things only: First, I thought you were not religious. After all, my views of Atheism as a religion are indeed confirmed. Thank you. The second is with regards to your time. You can stop wasting it by simply not picking up my posts for a reply.

You just keeping commiting mistakes due to your prejudices.

I am religious, and I am an atheist. The two characteristics are very much independent from each other. You would know that for a long time - as do many other forum users - if you cared to pay attention. I announce that in every post I make, after all.

Atheism, rather obviously, isn't a religion. In fact, you are insulting the word by claiming that a simple lack of a minor belief a religion makes. There is a well-sized handful of religions compatible with atheism in various degrees, of course, but that no more makes atheism a religion than wearing clothes is a religion.

As for not wasting my time, hey, I am not one to simply let lies and prejudice go on unchallenged, so you will have to endure.

 

[kylixguru]

Pauline rhetoric which holds no water. This is among the 80 percent of the NT that I discard as anti-Biblical.

My reading shows that it meshes very intriquitly and beautifully.
What it opposes is your errant understanding of it.

This is for those who have churches. I belong in the Faith of Jesus which was Judaism. We use synagogues and not churches.

So do they get to partake of the fruit of the tree of life or don't they?

That's the Almighty, God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus died and will never return.

The eternal spirit of Jesus Christ is alive and well. When He returns "to dust" it shall be as the Almighty God and Eternal Father of the new Creation that is just around the corner. It will be Shiloh from the Birthright Tribe of Joseph.

Who could they be if not the Jewish People who live by the observance of God's commandments?

It shall be the advent of the Father as the BRANCH from the root of Jesse and those who recognize Him and join Him in His Kingdom. It is the individual represented by the 2nd goat in the Day of Atonement ritual who escapes alive into the wilderness and who obtains the victory over the adversary. Thus, by way of His success and victory, all those who put their faith and trust in Him over all generations of the Creation that is in its final stages shall have all of their sins remitted and they will stand with Him in the beginning of the new Creation and partake of the tree (lineage) of life, which is His tree. They will be the fathers and mothers of the great Millennial Golden Age and be the parents of an entire new Creation.

Don't Christians live by faith? Didn't Paul say that the Law of commandments was abolished on the cross? (Ephe. 2:15) If you do believe Revelation 22:14, what are you doing on the other side of the fence?

I don't read Paul the way you do.

It means you don't believe God's Word as expressed in Genesis 3:22. You prefer to believe in a book written by several Hellenist authors.

I don't see any conflict.

Genesis 3:22. I thought you had told me above that you were aware of that text. What's the matter, you don't believe the only Scriptures Jesus considered the Word of God?

I see a seamless garment of truth woven througout the Torah, Bible, Quran, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, Unpublished Revelations of Joseph Smith, and others... If you are unable to reconcile the Words of God's dealings with the Ishmaelites, Ephraimites, Josephites, Benjaminites, etc. then it is you who is going to miss the feast.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Now, when you say that one simply acknowledges that he does not know, does it mean you don't know that God exists?

No, that's not what I mean. We were specifically talking about whether the universe is "eternal", remember? Failing to say "yes, I believe the universe is eternal" is not the same thing as saying "no, I do not believe the universe is eternal." There's the other option: "I have no belief either way on the question."

It could be that He does? Have I read you right? If it's so, that's new to me. I have debated many Atheists. They usually know just one thing: That God does not exist, which dooms the debate to become just a wasting of time.

As I said, I was talking about the specific question of whether the universe is eternal.

However, as far as belief in gods, yes: most atheists do not say that they know that God does not exist. In fact, I've never met one who does. All that is necessary to be an atheist is to not accept any claim that any god exists. Many atheists actively reject certain god-claims, or even the concept of "god", but it's not strictly necessary to do this to be an atheist. And no atheists I know personally say that they know that there are no gods.

Have you heard of the Dawkins Scale? It goes from 1 (100% certain belief that God exists) to 7 (100% certain belief that God does not exist). Even Richard Dawkins rates himself a six-point-something... IOW, he leaves room for the possibility that he may be wrong and that God may actually exist.

So again: you might find that you'd get better results with people if you weren't so quick to prejudge them.

 

[Ben Masada]

You just keeping commiting mistakes due to your prejudices.

Prejudices is something I don't have. Judaism is open to all. Nine from among the Gentiles have converted to Judaism as a result of my work.

I am religious, and I am an atheist. The two characteristics are very much independent from each other. You would know that for a long time - as do many other forum users - if you cared to pay attention. I announce that in every post I make, after all.

Well, I admit you are right about my lack of attention. I had never heard of such a thing. That a religious person could be an atheist.

Atheism, rather obviously, isn't a religion. In fact, you are insulting the word by claiming that a simple lack of a minor belief a religion makes. There is a well-sized handful of religions compatible with atheism in various degrees, of course, but that no more makes atheism a religion than wearing clothes is a religion.

Many atheists have claimed that the universe is eternal. IMO, only God is eternal. If those atheists are right, the universe is god and Atheism is obviously a religion.

As for not wasting my time, hey, I am not one to simply let lies and prejudice go on unchallenged, so you will have to endure.

If what I say are lies, obviously you are calling me a liar. But I forgive you this ad hominem because you do not understand about the God I am talking about. Your conception of god is too anthropomorphic.

 

[Ben Masada]

No, that's not what I mean. We were specifically talking about whether the universe is "eternal", remember? Failing to say "yes, I believe the universe is eternal" is not the same thing as saying "no, I do not believe the universe is eternal." There's the other option: "I have no belief either way on the question."


As I said, I was talking about the specific question of whether the universe is eternal.

However, as far as belief in gods, yes: most atheists do not say that they know that God does not exist. In fact, I've never met one who does. All that is necessary to be an atheist is to not accept any claim that any god exists. Many atheists actively reject certain god-claims, or even the concept of "god", but it's not strictly necessary to do this to be an atheist. And no atheists I know personally say that they know that there are no gods.

Have you heard of the Dawkins Scale? It goes from 1 (100% certain belief that God exists) to 7 (100% certain belief that God does not exist). Even Richard Dawkins rates himself a six-point-something... IOW, he leaves room for the possibility that he may be wrong and that God may actually exist.

So again: you might find that you'd get better results with people if you weren't so quick to prejudge them.

That's great! I guess I can obviously say that I am an Atheist who believes that God exists. Did I understand you right?

 

[astarath]

Pick your battles man, don't be frontin'

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That's great! I guess I can obviously say that I am an Atheist who believes that God exists. Did I understand you right?

Apparently not.

An atheist is someone who has no belief that any gods exist. If you believe that God exists, then you don't fall into this category.

 

[Ben Masada]

My reading shows that it meshes very intriquitly and beautifully. What it opposes is your errant understanding of it.

Listen my friend, the Tanakh was written by the Jews. All we need now is for Gentiles to teach Judaism to the Jews.

So do they get to partake of the fruit of the tree of life or don't they?

Nop! Genesis 3:22 is clear enough that God cast out Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden so that they would eat from the tree of life and live forever. Your ideas are too mythological.

The eternal spirit of Jesus Christ is alive and well. When He returns "to dust" it shall be as the Almighty God and Eternal Father of the new Creation that is just around the corner. It will be Shiloh from the Birthright Tribe of Joseph.

The prophesy of Shiloh already had its fufilment, and it had nothing to do with Gentiles.

It shall be the advent of the Father as the BRANCH from the root of Jesse and those who recognize Him and join Him in His Kingdom. It is the individual represented by the 2nd goat in the Day of Atonement ritual who escapes alive into the wilderness and who obtains the victory over the adversary. Thus, by way of His success and victory, all those who put their faith and trust in Him over all generations of the Creation that is in its final stages shall have all of their sins remitted and they will stand with Him in the beginning of the new Creation and partake of the tree (lineage) of life, which is His tree. They will be the fathers and mothers of the great Millennial Golden Age and be the parents of an entire new Creation.

The scapegoat was Israel, the Ten Tribes, who was sent to the East to Assyria, as his redemptive death for the "many" of Judah, according to Isaiah 53:11,12.

I don't read Paul the way you do.

Obviously not, as I see that you promote his policy of Replacement Theology.

I don't see any conflict.

Of course not! I am Jewish and you are a Christian; probably a Mormon.

I see a seamless garment of truth woven througout the Torah, Bible, Quran, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, Unpublished Revelations of Joseph Smith, and others... If you are unable to reconcile the Words of God's dealings with the Ishmaelites, Ephraimites, Josephites, Benjaminites, etc. then it is you who is going to miss the feast.

Once, Jesus declared in a prayer that the Truth is the Word of God. (John 17:17) He probably had Psalm 147:19,20 in mind, where we read that the Word of God was given to Israel only and to no other people on eath. It means that the Truth can't be found anywhere else. Then, if you read Psalm 119:105, the Word of God (the Truth)
is light in the path of man. And last but not least, Jesus, in his sermon of the mount to a crowd of Jews said loud and clear: "You are the light of the world." (Mat. 5:14) Now, I wonder why you should fight against the light. Is it a facsimile to the Essene doctrine of the war between the children of darkness against the children of light?

 

[kylixguru]

Listen my friend, the Tanakh was written by the Jews. All we need now is for Gentiles to teach Judaism to the Jews.

I beg your pardon but all the 12 tribes have had significant contributions to the sacred writings as well as significant roles to play in everything coming back together again.

Nop! Genesis 3:22 is clear enough that God cast out Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden so that they would eat from the tree of life and live forever. Your ideas are too mythological.

Mythological? Huh?

Seems you mistyped as at that point they were to be barred from it. But, they were not to be barred from it forever. Does Judaism truly have no hope of redemption back into paradise? You call this offering being a light to the world? We offer you eternal death... Wow, gosh, how inspiring!!! NOT!

The prophesy of Shiloh already had its fufilment, and it had nothing to do with Gentiles.

What you claim fulfilled it was a joke. There was no associated gathering of the people together again. If something is to fulfill a prophecy it has to fulfill all aspects of the prophecy. Also, what's THE scepter if it becomes divided? The scepter was never prophesied to be divided.

Is all that has to happen is a person has the royal bloodline of Jesse. There is no requirement to be of the tribe of Judah. Therefore, Judah as a tribe does NOT keep the scepter over the whole House of Israel. It goes entirely to Shiloh, the Birthright to whom it rightly belongs.

The scapegoat was Israel, the Ten Tribes, who was sent to the East to Assyria, as his redemptive death for the "many" of Judah, according to Isaiah 53:11,12.

The scapegoat is who obtains victory over the serpent and LIVES. And, yes, you are correct, it is performed by the Birthright. It wasn't until after your ordinances were corrupted by the Edomite incursions into your faith that they decided they should start running that goat backwards over a cliff. I can see why your doctrine is polluted. Your ordinances have been polluted for many centuries. You have some serious homework and rethinking to do.

Obviously not, as I see that you promote his policy of Replacement Theology.

I don't need anything Paul ever said to promote what I promote.

Of course not! I am Jewish and you are a Christian; probably a Mormon.

There isn't an orthodox religion on the face of this earth that would want me to be a part of them. They've all been hijacked by men.

Once, Jesus declared in a prayer that the Truth is the Word of God. (John 17:17) He probably had Psalm 147:19,20 in mind, where we read that the Word of God was given to Israel only and to no other people on eath. It means that the Truth can't be found anywhere else. Then, if you read Psalm 119:105, the Word of God (the Truth)
is light in the path of man. And last but not least, Jesus, in his sermon of the mount to a crowd of Jews said loud and clear: "You are the light of the world." (Mat. 5:14) Now, I wonder why you should fight against the light. Is it a facsimile to the Essene doctrine of the war between the children of darkness against the children of light?

You think you can put a gague on God's mouth to only work with the Jews?

You can't do this without at the same time disrespecting your uncle Ishmael and your brothers, including your birthright brother, to be so closed-minded and dogmatic.

 

[Ben Masada]

Apparently not.

An atheist is someone who has no belief that any gods exist. If you believe that God exists, then you don't fall into this category.

Well, you have said above that "it is not necessary to reject the concept of God," since some Atheists leave a rather large margin for the possibility that God does exist. Now, if I place myself within that margin of possibility that God does exist, I still can't call myself an Atheist? Why have you changed your mind? Too confusing.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well, you have said above that "it is not necessary to reject the concept of God," since some Atheists leave a rather large margin for the possibility that God does exist. Now, if I place myself within that margin of possibility that God does exist, I still can't call myself an Atheist? Why have you changed your mind? Too confusing.

It's not confusing... or at least, it shouldn't be. It all comes down to one simple question: do you believe that any god exists?

- if the answer is yes, then you're a theist.
- if the answer is no, then you're an atheist.

There are no other answers to the question, because you either have a belief or you don't.

Any questions about how likely God's existence is are separate to this central question.

 

[kylixguru]

It's not confusing... or at least, it shouldn't be. It all comes down to one simple question: do you believe that any god exists?

- if the answer is yes, then you're a theist.
- if the answer is no, then you're an atheist.

There are no other answers to the question, because you either have a belief or you don't.

Any questions about how likely God's existence is are separate to this central question.

The question of who and what God is can vary greatly from one person to another. Therefore, if I didn't call it God but described what I view God as, at least in terms of how God manifests here in the flesh, then you would agree such a thing exists because it can be tangibly verified. Thus, the choice you would be left with is whether or not you choose to venerate them as such.

Existence of can be argued objectively. If it can't, your belief is vain.

Veneration of is purely a choice and always shall be.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The question of who and what God is can vary greatly from one person to another. Therefore, if I didn't call it God but described what I view God as, at least in terms of how God manifests here in the flesh, then you would agree such a thing exists because it can be tangibly verified.

But if I don't consider it God, then I still don't believe in God.

As an example: some cultures consider the sun to be a god. I believe that the sun exists, but I don't believe that it's a god. Therefore, even though I believe in what some people consider a god, I'm still an atheist.

Thus, the choice you would be left with is whether or not you choose to venerate them as such.

Veneration is still a separate question.

I suppose you need to believe that a thing exists before you can venerate it, but if you believe in a god that you don't venerate, you're still a theist.

Existence of can be argued objectively. If it can't, your belief is vain.

Okay, but someone who's vainly a theist is still a theist, and someone who's vainly an atheist is still an atheist. Again, it all comes down to the simple question of whether you believe in any gods. That's it. All the stuff about how likely you consider gods to be or how well-founded your beliefs are is secondary. When telling the difference between a theist and an atheist, only that one question matters.