Final Authority

[Clear]

I can't take you seriously.
Dr. Ruckman read 6,000 books
before his doctorate and
the King James Holy Bible
150 time..

James2028,

Who are you talking to? We were speaking of textual authority and your last post had something to do with "bible canonization". You realize these are different issues, right? Dr. Ruckman and his racing habits have nothing to do with my question.

If you are addressing me, your post makes no sense since it has nothing to do with the simple question you are being asked.

I pointed out that your "scripture quote" does not exist in any Greek manuscript and is thus a corruption of the text. Are you implying that the king James bible is therefore corrupt? Yet you seem to be honoring it with some of your statements.

Clear

 

[James2028]

Did you read his book ?

Did you know him ?

The central critical issue
in academic theology
is final authority.

There are only three theories
of Sola Scriptura theology.


.

 

[Clear]

James2028


1) RELEVANCE IS IMPORTANT IN A DISCUSSION
What does the fact that you quote a corruption in the text have to do with ANYTHING in your last post?

James, If you do not have any relevant information to offer readers when they ask a single, specific question, then why should they read your posts? Readers WANT logic and they WANT rational thought associated with DATA. If you cannot offer this, then your posts will be irrelevant to their interests and irrelevant to their questions they post to you.



2) I ASKED IF YOU WERE TRYING TO SUPPORT KJV OR USING IT AS AN EXAMPLE OF A "CORRUPT BIBLE"
I simply asked why you repeated a quote that does not exist in the early New Testament text in the context of Sola Scriptura.

It is perfectly o.k. if you simply say you didn't know your quote did not exist in the source text, or if you say you did it in order to demonstrate an error in the KJV text or for some other reason. You simply have not explained why you offered us erroneous text.

You quoted KJV 2 Tim 3:16 : "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
I simply pointed out that NO greek New Testament manuscript says this. It is one of the well-known errors of KJV translation. I assumed you were either ignorant of this fact or displaying a known corruption of translation to show us an example of a "corrupted bible". However, you also talked highly of the KJV. So I didn't know why in the world you would offer an example of an error in translation to us when speaking of the biblical text.

Clear
τωνεφυσεω

 

[Desert Snake]

Its a translation, etc. Not sure where you are getting the 'holy' translation idea, never heard it.

 

[Desert Snake]

James2028


1) RELEVANCE IS IMPORTANT IN A DISCUSSION
What does the fact that you quote a corruption in the text have to do with ANYTHING in your last post?

James, If you do not have any relevant information to offer readers when they ask a single, specific question, then why should they read your posts? Readers WANT logic and they WANT rational thought associated with DATA. If you cannot offer this, then your posts will be irrelevant to their interests and irrelevant to their questions they post to you.



2) I ASKED IF YOU WERE TRYING TO SUPPORT KJV OR USING IT AS AN EXAMPLE OF A "CORRUPT BIBLE"
I simply asked why you repeated a quote that does not exist in the early New Testament text in the context of Sola Scriptura.

It is perfectly o.k. if you simply say you didn't know your quote did not exist in the source text, or if you say you did it in order to demonstrate an error in the KJV text or for some other reason. You simply have not explained why you offered us erroneous text.

You quoted KJV 2 Tim 3:16 : "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
I simply pointed out that NO greek New Testament manuscript says this. It is one of the well-known errors of KJV translation. I assumed you were either ignorant of this fact or displaying a known corruption of translation to show us an example of a "corrupted bible". However, you also talked highly of the KJV. So I didn't know why in the world you would offer an example of an error in translation to us when speaking of the biblical text.

Clear
τωνεφυσεω

Where is that verse from?

 

[Clear]

Desert snake asked : “ Where is that verse from?” (post #245)


Hi Desert snake. I assume you are referring to the example of textual corruption in the King James that I referred to?


1) THE ERROR IN KJV 2 TIM 3:16

James2028 quoted 2 Tim 3:16 from the KJV testament several times. “KJV All scripture is given by God”. Post #238 was the latest time he quoted it. Since it is a well-known corruption/mistranslation, I could not tell if he was offering an example of one of the “corrupt bibles” he described in post #238.

The Greek text of Timothy reads : “πασα γραφη θεοπνευστος και ωφελιμος προς διδασκαλιαν προ ελεγμον προς επανορθωσιν προς παιδεαν την εν δικαιοσυνη”
“Every God-inspired writing [is] useful for doctrine, for reproof, etc….”

The original Greek does not contain the words “given by God” but this represents an incorrect translation in the original 1611 King James which is changed in the New REVISED Standard Version to “ All scripture is inspired”. The ASV renders it : “Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable…”

OFTEN, a translator is making a “best guess”. This “best guess” depends not only on language skills, but on historical skills and the final product reflects the personality and characteristics of the person(s) creating the bible as it does the manuscripts they use.

For example, In 2 Tim 3:16, the English word “is” does not appear in the Greek, however, English requires a verb, so the translator must make his best guess to place a missing verb where he thinks it should go in the greek. Thus, one version will say “Every writing IS inspired of God...” and another will say “Every writing inspired of God IS…”. These versions do NOT mean the same thing.

For example, while the original KVJ appears to announce scriptures were complete, the Greek simply refers to the fact that all texts which are inspired of God are useful for various purposes.


2) REVELATION THROUGH THE SPIRIT OF GOD WAS THE BASIC RELIGIOUS AUTHORITY IN EARLY JUDEO-CHRISTIAN RELIGION.

The final authority in early authentic religion was not a text but instead was the principle of revelation which underlies the experiences and insights the early Christians wrote about and memorialized in early Christian texts, diaries, midrashes, songs, etc (many of which found their way into the early New Testament text).

The ancient Christians understood that it was by the spirit that they were better able to understand the scriptures themselves. Even during the earliest times when a congregation may have had a version of the bible (or perhaps only a letter or two), they still understood that it was the spirit that gave them more correct understanding of the text.

This principle of revelation as the source of insight and testimony and learning is reflected in many of the early Christian texts. For example, in the Coptic Christian psalm Book, the text reads

“... let us bless our Lord Jesus who has sent to us the Spirit of Truth. He came and separated us from the Error of the World. He brought us a mirror. We looked into it, and saw in it the Universe. When the Holy Spirit came, he revealed to us the way of truth and taught us ...” THE COPTIC PSALM-BOOK - Psalm 223 (allberry 9-11)

Ignatius (who was living at a time when the apostles still lived) taught the saints “Devote yourself to unceasing prayers; Ask for greater understanding than you have.” Ignatius to Polycarp 1:3

Speaking of the spirit, the apostolic Father, Bishop Ignatius tells the earliest Christian saints to ‘... treat gently whatever appears before you; but ask, in order that the unseen things may be revealed to you, that you may be lacking in nothing and abound in every spiritual gift.” Ignatius to Polycarp 2:2

Speaking of the spirit, in the 4th century New Testament (codex Sinaiticus), Hermas asked early Christians “Why are you debating with yourself and becoming perplexed, and troubling yourself? Do not attempt, as though you were intelligent, to understand things you cannot comprehend, but ask the Lord that you may receive the intelligence to understand them.” Hermas 79:6

Not only was revelation given to mankind the best “authority” regarding religious doctrines and personal understanding, but revelation from God to an individual was the best and firmest witness of the existence of God itself.

In any case Desert Snake, I hope your spiritual journey is wonderful in this life.


Clear
δρτζτζφυω

 

[James2028]

Its a translation, etc. Not sure where you are getting the 'holy' translation idea, never heard it.

Manuscript Evidence, Bible Canonization,
Bible Doctrine, Billions of Bibles,
Computational Linguistics

AV Pulications -
Dr. Gail Riplinger is a kind
intelligent woman.
This bookstore offers the world's
most comprehensive research
in Bible canonization
computational linguistics.

Bible Baptist Bookstore -
Dr. Peter Ruckman is rude
in speech but not in knowledge.
This bookstore contains the world's largest collection of KJV Bible apologetics.


.

 

[Clear]

Its a translation, etc. Not sure where you are getting the 'holy' translation idea, never heard it.

Hi @Desert Snake :

That was part of my point as well. These are very unusual theories without supporting data.
For example, James2028 offers a theory in post #238 that "There are two types of Bibles, Holy Bibles and Corrupt Bibles."

In such a theory, none of the modern bibles can possibly be "holy" since all of them have corruptions. What does it mean then to have a "holy" but "corrupt" translation, since all translations that we know of have errors? It is illogical and irrational at this point.

Another theory that falls flat is the theory in post #238 that "It is dishonest to refer to a book as scripture while believing that only the originals were infallible."

The silly notion that only originals reflect inspired thought is incredibly naive. Even with the various errors, the scriptures we have are incredible and wonderful representations of religious history and, despite errors, they represent sacred and holy history. While imperfect, they are still incredibly valuable.

Clear
δρειτζτζω

 

[James2028]

Inspiration given by inspiration of God
would be infallible. Inspiration from
thinking about God would not
be infallible.

Be sincere, have you read Dr. Riplinger's books or Dr. Rickman's books ?

 

[James2028]

IThe Original Only Theory
produces a 99.99% probability,
while the Purified Text Theory
produces a 100% probability.

Dr. Ruckman read 6,000 books
before his doctorate, read the
KJV Holy Bible 150 times
and wrote 50 books.

You must read his books
in order to know what's
in the books.

The Bible Baptist Bookstore
contains the world's largest
collections of KJV Bible apologetics.


,

 

[MikeDwight]

 

[James2028]

This is why most online forums threads
are worthless. Try reading the books
before you dance around like a clown.

 

[MikeDwight]

Ah well, my bad. What you want me to do, delete it? Just thinking of the silly question posed to the last knights on Malta, so hey you like Bibles? Sulemain!

Good luck with the silliest position I've ever thought of Baptists, imposing King James' Bible on the rest of Europe, is it? Is it a crusade of language imposition? If Presbyterians thought King James infallible and his works, well, that's impossible, seeing as he was against the Church, and we didn't want the new Book of Anglican Common Prayer, and English isn't the holy language.

 

[James2028]

Online tough guys are fake and ruin the thread. They are disrespectful and would be put in check in the real world.

 

[MikeDwight]

Do you check things and feel successful? I bet you can't afford the nails.

 

[James2028]

" the church " , you talk like the
Roman Catholics during the Inquisitions.

The church consists of all the believers.

Romans 12:5
5 So we, being many are one body
in Christ, and every one members
one of another.


.

 

[MikeDwight]

We don't live in a rational world for Dr. whoevers. I complimenting my work, on the clock, led to police charges, businesses, churches, internets, no one has a developed reasonable presumption and suspicion to monitor my postings like they did, family questions. Not a rational world.

Let me tell you what, how did you plan to accomplish that? Who's responsible for a split world? Orthodox geographic Churches founded by the apostles, like the Armenian Apostolic Church? Their Fault? Or did the Catholics "Break Apart", see, who's schismatic?

 

[James2028]

go harass someone else

 

[James2028]

" the church " , you talk like the
Roman Catholics during the Inquisitions.

The church consists of all the believers.

Romans 12:5
5 So we, being many are one body
in Christ, and every one members
one of another.

 

[Clear]

Hi James2028

I thought I would give it one more try.

I think the reason that your posts are not gaining traction and are not achieving the credibility you want them to have is that they do not have specific, firm data that is associated with rational thought and supporting logic. To simply offer an unusual theory but no data supporting your theory is not helpful. To say that you have "read books" supporting your theory but not offering data you have is not helpful. If you actually HAVE some sort of data, have thought logically about your theory and can explain it in a rational, understandable, manner to posters, I think you will have more success at achieving a satisfying conversation (or debate if that is what you want in this forum). If a discussion devolves into simply trading barbs and insults will not be helpful to anyone involved. Try offering posters data and rational, logical thought and see if that is helpful to your theory.

In any case, I hope your spiritual journey is good James2028.

Clear
δρεισιτωω