Flood Evidences — revised

[rational experiences]

So firstly there was no global flood, this is a geological fact, secondly when is it you're claiming this mythical flood occurred? Only the Barberton Greenstone Belt is the oldest and it's a bit more than millions of years older than a mythical biblical flood, try 3.6 Billion Years.

It's not a geological fact.

Flooding regards the seen flood atop of ground that fills up huge trenches as earths mass isn't flat.

We humans witness flooding. It's one of our humans taught earth topics.

Rain. Natural balances

Flooding means unnatural change.

Seen before. Warned about it before as you live. A human.

Seeing we live on earth as position biology. On earth our type human biology is only as adult present thinker states.

No theory allowed.

About you digging up dead things to talk about it.

Life is lived living human as human by human consciousness as any human egotist theist. Now. Present.

So you have to remind some egotists you proved apes as one lesser DNA conscious biology body doesn't think anything like us. Humans.

So your consciousness how you think does not exist before you do. Human.

Ignorant arrogant cult group just humans using bad human behaviour egotism.

Sex why a human lives to choose ...so let's talk about a subject.

Humans said flooding saved humans life on earth before.

Signs...ice melting.

Ice taught humans was DNA biologies stable life support.

Is pretty basic human advice.

Now if a human can build a boat and it floats. Congratulations you built that boat.

If a humans says a God told me to build a boat to save human and animal life. Straight away you would ask was that a vision you got given. Human theist. Human theist attacking your own brain. Human gaining para normal AB normal at your side advice.

Today we see alien ships.

Did they see boats in their past should be the question. It would first be a cloud cold image.

Burning gas of cloud seen on ground.

Reason lots of atomic orbitals destroyed. Huge orbital. images giants in clouds. Looks like a UFO cloud mass

Would wood Burnt. ....
Signal as swirls inside wood form an ark image? Sacrificed body too.

Phenomena what it is.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Every in-depth “scientific review” of the Flood that I’ve read, which is considerable, ties the Flood in with Young Earth Creation. So by debunking YEC, they claim to automatically debunk the Flood. That’s actually a disingenuous approach.
And also trying to explain the event as occurring by natural processes.
Well, it wasn’t by natural means, was it?

Then you have not read very much. Early geologists refuted both the Flood and YEC. Flood beliefs and YEC beliefs used to be tied together. Some very inconsistent Christians admitted that at leas the Earth was old, but there still was a magical flood. They, like you, could never justify those beliefs.

There’s all kinds of unexplainable evidence that supports the catastrophe. The OP presents some of them, and follow-up posts present more.

Have a good evening.

What "unexplainable evidence"? That you did not give any is highly suspicious. Are you talking about your misunderstanding of how fast erosion works? By the way, if you really really believe this then you should learn what scientific evidence is. You could be the first believer with scientific evidence for your beliefs.

 

[rational experiences]

If humans say the bible does not include my modern day dust mass nuclear burnt out mass daily.

So now images in clouds would ship image change.

From wood visions seeing sacrificed ground life human and animal images are seen in the clouds body. On top of tips of mountains were the old temples burnt.

Cooling was on top of mountains mountain mass by held pressure that began to disintegrate fall.

Now today you'd see new animal life images and metal ships.

Father said as the philosophers stone resource wasnt destroying as much earth mass ....they kept more mass of god earth than you now do.

Man's theist mind is always told the advice. Says in thesis I must hence cause less earth mass removal myself.

So Japan power plant was forced to shut down. Reality.

You do it yourself. Theory plus causes seen.

 

[KWED]

No, you misunderstand. There was no “high ground” as you put it. At least not very high. From the amount of water that we observe on the Earth now, there were probably no more higher elevations than 7500 ft. above the sea levels that existed then. (Just a guess, considering the volume of water that currently exists. Because if the Earth’s topography were completely leveled out — “smooth as a cue ball”, if you will — the waters we now have on Earth would cover the landmass to a depth of 2 1/2 miles
(And more water is constantly being discovered within the crust and mantle. That could have played a role, don’t know. I don’t need it, to support the model.)

But along with the formation of deeper “valleys”, there was an uplift of landmasses, both caused by the Flood as described in Psalms 104, and these mountains which obviously existed prior to the Flood due to their extreme weathering and erosion details, were just raised to higher elevations…which they did not have prior to the Flood.

So no, there’s no contradiction.

Ok. So you are claiming that a few thousand years ago, there was no land more than 7500 feet above current sea level, and that all this land was covered by a global flood.
You are also necessarily claiming that every bit of geological and archaeological evidence we have is wrong, and all our knowledge of earth sciences is fundamentally flawed. Simply because it contradicts Bronze Age mythology.

It is genuinely bewildering how anyone can present such nonsense with a straight face.

 

[KWED]

“Water....disappeared by magic”?

Do you, or do you not claim that the sudden appearance and disappearance of these massive quantities of water was caused by god, using his supernatural powers (ie. magic).

Nope. My previous response to you, post #957, answered this.

Oh dear. You posted 957 after my post, so how can it be a reply to that post?

But now you’ve revealed a belittling closed-minded attitude.

You mean that I am highly sceptical of your claims because they are contradicted by every bit of evidence available?

And for the record, no one here has ever “debunked” any of the evidences I posted. Presenting counter-arguments is not debunking.

Yes it is, if those "counter arguments" disprove your initial claims. Which they do. Repeatedly.

In fact, the arguments given amount to “arguments of incredulity”. Was it not a Divinely-inspired event? Trying to explain it by natural means, then, will always be inadequate.

So you admit that your "argument" relies on magic.

But we can observe, all over the Earth, it’s after effects…. the evidences it left behind. Discoveries from which geology and many other sciences can’t explain in depth. (Like most of the evidence in my OP and follow-up posts.)
But the Flood scenario perfectly explains, ie., “fits” them.

Just because the child doesn't understand how their iPad works, doesn't mean it is therefore magic.

 

[KWED]

Because I accept the Earth as divine. Prior to A&E’s rebellion, didn’t Jehovah tell them they could eat “from every tree of the Garden,” and that “all green vegetation” was to be their food?

You seem to be assuming all this as "fact". Yet all the evidence we have disproves the whole Adam and Eve, Garden of Eden narrative.
So basically you argument is " The stories of magic in the Bible are the best explanation, because the stories in the Bible are true".

No surface dwelling organisms did survive… Except those whom Jehovah protected in the Ark.

So how do you explain the diversity and distribution of species after the flood?

Such a Flood would certainly explain the Ice Age,

A sudden, global flood would not explain the Ice Age (which one are you referring to?).

and the accompanying quick extinction of many of the discovered lifeforms, within the Permafrost.

It seems that you don't understand what "permafrost" is. Amongst many other things.

 

[KWED]

Have you ever read how science claims the planet Earth was formed? Talk about assertions! Especially considering the Sun’s gavitational pull.

An hypothesis supported by working models and observations is not an "assertion". If you doubt the explanation, feel free to point out the errors. Major scientific awards await you.

As Newton worded it: gravity can explain how the planets maintain their orbits, but it doesn’t explain how they were put there!

1. An egregious misquote. He actually said "Gravity explains the motion of the planets, but it cannot explain who sets them in motion".
2. Question begging. Why must there be a "who"?
3. Do you really think astrophysics stopped in the early 18th century?

Right. The account says Jehovah caused it, but He couldn’t protect the occupants.

You previously complained that I had accused you of invoking magic.
Now you assert that magic was necessary.
You really are all over the place!

 

[Jose Fly]

Do you think the energy released by such a tremendous downpour along with the increased pressure heats the animals to the point that bacteria are killed off and the tissue becomes fixed due to chemical products in this warm gooey pond of a global ocean? I'm thinking here. Perhaps when all the extra water was ejaculated into space so that the flood would abate, it took with it some vital elements that are associated with normal decomposition? And voila, perfectly preserved specimens. Or at least the claim that they are. I saw some pictures of reasonably well preserved looking varmints, but I couldn't tell what they were. So not perfect.

I cannot imagine anything plausible that could be offered to support the claims I have seen, but I am an open-minded and optimistic skeptic. Maybe there is something plausible that has been missed. I'm not that optimistic though.

Well, I have to give you credit for at least trying!

Of course if the heat is sufficient to kill the bacteria, it's probably going to do some damage (i.e., cook) the tissues of the organisms as well, which eliminates "perfectly preserved" as a possibility.

But knowing HC's history with this topic, he can just say God fixed it all.

 

[Jose Fly]

And for the record, no one here has ever “debunked” any of the evidences I posted. Presenting counter-arguments is not debunking. In fact, the arguments given amount to “arguments of incredulity”. Was it not a Divinely-inspired event? Trying to explain it by natural means, then, will always be inadequate.

Wow.

So basically you're not only saying that no one has debunked your arguments, you've set it up so that it's impossible for anyone to do so at all, because no matter what you can always invoke "God did it".

Creationists sure are fascinating.

 

[Jose Fly]

It is genuinely bewildering how anyone can present such nonsense with a straight face.

IMO, they seem to be believers first and thinkers second (at best). They start with the belief, then later (if they get around to it) they might think about it.

But it always starts with a belief. In this case, they start by believing the flood happened because the Bible says so. Then some of them might think about various aspects of how it happened or how to defend the belief to non-believers, but most of them never really bother. They're content with "The Bible says it, I believe it, end of story".

And among those who do think about it, as you can see it's not really a thorough process. As long as they believe, that's usually good enough.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

[

Are you now asserting that there is someone other than animals and the Noah family in the ark? Who else are we talking about here?

Oh, “in” the Ark.
You said “instead of”….
QUOTE="Dan From Smithville, post: 7743814, member: 62192"]If God was protecting them instead of the ark, what is the point of the ark?[/QUOTE]

Now I see what you meant. Jehovah was protecting both; I mean, protecting one is the same as protecting the other.

“The purpose of the Ark”:
You mean the Ark with those ideal, workable 30:5:3 dimensions? Just had to throw that in.

Well, for that matter, Jehovah God could have just levitated them, couldn’t He have? Of course!

You remember the fall of Jericho? What did the Israelites have to do?

For the army commander Naaman have to do to get cured from his leprosy?

They had to demonstrate their faith by obeying.
The same with Noah.
The lesson to learn is that, obeying is the key (1 Samuel 15:22). We do our part by doing what God tells us, and Jehovah will do His.

Those flood waters were turbulent, of course the Ark & its occupants needed Jehovah’s protection!

As a follower of a Christian religion, surely you think God is powerful enough.

i don’t understand why in discussing the Genesis Flood, which was caused by God, people then ignore that fact and look at it solely through a naturalistic lens.

But the aftereffect evidence is plentiful…. and those festivals of the dead, celebrated by unrelated and diverse cultures - ancient, modern, and extinct - many of them at or around the “17th day of the 2nd month (Genesis 7:11)” on their respective calendars, just adds to that body.
(I never did continue on with that thread — my health kept me from it. I have more information on the ‘festivals’ subject to tie it together.)

We’re discussing a Divine event, the accurate details of which are only found in the Bible. (The other Flood legends do not depict the account accurately, because the details are embellished.) So I need to use the Bible to explain certain aspects of it.


I’ll be answering more of the questions in your post later. Gotta go.

Have a good day, cousin.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Wow.

So basically you're not only saying that no one has debunked your arguments, you've set it up so that it's impossible for anyone to do so at all, because no matter what you can always invoke "God did it".

Creationists sure are fascinating.

Is this not described as an event caused by God?

If so, then ‘God did do it’.

Tell me please, where did all that fresh water locked in the Permafrost come from, stretching throughout the Northern Hemisphere?
And, how did those estimated millions of megafauna get stuck, and many preserved, within it?

All we have, is evidence after the fact.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

It is genuinely bewildering how anyone can present such nonsense with a straight face.

What a pompous response. Just belittling, without providing alternate explanations of the OP evidence.

Got your attitude. Thanks for the revelation.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

They're content with "The Bible says it, I believe it, end of story".

Yes that’s important, but I also look for evidence that supports it. With regard to the Flood, there is.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Of course if the heat is sufficient to kill the bacteria, it's probably going to do some damage (i.e., cook) the tissues of the organisms as well, which eliminates "perfectly preserved" as a possibility.

@Dan From Smithville , yes please, both you and Jose explain this supposed “heat” to me, how does water falling from above and water rising from below, cause heat? When did it ever?

 

[Subduction Zone]

@Dan From Smithville , yes please, both you and Jose explain this supposed “heat” to me, how does water falling from above and water rising from below, cause heat? When did it ever?

Always. Or at least always since Newton. For falling water:

U = mgh

For "waters from the deeps". Well, it cant be ground water. That is very limited and is in the ground too . . . hmm, do you see the previous formula? That little letter "g" is what tends to keep it down there. So you are talking very deep water. And that is going to be very hot water.

I am rather amazed. The first one is ninth grade physics or earlier. Nice job disqualifying yourself from the argument.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Oh, “in” the Ark.
You said “instead of”….
QUOTE="Dan From Smithville, post: 7743814, member: 62192"]If God was protecting them instead of the ark, what is the point of the ark?

Now I see what you meant. Jehovah was protecting both; I mean, protecting one is the same as protecting the other.

“The purpose of the Ark”:
You mean the Ark with those ideal, workable 30:5:3 dimensions? Just had to throw that in.

Well, for that matter, Jehovah God could have just levitated them, couldn’t He have? Of course!

You remember the fall of Jericho? What did the Israelites have to do?

For the army commander Naaman have to do to get cured from his leprosy?

They had to demonstrate their faith by obeying.
The same with Noah.
The lesson to learn is that, obeying is the key (1 Samuel 15:22). We do our part by doing what God tells us, and Jehovah will do His.

Those flood waters were turbulent, of course the Ark & its occupants needed Jehovah’s protection!

As a follower of a Christian religion, surely you think God is powerful enough.

i don’t understand why in discussing the Genesis Flood, which was caused by God, people then ignore that fact and look at it solely through a naturalistic lens.

But the aftereffect evidence is plentiful…. and those festivals of the dead, celebrated by unrelated and diverse cultures - ancient, modern, and extinct - many of them at or around the “17th day of the 2nd month (Genesis 7:11)” on their respective calendars, just adds to that body.
(I never did continue on with that thread — my health kept me from it. I have more information on the ‘festivals’ subject to tie it together.)

We’re discussing a Divine event, the accurate details of which are only found in the Bible. (The other Flood legends do not depict the account accurately, because the details are embellished.) So I need to use the Bible to explain certain aspects of it.


I’ll be answering more of the questions in your post later. Gotta go.

Have a good day, cousin.

If God made the ark to protect Noah, his family and all those animals, direct protection from God would make the ark superfluous. God could do anything God wants to and could have removed Noah et. al on an entire chunk of the Earth and set them in space to ride out the flood well away from it.

The flood in Genesis is a story that you want read and viewed as the retelling of a literal event. As your personal belief, I have no problem with that. But you are not just keeping it as a personal belief. You are telling others that it is real and to deny it is to deny reality. You, nor has anyone else, ever demonstrated that a flood as described in the Bible ever occurred. Look at all the great lengths that literalists have had to go to in attempts to maintain that claim. Mountains of speculation have arisen with no basis in evidence and speculation that creates further questions that demand answers.

As a Christian, I am compelled to honesty by my own beliefs. If I were a literalist, I would claim that I believe Genesis as written, but recognize there is no evidence supporting that view nor anyway to dispel observations that mean a flood of global proportion (biblical flood) could not occur. That is the fact of things as they stand and have always stood.

Since I view it as allegory, there is no conflict between my faith and those facts.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Well, I have to give you credit for at least trying!

Of course if the heat is sufficient to kill the bacteria, it's probably going to do some damage (i.e., cook) the tissues of the organisms as well, which eliminates "perfectly preserved" as a possibility.

But knowing HC's history with this topic, he can just say God fixed it all.

I thought about the cooking issue and I am just going to declare that it is the process that fixed the tissue resulting in perfect preservation.

I think it was Larry Niven that proposed a means of perfect preservation whereby an object or being could be placed in an envelope of suspended time and emerge from that envelope in exactly the age and condition they were in upon entering. I have just a modicum of physics in my background. Just enough to sort of keep up with a physics conversation, so obviously, that qualifies me to come up with or accept radical, speculative or conjured mechanisms as valid. Surely?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Well, I have to give you credit for at least trying!

Of course if the heat is sufficient to kill the bacteria, it's probably going to do some damage (i.e., cook) the tissues of the organisms as well, which eliminates "perfectly preserved" as a possibility.

But knowing HC's history with this topic, he can just say God fixed it all.

It has occurred to me that "God did it"--implying the supernatural nature of these claimed phenomena--pretty much takes skeptics off the hook for questioning the events. By their very nature, supernatural events would not leave natural evidence, so there is absence of malice on the part of skeptics for noting this lack of evidence and calling these events into question. It is an honest response to claims without evidence and honesty that creationists should recognize given the philosophical compulsion for the optimization of such honesty that many creationists claim forms the basis of their beliefs.

In my personal faith, I see God as allowing things to play out naturally so that there is observable evidence and we can learn and grow as His people and not deify a static position. Among the questions I ask myself are "Why would he give us intelligence and senses to observe reality or draw our own conclusions if He did not want us to use that capacity to come up with explanations?". Another is "Why would God expect His people, advancing their knowledge and understanding of the natural world, to maintain ancient views of the world that have diminishing application?".

 

[Hockeycowboy]

If God made the ark to protect Noah, his family and all those animals, direct protection from God would make the ark superfluous. God could do anything God wants to and could have removed Noah et. al on an entire chunk of the Earth and set them in space to ride out the flood well away from it.

Didn’t I say that? I said “levitation”.

But then I went on to describe how Jehovah God required a display of faith. Following God’s instructions on building the Ark, was Noah’s display. (The Ark with those ideally workable ratios I might add. Which, in itself, is evidence of its authenticity.)

And then, in different ways you keep implying, ‘there’s no evidence’….

You, nor has anyone else, ever demonstrated that a flood as described in the Bible ever occurred.

no basis in evidence

But the OP provides it!

..speculation that creates further questions that demand answers.

The facts “demand answers.”
The Permafrost exists. And the animals within it, which global warming is revealing more and more. Why is the Permafrost there? How did that fresh water get there? And how did the animals get frozen & (some remains of them) preserved within it?

Or do you doubt these things?