Flood Evidences — revised

[Jose Fly]

Oh yeah, that’s because we have so much figured out in geology, right?

If not having absolutely everything figured out is problematic, how does that mesh with your spitballing ideas on the flood? For example, with your earlier post about gravity causing the ground to collapse once the "vast underground springs" emptied.....what caused the underground springs to empty?

The currently accepted hypothesis of how the Earth formed is laughable!

Why, because you say so? Are you an expert in planetary formation, such that we should all pay heed to your assertions?

 

[Jose Fly]

You gotta wonder, did he read that in some
insane creosite, or just make it up?

Notice how he has it figured out and no
geologist on earth is smart enough.

That's every internet creationist ever. Of course once you ask them how they came to be such experts in specific fields of science, the ducking, dodging, and evasion begins.

 

[1213]

...
The question is raised — and properly so: “How could a Global Flood cause such freezing temperatures?” Keep in mind, some of the water (not most...most were from the “vast springs” underneath the ground) came from above, from the atmosphere....the troposphere?...the mesosphere?...the stratosphere? The Bible doesn’t say, it is silent...

Bible tells there was heavy rain that lasted 40 days. That means it was cloudy. And it means the weather cooled. Also, the vast amount of water could have cooled. Also, because living things died, they didn’t warm the planet anymore.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Never did I claim the story of Noah's flood to be a myth. It is literal, and I hope you would read my post again, I see you have great ddifficuilty to do sn Fresh and Salt, I am of opinion that the waters of the earth were not as salty as today.
But then again, I am not a Chemistry major, and will not venture into this thinking without first learning more.
You then end with :"Not to mention ... and many marine mammals breath through nostrils.
Now let me get to your logic here to see if I understand what you say.
Marine animals that breath through nostrils?
Are you talking about something like the Manitees?
Do you think Noah would have had to load them on the ark for their survival?
Now show me here YHWH tells Noah to take marine animals on the Ark.
Gen 6:20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind,
Then tell me what do you think of the silly argument your atheist friends have on Noah having to load 7 pairs of sper whales on the ark.

Come on, lets see how well you can critisize real errors!

You're the one making claims about Noah loading animals who breathe through nostrils. Don't get ****ty at me that that group includes animals inconvenient to you story. Manatees, seals, otters, dolphins and whales all breath through nostrils. But I expect your answer will be another handwaved goal post shift.

The salt water issue is a huge one. That alone disproves the Flood myth in my opinion. "Well, I don't think the sea was as salty then" is nothing but an evidence free ad hoc, and raises more questions than it answers. If the sea were less salty, where did all the Marine animals that can ONLY live in salt water come from?

 

[Skwim]

You're the one making claims about Noah loading animals who breathe through nostrils. Don't get ****ty at me that that group includes animals inconvenient to you story. Manatees, seals, otters, dolphins and whales all breath through nostrils. But I expect your answer will be another handwaved goal post shift.

The salt water issue is a huge one. That alone disproves the Flood myth in my opinion. "Well, I don't think the sea was as salty then" is nothing but an evidence free ad hoc, and raises more questions than it answers. If the sea were less salty, where did all the Marine animals that can ONLY live in salt water come from?

Although the sea water/ fresh water issue is always ignored---people thinking that all aquatic life can live in any kind of water---this is a huge mistake. With the exception of a few euryhaline fish, those that can live in both fresh and salt water, such as salmon, the Atlantic stingray, and the bull shark, all others will die if the salt level changes significantly, which would be the case with 40 days and 40 nights of pure rainwater diluting the oceans. OR, was it the case that Noah and his magnificent 7 made provisions aboard the ark for the thousands upon thousands of fish species in the world to survive until their waters reached their original salinity levels?

.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Oh yeah, that’s because we have so much figured out in geology, right?

The currently accepted hypothesis of how the Earth formed is laughable! (‘Interplanetary rocks and debris just aggregated together, somehow.’)

The known unknowns – the outstanding 49 questions in Earth sciences (Part I) - GeoLog

And this link is just Part 1 of 3.
Here’s another summary:
49 open questions in geoscience - Mapping Ignorance

I am sorry that you did not understand the articles that you linked. One thing we do know it was not "somehow". Here is an explanation for you, don't take it personally, but it does have just a little rough language, you have been warned:

 

[Dell]

Global Flood evidence:

***1.Vast herds of grazing animals, perhaps millions of them, discovered within the permafrost (called muck fields by some, due to the mud mixed in from previous melting), in the Alaskan and Yukon regions. In the Siberian permafrost, a few have been discovered upright, with food (some which only grows in temperate climates) discovered still unchewed in their mouths, like the Berezovka Mammoth. (They died instantly, not from a slow-moving ice age!)

http://www.amendez.com/Noahs Ark Articles/NAS Worldwide Mammal Massacre.pdf

The question is raised — and properly so: “How could a Global Flood cause such freezing temperatures?” Keep in mind, some of the water (not most...most were from the “vast springs” underneath the ground) came from above, from the atmosphere....the troposphere?...the mesosphere?...the stratosphere? The Bible doesn’t say, it is silent. (Maybe from all five.) But the waters existing above the Earth prior to the Flood, resulted in mild temperatures, and pleasantly warm.... similar to a greenhouse effect, worldwide. (That’s why Adam & Eve could go naked, and be very comfortable.) Yes, the Bible indicates there were seasons, but apparently mild ones.

All of that drastically changed, with the break in this vapor(?) / ice (?) canopy! Temperatures would drop suddenly!

***2.This project, completed by physics students of the University of Leicester, provides an interesting conclusion:
‘Noah’s Ark would have floated’.

And this one:
Could Noah’s Ark Float? In Theory, Yes | Science | Smithsonian

Further information:
Noah’s Ark was the focus of a major 1993 scientific study headed by Dr. Seon Hong at the world-class ship research center KRISO, based in Daejeon, South Korea. Dr. Hong’s team compared twelve hulls of different proportions to discover which design was most practical. No hull shape was found to significantly outperform the 4,300-year-old biblical design. In fact, the Ark’s careful balance is easily lost if the proportions are modified, rendering the vessel either unstable, prone to fracture, or dangerously uncomfortable.
The research team found that the proportions of Noah’s Ark carefully balanced the conflicting demands of stability (resistance to capsizing), comfort (“seakeeping”), and strength. In fact, the Ark has the same proportions as a modern cargo ship.


The study also confirmed that the Ark could handle waves as high as 100 ft (30 m). Dr. Hong is now director general of the facility and claims “life came from the sea,” obviously not the words of a creationist on a mission to promote the worldwide Flood. Endorsing the seaworthiness of Noah’s Ark obviously did not damage Dr. Hong’s credibility.

Dr. Seon Won Hong was principal research scientist when he headed up the Noah’s Ark investigation. In May 2005 Dr. Hong was appointed director general of MOERI (formerly KRISO). Dr. Hong earned a B.S. degree in naval architecture from Seoul National University and a Ph.D. degree in applied mechanics from the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor.

***3.Coupled with that, the dimensions of the Ark, a 6-to-1 ratio of length to width, and 10-to-1 ratio of length to height, are exactly what is needed for a non-powered vessel of that size to maintain stability! Only in the last 2 centuries have ship builders recognized that these proportions are perfect for non-powered barge-like ships to be seaworthy. This is powerful evidence supporting a literal interpretation: How could Moses have known, in recording the event, that Noah was given such ideal dimensions? Fortunate guessing?

***4.The numerous Flood legends (exceeding 250, one anthropologist says near 1,000), that share many similarities, some strikingly so, that indicates a common source.



***5.Furthermore, the Bible indicates, in Psalms 104, that the Flood was the cause of Earth’s mountains reaching such great heights. (With the underground waters spewing upward, the land would, by necessity, settle downward.) This would mean the high mountainous ranges we have today, like the Alps, the Himalayas, the Andes, and others, did not exist before the Flood; they are relatively young in formation. Some were even underwater prior to the Flood — see #6. (Not that the rocks are young, but that the features they form, are new, geologically speaking. What do we see? We observe crisp, well-defined features! If these mountains were millions of years old, we would see weathered, rounded features, due to the extreme wind and other erosion forces that they constantly endure. But we don’t! (This evidence is the easiest of all the geological facts to see...yet to me the most overlooked.)

***6.[related to #5]The marine creatures discovered on the tops of many mountain ranges, even on Mt. Everest — gigantic clams, some measuring 5 feet or more across, found in the closed position, indicating (again) that these creatures experienced a catastrophic event, leading to their quick death. (Clams in natural death, die w/ their shells open.) All remain exposed....if they’re millions of years old, why aren’t they eroded, also? Because these particular ones died at the Flood!!

***7.Where did all the water go? Apparently, it’s still here, at the Earth. If we again take into account what Psalms 104 reveals — that it was the Flood that caused our current topography, the very high mountains and low valleys, then the Earth’s terrain was somewhat smoother than now. (And Genesis tells us, the highest mountain was covered by around 22 ft. of the water.) It’s been determined that if the Earth was smoothed out like a billiard ball, the present water in all the ocean and lake basins would cover the planet to a depth of 2.5 miles! More than enough.....yet, scientists have discovered even more water in the Earth’s mantle, estimated to be almost 10 times as much as exists on our surface! So, that presents no obstacle!

***8.The Chinese character for "boat" comprises three radically different symbols: 'vessel', 'mouth' (representing a person), and the number ''8”. Why is this significant? Because there were 8 people who survived the Flood in the Ark. Some ancient Semitic person thought the Flood Event was worthy enough, to incorporate it into their language, helping others to remember the Chinese word for boat. They didn't have a Bible to get the idea from, and I doubt Moses knew any Chinese people, to get his writing from!

Are you of the mindset that, when reading about God causing a global Flood, you don’t think He’d use His power throughout other aspects of the event? Or afterwards? Let’s see what the Genesis account reveals: He brought the waters above and below to Earth’s surface....He gave Noah instructions on building the Ark, providing those ideal proportions....He brought the animals to Noah (No, Noah didn’t have to go get them, as some dishonestly purport.)....and He closed the door. Only those w/ closed minds would assume (want to, maybe?) that God’s power stopped there. Is He somehow incapable of protecting the occupants in the Ark, or the plant life underneath the waters? Does Jehovah God have to reveal / explain every aspect involved? If He brought the animal to Noah, is it too much of a stretch to believe that Jehovah redistributed them to their former locations after the Flood?

Jehovah God is not required to explain anything more to us....what we do know, the evidence, is enough to build faith in the account.

Another indirect line of evidence, as to why God would cause such a catastrophe, are the Greek, Roman, Hindu, Norse, etc., myths describing “gods” interacting w/ humans, having relations w/ women, and producing offspring. (Since most all myths have some kernel of truth, this common narrative between them, of gods having sex w/ human females & bearing children, must be it.) It parallels Genesis 6:1-4, and explains to some extent why Jehovah had to step in, to thwart the eventual subjugation of the human race into sex slavery. But these “myths” created after the event, have kept it living in the collective mind of the human race.

For arguments sake let's say there was a "global" flood and a land animal saving boat.... the big question is when was it? Populations and existing civilizations rules out anytime post 10000bc for sure...geological columns rule out it could have happened prior to humans... 200,000bc or so..

 

[james dixon]

In my view the use of the term “ark” was a metaphor used to help the population at the time understand the event by using terms they could understand. Afterall the books in the bible were written over 2,000 years ago.

Today in the 21st century scientists have proved that the earth did experience a great “flood”

Today in the 21st century scientists have proven that humans have only been around for 200,000 years.

Today the known world oil reserves will be sucked up and burned within the next 10-20 years.

Today we know that the world climates are changing faster than before

If we don’t get together and make global changes on how we live our live’s there will not be a tomorrow for our grandchildren to live in.

-

 

[Audie]

For arguments sake let's say there was a "global" flood and a land animal saving boat.... the big question is when was it? Populations and existing civilizations rules out anytime post 10000bc for sure...geological columns rule out it could have happened prior to humans... 200,000bc or so..

And the rest of the data rules it out happening any
other time.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Okay, I read it, but so far I haven't seen a thing saying, or even implying:

"the dimensions of the Ark, a 6-to-1 ratio of length to width, and 10-to-1 ratio of length to height, are exactly what is needed for a non-powered vessel of that size to maintain stability!"​

or

"Only in the last 2 centuries have ship builders recognized that these proportions are perfect for non-powered barge-like ships to be seaworthy."

.​

Ok, it took me awhile, but I found a report from a non-religious source. (As I usually try to do, since quoting from religious sources fires up the ire in some people, as if evidences, ie., the facts, are somehow tainted by who reports it. Whatever.)

In the early 1900’s, a Mr. Vogt who was a naval architect, built a marine vessel in Denmark using the same proportions and style of construction as the Ark, just much smaller. It was thirty feet long, five feet wide, and three feet high. Tests of the vessel revealed that the proportions were perfect for maximum resistance to the stresses created by the force of the sea. These tests were performed in the Baltic sea by it’s designer, Mr. Vogt,

The Copenhagen newspaper, Dagbladet, of 31st August, 1904, on reporting these experiments, commented: "The Royal Shipbuilding yard has recently completed the construction of a remarkable vessel. It is 30 feet long, 5 feet wide, and 3 feet high... It is a new Noah's Ark, constructed after the design of Mr. Vogt, the engineer, the Carlsburg Fund bearing the expense of its production . . . The remarkable thing about the Bible measurements is that after thousands of years' experience in the art of shipbuilding they must be confessed to be still the ideal proportions for the construction of a big ship. [T]he Ark was not intended to sail, but to lie still on the water, and to give the best and quietest condition for the comfort of its inhabitants.... In a storm the motion of the Ark would be reduced to a minimum . . . If the greatest living engineer in the world was given such a commission as this, to construct as large and strong a vessel as to lie still upon the sea, and as simply constructed as the Ark, he could not make a better vessel."

The Copenhagen Donnebrag, another newspaper, wrote that the vessel "drifted sideways with the tide, creating a belt of calm water to leeward, and the test proved conclusively that a vessel of this primitive make might be perfectly seaworthy for a long voyage."

And Dr. S.W.Hong’s study further verified this.

The question needs to be asked...How did the writer of Genesis know? If those ratios for shipbuilding — 30 * 5 * 3 — had been discovered in ancient times, then why did the Epic of Gilgamesh report it as being 120-cubit square, and 90 cubits high? We know that that would just roll and bob!

Remember, Noah’s Ark had no power — no mast or sails, no oars, etc., to move it. It only needed to float.

I have another report on a different ship, somewhere.

This account, though, says nothing about the Mr.Vogt vessel being coated with pitch / bitumen, which was part of the Ark’s design.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

If not having absolutely everything figured out is problematic, how does that mesh with your spitballing ideas on the flood? For example, with your earlier post about gravity causing the ground to collapse once the "vast underground springs" emptied.....what caused the underground springs to empty?

(First off, I didn't say they emptied...did I?)

Are you really going to ask me, 'What caused it?'?!

It was a Who. (For reasons I explained at the bottom of the OP.)

 

[Subduction Zone]

Ok, it took me awhile, but I found a report from a non-religious source. (As I usually try to do, since quoting from religious sources fires up the ire in some people, as if evidences, ie., the facts, are somehow tainted by who reports it. Whatever.)

In the early 1900’s, a Mr. Vogt who was a naval architect, built a marine vessel in Denmark using the same proportions and style of construction as the Ark, just much smaller. It was thirty feet long, five feet wide, and three feet high. Tests of the vessel revealed that the proportions were perfect for maximum resistance to the stresses created by the force of the sea. These tests were performed in the Baltic sea by it’s designer, Mr. Vogt,

The Copenhagen newspaper, Dagbladet, of 31st August, 1904, on reporting these experiments, commented: "The Royal Shipbuilding yard has recently completed the construction of a remarkable vessel. It is 30 feet long, 5 feet wide, and 3 feet high... It is a new Noah's Ark, constructed after the design of Mr. Vogt, the engineer, the Carlsburg Fund bearing the expense of its production . . . The remarkable thing about the Bible measurements is that after thousands of years' experience in the art of shipbuilding they must be confessed to be still the ideal proportions for the construction of a big ship. [T]he Ark was not intended to sail, but to lie still on the water, and to give the best and quietest condition for the comfort of its inhabitants.... In a storm the motion of the Ark would be reduced to a minimum . . . If the greatest living engineer in the world was given such a commission as this, to construct as large and strong a vessel as to lie still upon the sea, and as simply constructed as the Ark, he could not make a better vessel."

The Copenhagen Donnebrag, another newspaper, wrote that the vessel "drifted sideways with the tide, creating a belt of calm water to leeward, and the test proved conclusively that a vessel of this primitive make might be perfectly seaworthy for a long voyage."

And Dr. S.W.Hong’s study further verified this.

The question needs to be asked...How did the writer of Genesis know? If those ratios for shipbuilding — 30 * 5 * 3 — had been discovered in ancient times, then why did the Epic of Gilgamesh report it as being 120-cubit square, and 90 cubits high? We know that that would just roll and bob!

Remember, Noah’s Ark had no power — no mast or sails, no oars, etc., to move it. It only needed to float.

I have another report on a different ship, somewhere.

This account, though, says nothing about the Mr.Vogt vessel being coated with pitch / bitumen, which was part of the Ark’s design.

Oh my, you did not understand your source. "Perfectly seaworthy" does not mean that the dimensions were perfect. All it means was that that particular vessel was seaworthy. It does not say that those dimensions were better or worse than other possibilities.

Seriously if your reading comprehension is this badly biased you will never be able to find any proper support for your claims.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Oh my, you did not understand your source. "Perfectly seaworthy" does not mean that the dimensions were perfect. All it means was that that particular vessel was seaworthy. It does not say that those dimensions were better or worse than other possibilities.

Seriously if your reading comprehension is this badly biased you will never be able to find any proper support for your claims.

Never discussed dimensions in this thread, just the ratios / proportions of them, lol.

Check your own comprehension, please.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Never discussed dimensions in this thread, just the ratios / proportions of them, lol.

Check your own comprehension, please.

Yes, and you did not understand the article that you linked. It did not support your claim.

Please, Ninth Commandment violation. Try to reread that and see if you can see your error.

 

[Jose Fly]

(First off, I didn't say they emptied...did I?)

Are you really going to ask me, 'What caused it?'?!

It was a Who. (For reasons I explained at the bottom of the OP.)

So as before, you revert to "God did it" to explain significant aspects of this alleged event. And as before, that leads to an obvious question.....what's your point with this thread? If you're hoping to persuade people to the position that the Biblical flood is objectively believable and empirically justified, do you appreciate how appealing to miracles runs counter to that?

 

[sooda]

Bible tells there was heavy rain that lasted 40 days. That means it was cloudy. And it means the weather cooled. Also, the vast amount of water could have cooled. Also, because living things died, they didn’t warm the planet anymore.

These mythical flood stories originate out of real flooding of the Euphrates River Basin. Periodically the mountain snowmelt in the Spring combined with heavy Spring rains caused the River to jump its river bed.

 

[Subduction Zone]

These mythical flood stories originate out of real flooding of the Euphrates River Basin. Periodically the mountain snowmelt in the Spring combined with heavy Spring rains caused the River to jump its river bed.

Yes, Noah's Flood May Have Happened, But Not Over the Whole Earth

The Flood of Noah has a lot in common with Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter.

 

[sooda]

Yes, Noah's Flood May Have Happened, But Not Over the Whole Earth

The Flood of Noah has a lot in common with Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter.

I grew up looking at core samples so I have a pretty good idea about strata.

There is a flood sediment in the Euphrates river basin which is right where you'd expect it to be and the reason its called the Fertile Crescent.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I grew up looking at core samples so I have a pretty good idea about strata.

There is a flood sediment in the Euphrates river basin which is right where you'd expect it to be and the reason its called the Fertile Crescent.

The same applies in the U.S.. There is a reason that farmers keep returning to the flood plains of the Mississippi river.

 

[sooda]

The same applies in the U.S.. There is a reason that farmers keep returning to the flood plains of the Mississippi river.

LOLOL….. Yep. Same with the Nile Delta.

This is idiocy to be debating about myths.