Florida governor DeSantis says recreational pot and abortion are too radical

[Clizby Wampuscat]

If that's true, then I'm sure you can name another case where you would deny the bodily autonomy of a cis man. Just one.

Misogyny is hatred or mistrust of women. I have none, I have explained my position and planety of women hold my view.

It's not name-calling; just holding up a mirror to what you're doing.

No, it is what the left does. Calling it misogyny does not address my argument at all. You just want to make me look bad so you I will end the argument or go off on a red herring.

At least you're admitting that your position entails denying bodily autonomy to pregnant people. You're the first anti-choicer I've seen do that.

I did not say that exactly, I said they have a responsibility to care for the unborn after their actions created the fetus.

Bodily autonomy doesn't include the right to occupy someone else's body without their consent.

They gave consent when they had sex. I know you disagree. One possible outcome of sex is pregnancy, just like one possible outcome of having a loaded gun is killing someone. If someone accidentally kills someone with a loaded gun, I know you would still hold them responsible.

That's right. I think that abortion should be safe, available and taxpayer-funded at every point in pregnancy.

Ok, thanks.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Those aren't my values, nor those of most western Europeans and citizens of English-speaking countries.

And that's not autonomy.

Woman can do anything they want with their bodies as adults. But killing a human life should not be one of them. Just like for men. It is about responsibility for actions freely taken. She and the father are responsible for that life. Killing it is not an ethical or moral action.

What you mean is that the woman doesn't have autonomy when she needs it.

No, what I mean is she does not have the right to kill a human life once she created it.

Now if that fetus is a girl, if and when she becomes pregnant years later, she is trumped by any fetus in her womb. This is to please religious people who think they are enforcing their god's will. Many people don't care what religious people think a god they don't believe in wants, and don't want their rights limited by such thinking.

You might or might not be religious yourself, but if not, your preference is law because most with your values are.

I am not religious so I don't care what religious people think either. Their reasons for being pro life are not the same as mine, I think their reasons are flawed.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

You do realize that focusing on "responsibility" tells us that it isn't really about saving fetuses for you, right?

And abortion is a responsible option. It's only your personal values that suggest otherwise.

Ok

Nonsense. If not for your existence, you wouldn't need a kidney, and your father is just as responsible for your existence as your mother is.

So my parents are responsible for all my health issues I may ever have in my life? That is actually nonsense.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

So I wonder why my position is so hard for you to understand.

It sounds like I actually understood it. Your reaction is bizarre. I was just telling you what I thought you were saying to make sure I understood, Then you just insult me for it.

(That is not really true, I understand exactly why it is so hard for you to understand, but I am being polite)

No you are not being polite. Why don't you think it is hard for me to understand you. Have the guts to tell me why.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

So if I get hit by a car on my way to work and can't work, I should lose my job and income because I drove to work?

How is this a logical analogy? The accident was not your choice was it.

logical analogy of a misogynistic incel.

See above.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Like the right to not be raped. And the right to not be forced to get pregnant as a result of a rape.

But apparently big government can take away the right to not be pregnant, even when it's against a woman's will.

Men have the right to not be raped as well. If you want to talk about a specific case then ok. I have been talking about women who choose to have sex freely.

Do you think fetuses that have devopmental issues have rights when they won't survive birth?

Yes, they have rights. But again that is another specific case I can talk about if you want. Not what we have been discussing though.

Big government can pass a law that allows assigning ownership of one of the kidneys to the son. As long as government agrees it has the authority to do this, it can do it. And if we have courts that are sufficiently sympathetic to this way of thinking they will affirm this law.

Once that kidney is legally the son's the son can use government to enforce qualified people to take possession of it. After all where in the constitution does it say you have rights to keep your organs?

Ok, let me know when this happens.

This illustrates the government assuming the authority to give zygotes a protective status, and where the government makes the decision about this collection of cells that the person whose body it is in has no say. The zygote has no brain, no citizenship, no constitutional rights as a born person, etc. The government treats this collection of cells based on what it could become in the future, not what it is. And it assumes the zygote will develop without problems.

Ok.

In Texas the law is so broad that doctors can't give care to pregnant women who need it.

That is a problem if true. So let's fix that.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Misogyny is hatred or mistrust of women. I have none, I have explained my position and planety of women hold my view.

No, it is what the left does. Calling it misogyny does not address my argument at all. You just want to make me look bad so you I will end the argument or go off on a red herring.

The action you propose - banning abortion - harms women and is consistent with misogyny.

If you consider it a win to merely have the outward appearance of misogyny while feeling that something else is motivating your desire to hurt women, well... you do you.

I did not say that exactly, I said they have a responsibility to care for the unborn after their actions created the fetus.

They gave consent when they had sex. I know you disagree. One possible outcome of sex is pregnancy, just like one possible outcome of having a loaded gun is killing someone. If someone accidentally kills someone with a loaded gun, I know you would still hold them responsible.

To the extent that they did something wrong, they're responsible. You may think that abortion is wrong, but again: this is your subjective view. If you want to change people's behaviour, give them better options that they'll freely choose instead.

And we don't even violate people's bodily autonomy in the case of a culpable shooting.

If you store your gun improperly - or even if you shoot someone yourself - and someone gets shot, we don't say "okay - you're responsible, so if you're a match, we're removing your kidney to replace the one that the bullet destroyed."

We don't even make the shooter donate blood to help the victim.

Bodily autonomy is inviolate in every case... except to people like you think that women's bodily autonomy can sometimes be tossed aside. This is why I describe your position as misogynistic: if you weren't valuing women less than a typical person, you could never have adopted the position that you have.

 

[F1fan]

Men have the right to not be raped as well. If you want to talk about a specific case then ok. I have been talking about women who choose to have sex freely.

So do you think a woman who’s raped has the right to end a pregnancy?

Yes, they have rights. But again that is another specific case I can talk about if you want. Not what we have been discussing though.

You aren’t recognizing various developmental stages where it comes to abortion rights. The Roe decision did. Most laws did.

I don’t see any of your posts saying there’s any right to privacy and ending a pregnancy even after a month.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So my parents are responsible for all my health issues I may ever have in my life? That is actually nonsense.

If an unwanted pregnancy is a foreseeable consequence of protected sex where contraception fails, then having an adult son with some serious health problem is a foreseeable consequence of having a baby.

But again: why the focus on responsibility? Are you anti-choice because you want to save what you consider human lives, or are you anti-choice because you want pregnant people to experience what you've decided they "deserve"?

Because if saving lives is your goal, well, your father has a spare kidney. If you'll die without it and he'll live with just one, then the math works even if we take the kidney against your father's will... as long as we don't care about his bodily autonomy.

So this leads us to the question: are you good with violating bodily autonomy across the board or are you only interested in violating the bodily autonomy of people with uteruses?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Women have more rights in the US than men do already. It is not about the number of rights. The mother and father made a choice to have sex that lead to the pregnancy, they have a responsibility to the unborn life they created. If I need a kidney from my father he is not responsible to give that to me, he did not cause the situation where I need a kidney.

What rights do a woman have that men do not have?

 

[Pogo]

What rights do a woman have that men do not have?

The right to get pregnant?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

The action you propose - banning abortion - harms women and is consistent with misogyny.

If you consider it a win to merely have the outward appearance of misogyny while feeling that something else is motivating your desire to hurt women, well... you do you.

I have no desire to hurt women. Just another attempt to divert the conversation.

To the extent that they did something wrong, they're responsible. You may think that abortion is wrong, but again: this is your subjective view. If you want to change people's behaviour, give them better options that they'll freely choose instead.

Murder is wrong is a subjective view, if you want murderers to stop murdering give them a better option that they will freely choose instead

If you store your gun improperly - or even if you shoot someone yourself - and someone gets shot, we don't say "okay - you're responsible, so if you're a match, we're removing your kidney to replace the one that the bullet destroyed."

We don't even make the shooter donate blood to help the victim.

Bodily autonomy is inviolate in every case... except to people like you think that women's bodily autonomy can sometimes be tossed aside. This is why I describe your position as misogynistic: if you weren't valuing women less than a typical person, you could never have adopted the position that you have.

This is untrue. I have stated my position many times now and it has nothing to do with hating women. Are we done then?

This is why I describe your position as hating the unborn: if you weren't valuing the unborn less than a typical person, you could never have adopted the position that you have.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

So do you think a woman who’s raped has the right to end a pregnancy?

Possibly. I think that falls under the category of a no win situation and should be left to the mother but I am not totally convinced of that position. Still trying to come to a conclusion on that.

You aren’t recognizing various developmental stages where it comes to abortion rights. The Roe decision did. Most laws did.

Ok, I agree.

I don’t see any of your posts saying there’s any right to privacy and ending a pregnancy even after a month.

I don't believe that should be allowed unless there are special circumstances.

 

[fantome profane]

Possibly. I think that falls under the category of a no win situation and should be left to the mother but I am not totally convinced of that position. Still trying to come to a conclusion on that.

And women everywhere are holding their breath wondering how and when you will decide their fate.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

If an unwanted pregnancy is a foreseeable consequence of protected sex where contraception fails, then having an adult son with some serious health problem is a foreseeable consequence of having a baby.

Really? Having sex is a direct link to pregnancy. Having an adult son with health problems is not a direct link to being born.

But again: why the focus on responsibility? Are you anti-choice because you want to save what you consider human lives, or are you anti-choice because you want pregnant people to experience what you've decided they "deserve"?

Just stop. I NEVER said anywhere I hate women or want to punish them. I have never reported anyone her for the false things they have said about me but you may be the first.

You hold the father responsible for taking care of the child but not the mother. You are inconsistent in your stance.

Because if saving lives is your goal, well, your father has a spare kidney. If you'll die without it and he'll live with just one, then the math works even if we take the kidney against your father's will... as long as we don't care about his bodily autonomy.

I have addressed this a couple of times.

So this leads us to the question: are you good with violating bodily autonomy across the board or are you only interested in violating the bodily autonomy of people with uteruses?

I have already addressed this a couple of times.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

What rights do a woman have that men do not have?

The right to have an abortion. The right to decide they cannot financially afford a kid so they can abort them, men don't have that right.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

And women everywhere are holding their breath wondering how and when you will decide their fate.

So you won't tell me why you think I cannot understand your position? Why?

 

[fantome profane]

So you won't tell me why you think I cannot understand your position? Why?

Do you not understand my position?

 

[Pogo]

The right to have an abortion. The right to decide they cannot financially afford a kid so they can abort them, men don't have that right.

And if men could get pregnant abortion would be a sacrament.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The right to have an abortion. The right to decide they cannot financially afford a kid so they can abort them, men don't have that right.

Men have the right to an abortion if they get pregnant. You will not see any laws banning this in any state.

EDIT: I think I see your problem in hindsight. Men have the right to have an abortion. They do not have the right to force someone else to have an abortion. But women do not have that right either.

By the way, for our Christian or even Jewish members, in the Old Testament a married man could force his wife to have a chemical abortion if he suspected her of cheating on him. Men no longer have the right. Someone finally spilled the beans that women are not property.