Florida Now Banning Dictionaries & Encyclopedias

[SkepticThinker]

You state as a fact that they aren't pornographic even though you don't say you've seen the ones in question. And your statement is contrary to those of the Library staff that determined they could be. Implying you know better than the Library staff even though you haven't even seen them and they have seen them and they have a duty to determine correctly whether they are. If those encyclopedias and dictionaries are not pornographic then the Library staff is at fault for removing them, no one else. And children need to be protected from incompetent or nefarious librarians. More than some made up rightwing "boogie man" of yours.

LOL Now we're demonizing librarians. Those evil book pushers!

 

[Shaul]

I find that impossible to believe. But please, tell us what the statutory definition of pornography is.

The standard is referenced in the Law we have been discussing, HB 1069. The Law the text of which I already provided a link. The link you apparently were too lazy to even open. Those definitions.

 

[Heyo]

All materials, actually. But your addition of dictionaries and encyclopedias is a red herring. No parent has filed a complaint against any of those. According to the article the Library staff themselves did that. If you doubt that dictionaries or encyclopedias could be pornographic, and let's assume they aren't, that begs the question, why did the Library staff include them along with the 1600(!) books voluntarily removed? Two possible reasons among the many are: the Library staff was inflating the number, in order to make the Bill they dislike look bad, and they used the opportunity to get rid of books they didn't want anyways so they could justify getting more replacements.

No matter the intention (about which we both only can speculate), the fact remains that many books are no longer accessible from school libraries. That may or may not have been the intention of the bill but it did happen in Florida. Therefore I feel justified in saying that Florida banned books.

 

[Shaul]

LOL Now we're demonizing librarians. Those evil book pushers!

Au contraire. I am only questioning those librarians who would do the things I described. Most librarians are conscientious. However you are putting all Librarians above reproach as if they are all angels incapable of every suffering from human foibles or bad motives. Save your faux indignation. It is sad.

 

[Shaul]

No matter the intention (about which we both only can speculate), the fact remains that many books are no longer accessible from school libraries. That may or may not have been the intention of the bill but it did happen in Florida. Therefore I feel justified in saying that Florida banned books.

There is nothing in the Bill that requires removing any materials preemptively. This particular Library, based on its local School District Board, took that upon themselves. So you are certainly not justified in saying the state of Florida did this. Florida hasn't banned any books.

 

[SkepticThinker]

They used to play this Canadian heritage commercial here a while back. It was about when women were first allowed to attend medical school way back in the day (like the 1880s or so).

The scene takes place in a University classroom, where anatomy is being taught. There is a professor up at the front talking about body parts and stuff. Then the camera pans over to the visual aid, which is a drawing of a large man's naked body .... with a paper covering up the man's genital area.

Why, you ask?

Because the male doctors\professors thought it was too indecent for women to look at. (Remember, we're talking about women training to be medical doctors, same as the men). So, they don't get to learn about them or see what they look like. It's pornographic. Women can't handle that stuff. Not even doctor women. That's too much for them.

The commercial ends with the one woman in the crowd of medical trainees, marching up to the front of the room and ripping the paper right off those genitals and chucking it on the ground. (She says something cool too, but sadly, I can't remember what it is.)

Perhaps some can see where I am going with this.

 

[Heyo]

There is nothing in the Bill that requires removing any materials preemptively. This particular Library, based on its local School District Board, took that upon themselves. So you are certainly not justified in saying the state of Florida did this. Florida hasn't banned any books.

Maybe I'm just ignorant of the US school system. Are school librarians employed by the state?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Au contraire. I am only questioning those librarians who would do the things I described. Most librarians are conscientious. However you are putting all Librarians above reproach as if they are all angels incapable of every suffering from human foibles or bad motives. Save your faux indignation. It is sad.

Oh, it's real indignation.

We're just adding librarians to the list of powerless people we're demonizing now, alongside trans people and immigrants, I see. And the pointless culture wars continue.

 

[Shaul]

Maybe I'm just ignorant of the US school system. Are school librarians employed by the state?

In the U.S. there are private and public schools. Public schools are creatures of local school districts which are in turn creatures of the individual state and/or a local entity such as a city, county or parrish. (Parrish is this context being a government entity, not a sectarian one) Funding for public schools, and their libraries, come from a combination of federal, state and local funding. Regulations of public schools and their libraries come from the state supplemented by regulations at the local district level. There are federal guidelines, but states have the primary regulation of schools within them.

 

[Shaul]

Oh, it's real indignance.

We're just adding librarians to the list of powerless people we're demonizing now, alongside trans people and immigrants, I see. And the pointless culture wars continue.

Again, I didn't demonize anyone. Keeping insisting on what isn't true as you like.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

No, it doesn't lead to any ban. It leads to a temporary removal of the material until the adjudication. There is never any "ban". The "costs" of the process is little compared to the "costs" of children being exposed to pornography. Plus these costs you are worried about could be easily avoided by the schools being careful about the materials they acquire.

Dictionaries aren't porn but got removed. Everything about that is a waste of time, tax payer money and is pathetic.

 

[Estro Felino]

In the U.S. there are private and public schools. Public schools are creatures of local school districts which are in turn creatures of the individual state and/or a local entity such as a city, county or parrish. (Parrish is this context being a government entity, not a sectarian one) Funding for public schools, and their libraries, come from a combination of federal, state and local funding. Regulations of public schools and their libraries come from the state supplemented by regulations at the local district level. There are federal guidelines, but states have the primary regulation of schools within them.

With all due respect, but is there anything which isn't private in the US?
If privates control literally everything, either directly or indirectly, there is not the State.

 

[Shaul]

Dictionaries aren't porn but got removed. Everything about that is a waste of time, tax payer money and is pathetic.

You don't know those dictionaries aren't pornographic. It was THE LIBRARY staff that decided they might be pornographic. If they got that wrong, it was the Library staff's fault for the waste. No one required them to remove the materials. They chose to do that on their own. Any waste is the fault of this Library's staff and no one else.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You don't know those dictionaries aren't pornographic. It was THE LIBRARY staff that decided they might be pornographic. If they got that wrong, it was the Library staff's fault for the waste. No one required them to remove the materials. They chose to do that on their own. Any waste is the fault of this Library's staff and no one else.

I'd say it's the fault of whomever wrote the vague, poorly worded legislation.

Similar to Texas, where doctors are afraid to perform their duties, given the poorly worded anti-abortion laws now on the books.

 

[Shaul]

I'd say it's the fault of whomever wrote the vague, poorly worded legislation.

Similar to Texas, where doctors are afraid to perform their duties, given the poorly worded anti-abortion laws now on the books.

You would be wrong to say that. There is nothing in the law that requires the Library staff to do this. Only this one school district's Library staff misapplied this law like this. That suggests the law isn't vague at all.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You would be wrong to say that. There is nothing in the law that requires the Library staff to do this. Only this one school district's Library staff misapplied this law like this. That suggests the law isn't vague at all.

Would they be doing this if this legislation did not exist? Probably not, right?

Other school boards have also removed books, due to this legislation:

"Florida school districts removed approximately 300 books from library shelves last school year, according to a list of “removed or discontinued materials” that was quietly released by the state’s education department late last month.

The removals were prompted by more than 1,200 objections raised by parents of public school students or other Florida residents, according to a 16-page Florida Department of Education document that included the book list. "

"The discontinued titles include dozens of books containing LGBTQ themes or characters, including the award-winning memoirs “Gender Queer” and “All Boys Aren’t Blue,” as well as the illustrated children’s books “A Day in the Life of Marlon Bundo” and “And Tango Makes Three.” Other books on the list include Toni Morrison’s Pulitzer-winning novel “Beloved,” Bernard Malamud’s National Book-winning novel “The Fixer” and Margaret Atwood’s Booker Prize-winning novel “The Testaments.” [As someone who has read The Testaments multiple times, I can say I think this should be required reading.]

Florida school districts removed roughly 300 books last school year

The removed titles include dozens of books with LGBTQ topics or characters and several winners of prestigious book awards, including the Pulitzer Prize.

www.nbcnews.com

And ...

"Florida surpassed Texas as the state with the most books pulled from shelves in public schools this year, according to a report released yesterday from literary nonprofit PEN America. ...

Context: Book removals were sparked by what critics call Florida's "Don't Say Gay" laws and the Stop WOKE Act, which restricts instruction around racism, gender identity and sexual orientation in public schools.

• Fearing that educators and librarians could be penalized by those state laws, districts are now restricting access to certain books.
• PEN America says conservative activists are using a website called Book Looks to home in on what to deem objectionable."

https://www.axios.com/local/miami/2023/09/22/florida-leads-country-book-bans-pen-america

 

[Shaul]

Would they be doing this if this legislation did not exist? Probably not, right?

Actually, they probably would. Not stated in this article is some back story. Escambia district is currently party to a lawsuit, which started before this law passed, over pornographic materials. Their actions could be related to that.

Other school boards have also removed books, due to this legislation:

"Florida school districts removed approximately 300 books from library shelves last school year, according to a list of “removed or discontinued materials” that was quietly released by the state’s education department late last month.

Did you read what you wrote before simply cutting and pasting? The 300 books were removed last year. The provisions of this new law don't take effect until next July. Ergo this law didn't cause them.

The removals were prompted by more than 1,200 objections raised by parents of public school students or other Florida residents, according to a 16-page Florida Department of Education document that included the book list. "

So 300 books were removed but there were 1,200 objections. In other words most of the objections did not result in a removal at all. Which implies that the system works by only removing books that actually should be removed. Also these removals were based on previous legislation, not the new law. So your post is based on a significant error.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Actually, they probably would. Not stated in this article is some back story. Escambia district is currently party to a lawsuit, which started before this law passed, over pornographic materials. Their actions could be related to that.

Doubtful.

Did you read what you wrote before simply cutting and pasting? The 300 books were removed last year. The provisions of this new law don't take effect until next July. Ergo this law didn't cause them.

There is similar legislation already in place, which the new legislation expands upon ...


The Individual Freedom Act, commonly known as the Stop Wrongs to Our Kids and Employees Act and abbreviated to the Stop WOKE Act, is a Florida state law which regulates the content of instruction and training in schools and workplaces. Among other provisions, it prohibits instruction that individuals share responsibility for others' past actions by virtue of their race, sex or national origin.[1] After passing both chambers of the Republican-controlled Florida Legislature along party lines, it was signed by Governor Ron DeSantis on April 22, 2022, and entered into effect July 1 the same year.[2]

So 300 books were removed but there were 1,200 objections. In other words most of the objections did not result in a removal at all. Which implies that the system works by only removing books that actually should be removed. Also these removals were based on previous legislation, not the new law. So your post is based on a significant error.

This law just takes the last one to new levels (of stupid).

• "Part of the legislation, known as HB 1069, "expands parental rights in education by prohibiting classroom instruction on sexual orientation and gender identity in Pre-K through 8th grade," according to the office of Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis (R)."

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You don't know those dictionaries aren't pornographic. It was THE LIBRARY staff that decided they might be pornographic. If they got that wrong, it was the Library staff's fault for the waste. No one required them to remove the materials. They chose to do that on their own. Any waste is the fault of this Library's staff and no one else.

They weren't sex dictionaries, and the library pulled them because Florida Republicans (most Republicans these days) have went fascist and a fascist never can move fast enough for their own liking when it comes to purging information amd books and demanding everyone else conform.
Compare it to California where we banned book bans and instead let individual parents be parents rather than having the state come in and make blanket choices for all parents.
Dont want your kid reading a certain book? Be a ****ing parents and quit havung the state force your personal values on all of us (only a few are responsible for the mountain of book challenges and bans).

 

[Shadow Wolf]

This law just takes the last one to new levels (of stupid).

• "Part of the legislation, known as HB 1069, "expands parental rights in education by prohibiting classroom instruction on sexual orientation and gender identity in Pre-K through 8th grade," according to the office of Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis (R)."

I almost wish I could be a teacher in 1Florida to cause one of the biggest, stinkiest headaches in US education whem suddenly everyone in y class is just a person, there is no male or female, and the lessons become people love and like other people for many different reasons and in different ways.
It's not whatthey had in mind, but that's how you've got to do it if you want tostay within the law.