For Atheist Mystics

[Willamena]

I have had evenings where it was obvious to me that everything is one. Thinginess was difficult to hold on to. I was pretty alarmed but I was expecting to find some things alarming if you know what I mean.

Is this similar to a mystical experience?

I would say that the experience fits the bill if it was profound--that is, if it moved you in ways (realizations) you weren't going before.

 

[Windwalker]

You are not saying that technique is unimportant?

It's peculiar that was your takeaway from what I posted. You might wish to read it again more closely. I think you'll see it's not saying anything too differently in the end. The important point is that it is not the technique that produces the results. The gardener does not make the plant grow.

 

[allfoak]

It's peculiar that was your takeaway from what I posted. You might wish to read it again more closely. I think you'll see it's not saying anything too differently in the end. The important point is that it is not the technique that produces the results. The gardener does not make the plant grow.

no need to review.
I just needed an answer.

 

[Windwalker]

no need to review.
I just needed an answer.

Did you get that, or need more clarification?

 

[allfoak]

Did you get that, or need more clarification?

got it

 

[Windwalker]

If the very idea of an ineffable experience is 'confusing' then great! You are on the right track because one of the most important changes a mystical experience can bring to your life is to trip up your rational, normal train of thought and open a person up to an entirely new way of seeing themselves and the world in which they live. At first the 'revelation' can cause the individual great pain and uncertainty, a period often known as a 'dark night of the soul' but ultimately it brings about a peace that passes all understanding.

Typically this follows the 'revelation' as one struggles to find that Light again, but it escapes them. Correct? I'd like to hear your further thoughts on the dark night of the soul.

 

[mystic64]

Ineffability, the incapacity of an individual to adequately express in words what they have 'experienced', is one of the hallmarks of a 'mystical experience' ie



If the very idea of an ineffable experience is 'confusing' then great! You are on the right track because one of the most important changes a mystical experience can bring to your life is to trip up your rational, normal train of thought and open a person up to an entirely new way of seeing themselves and the world in which they live. At first the 'revelation' can cause the individual great pain and uncertainty, a period often known as a 'dark night of the soul' but ultimately it brings about a peace that passes all understanding.

Boy have you hit that nail on the head . "God is beautiful, everything is beautiful," can be the most terrifying thing that one has ever incountered .

 

[mystic64]

Typically this follows the 'revelation' as one struggles to find that Light again, but it escapes them. Correct? I'd like to hear your further thoughts on the dark night of the soul.

Windwalker, I know that you are not asking me, but I love your question. "Struggles to find the light again," Those words are the kicker, because one is struggling to find something that is not lost. The light is understanding, the dark is the not understood unknown. When one steps out into the not understood unknown everything becomes dark. Overtime that section of the not understood unknown becomes understood and this understanding becomes light. Now if one would just stop there all would be well . But no one does not stop there, they step back out into another section of the not understood unknown and the dark returns until that section of the not understood unknown is understood and then the light returns. And each time the light returns one experiences a greater cognitive leap of understanding. Eventually it becomes a continuous "phase out, phase in" experience. And each time one "phases in" it is a bigger, "Whoa! Who knew?!" Eventually one begins to understand that the "phase out" dark stage is just an input and processing stage and it becomes no big deal. The light is not lost, it just seems to be before it gets "bigger" . The mystics and the yogis all say that the dark night or grey zone eventually permanently goes away. The truth is that it only goes away permanently when one decides that they have had or recieved enough and one quits stepping back out into the not understood unknown. I spend most of my time in the dark, because once the light is experienced it becomes old news and I want more . So back into the "not understood unknown" I leap.

 

[YmirGF]

Windwalker, I know that you are not asking me, but I love your question. "Struggles to find the light again," Those words are the kicker, because one is struggling to find something that is not lost. The light is understanding, the dark is the not understood unknown. When one steps out into the not understood unknown everything becomes dark. Overtime that section of the not understood unknown becomes understood and this understanding becomes light. Now if one would just stop there all would be well . But no one does not stop there, they step back out into another section of the not understood unknown and the dark returns until that section of the not understood unknown is understood and then the light returns. And each time the light returns one experiences a greater cognitive leap of understanding. Eventually it becomes a continuous "phase out, phase in" experience. And each time one "phases in" it is a bigger, "Whoa! Who knew?!" Eventually one begins to understand that the "phase out" dark stage is just an input and processing stage and it becomes no big deal. The light is not lost, it just seems to be before it gets "bigger" . The mystics and the yogis all say that the dark night or grey zone eventually permanently goes away. The truth is that it only goes away permanently when one decides that they have had or received enough and one quits stepping back out into the not understood unknown. I spend most of my time in the dark, because once the light is experienced it becomes old news and I want more . So back into the "not understood unknown" I leap.

I know this is not directed at me, but that never seems to stop me. The highlighted part got me exploring my own perspective on this. From my perspective "the light dawns" when one is no longer afraid of the unknown or what they do not know, since it has become patently obvious that that is the bulk of reality. From my stance, it is the fear of the unknown and not having everything sync up with our neatly ordered perspective that causes the "disconnect", if you will. The only solution, imho, is to keep digging and revel in your ever-unfolding experience. That seems to do the trick.

 

[mystic64]

I know this is not directed at me, but that never seems to stop me. The highlighted part got me exploring my own perspective on this. From my perspective "the light dawns" when one is no longer afraid of the unknown or what they do not know, since it has become patently obvious that that is the bulk of reality. From my stance, it is the fear of the unknown and not having everything sync up with our neatly ordered perspective that causes the "disconnect", if you will. The only solution, imho, is to keep digging and revel in your ever-unfolding experience. That seems to do the trick.

YmirGF my friend, your words have hit the nail on the head ! Based on my experience you definitely understand the mystic experience as I have experienced it anyway. And the trick as you have said is "persistance" inspite of everything.

So from there the question becomes, "Have I personally gone far enough into the mystic experience to be able to say that the "Dark night stuff" never truly goes away ? Yours, whether intended or not, is a subtle challenge that is an interesting question. You could be right about it being "the fear of the unknown and not having everything sync up with our neatly ordered perspective that causes the "disconnect"". ! From there the question becomes, "What happens when that fear no longer exists?" "Does the phase out, phase in quit being experienced and from there become a continuous phase in experience?" You seem to be saying that it does and I seem to be saying that it does not. And the problem with what I am saying is that you might be right . When I step into the unknown I experience a feeling of total helplessness, totally vulnerable, and totally powerless. And everything becomes the deepest darkest "black". And when that happens I know that I have arrived and that the next thing that I am going to experience (eventually) is a cognitive leap in understanding. Now, I have reached the point where I feel minimal fear, because I have done this so many times, even though it feals like the bottom of my stomach has dropped out. Sometimes this lasts for two or three days and durring this "phase out" time my nervous system is extremely lit. Some folks would probably lable me an adrenal junky, which I would agree with if it wasn't for the cognitive leap stuff that happens after this intense experience.

Fear? YmirGF, your statement that it is the fear that causes one to disconnect creates some interesting possibilities . If one could keep themselves in a high adrenal physiological state without experiencing the fear emotional state, would they then be able to stay in a constant state of phase in/a constant state of light dawning? And one would have to maintain the high adrenal physiological state without creating stress on the body. I expect that without there being any emotional fear attached to the experience that it could be done . YmirGF, you are a gift!

 

[mystic64]

How do you create and maintain a geometrically faster processor speed without burning out the computer? Most folks only use 10% of their brain's ability, which then means that one's whole brain as a neural net should be constantly "lit" instead of only parts of it being on at a time. The more "lit" the brain is as a neural net the faster the processing speed and the greater the RAM with zero damage to the computer. Humm ! Like Ram Das use to say, "We are made out of light." Well that is only true if things are turned on.

 

[YmirGF]

How do you create and maintain a geometrically faster processor speed without burning out the computer? Most folks only use 10% of their brain's ability, which then means that one's whole brain as a neural net should be constantly "lit" instead of only parts of it being on at a time. The more "lit" the brain is as a neural net the faster the processing speed and the greater the RAM with zero damage to the computer. Humm ! Like Ram Das use to say, "We are made out of light." Well that is only true if things are turned on.

Well, I have often said that what I am is far more interesting than who I am. Rum Dum was good for his time, I'll grant you that. I'll come back to your previous post when I return from the big island later today.... It will give me something to mull on the ferry trip.

 

[mystic64]

Well, I have often said that what I am is far more interesting than who I am. Rum Dum was good for his time, I'll grant you that. I'll come back to your previous post when I return from the big island later today.... It will give me something to mull on the ferry trip.

YmirGF, I look forward to your comments. There is a high probability that I will walk off different when I read them . But that is ok, I do not mind. It is all good.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

The only solution, imho, is to keep digging and revel in your ever-unfolding experience. That seems to do the trick.

Definitely. It's a journey of discovery.

 

[mystic64]

When I was a Christian, I was a very liberal, nondogmatic mystic with a New-Age God concept. I had several mystical experiences, which centered on union with God. I still think those experiences are valid and valuable. I also had one mind blowing experience that was not theistic at all that had to do with pure perception of consciousness and a trip through the universe. So, I'm now, and have always been a mystic at heart. I did not then, and do not now, have any use for dogma of any kind.

Here is the crossroads: I am now an atheist with pantheist leanings who finds Eastern mysticism appealing. I do non-theistic meditation, which is one way to reach mystic states. So in that sense, my basic spiritual makeup is unaltered: I'm still chasing mystic states. It has been recently pointed out to me that the "God" concept and related religious symbols and imageries are just that--imagery to be transcended; convenient shorthand for the indescribable; masks of the ineffable.

As I incorporate those ideas into my practice, I wonder if I can leave the God-baggage behind and truly be free of, or rather transcend theism in my efforts at mystical union.

So, I throw this open to the wisdom of the boards: Have you had a mystical experience? How do you incorporate that into your post-Christian worldview? General thoughts?

Orbit you create an interesting direction of condemplation with your OP statement ! Generally speaking mysticism is considered for the religious (otherwise one is just a psychic) because atheists as a general rule do not believe in the metaphysical. But at the sametime there is precedence for what you are doing. True self realization and what Buddha was originally teaching does not require a belief in a God or gods (theist). Both true self realization and what Buddha was originally teaching (which results in self realization) use the same mind processes to accomplish their goals as what the religious mystics use to accomplish their goals. The only difference is that with true self realization and what Buddha was originally teaching self is teaching you (bringing you into your higher self) instead of God or some other divine being. Now what is funny is that if one is a religious mystic, and they follow through with it, the first thing that they accomplish is "self realization" . Because you can not truly know God until you are "self realized". And from there you advance into God realization should you wish to. But you do not have to .

So Orbit, what you are doing is exploring self realization which is where everything starts whether you are a theist or not. And ultimately God becomes a bigger self but with the understanding that you are not God, you are just experiencing God or God is directly sharing what "It" is experiencing with you. But you have to become self realized first, otherwise you become God as absolute power which then will cause you to self destruct. True self realization takes you into a reality that is beyond power so that when you become God (experience God's experience directly) you escape the pitfalls of self destruction and can then go on to the higher states of being that sharing God's ("It's") experience will take you.

 

[mystic64]

Definitely. It's a journey of discovery.

It is all about hunting the "mini me" ! Because it is the "mini me" that takes you into true realization.

 

[YmirGF]

It is all about hunting the "mini me" ! Because it is the "mini me" that takes you into true realization.

That reminds me of my numerous Diablo 3 characters... LOL... The latest one, a hardcore wizard is called "Dynamoite".

 

[mystic64]

That reminds me of my numerous Diablo 3 characters... LOL... The latest one, a hardcore wizard is called "Dynamoite".

YmirGF, I don't seem to be able find him/her on the internet. Is he/she a video game character or are you writing a comic book?

 

[YmirGF]

YmirGF my friend, your words have hit the nail on the head ! Based on my experience you definitely understand the mystic experience as I have experienced it anyway. And the trick as you have said is "persistence" in spite of everything.

In short, the idea is not to get hung up on it when you see where your expectations do not meet up with reality. Simply observe and retool your approach. It is that simple, but doing so is often far more complex than one might expect. One quickly becomes enmeshed in "root assumptions" about reality and that is always pretty shaky ground.

So from there the question becomes, "Have I personally gone far enough into the mystic experience to be able to say that the "Dark night stuff" never truly goes away ? Yours, whether intended or not, is a subtle challenge that is an interesting question. You could be right about it being "the fear of the unknown and not having everything sync up with our neatly ordered perspective that causes the "disconnect"". ! From there the question becomes, "What happens when that fear no longer exists?" "Does the phase out, phase in quit being experienced and from there become a continuous phase in experience?" You seem to be saying that it does and I seem to be saying that it does not. And the problem with what I am saying is that you might be right .

I used to say I have no fears. In a sense that is correct, but I have now modified this to say that I have no unnatural fears. I would not, for example, take a walk through crocodile infested mashes or provoke a person with a violent history. Quite natural fears come into play there and those fears are quite healthy. Unnatural fears are debilitating and offer little benefit.

When I step into the unknown I experience a feeling of total helplessness, totally vulnerable, and totally powerless. And everything becomes the deepest darkest "black". And when that happens I know that I have arrived and that the next thing that I am going to experience (eventually) is a cognitive leap in understanding. Now, I have reached the point where I feel minimal fear, because I have done this so many times, even though it feels like the bottom of my stomach has dropped out. Sometimes this lasts for two or three days and during this "phase out" time my nervous system is extremely lit. Some folks would probably label me an adrenal junky, which I would agree with if it wasn't for the cognitive leap stuff that happens after this intense experience.

It sounds like you could also have an odd trigger system working that precipitates these episodes of cognitive hop-scotch. That said, I don't get that "total helplessness, totally vulnerable, and totally powerless" aspect at all. Perhaps I am too much of an optimist and have learned from my own bouts with depression. The last time I vowed that depression would never woo me back into its complacent somnambulance.

Fear? YmirGF, your statement that it is the fear that causes one to disconnect creates some interesting possibilities . If one could keep themselves in a high adrenal physiological state without experiencing the fear emotional state, would they then be able to stay in a constant state of phase in/a constant state of light dawning? And one would have to maintain the high adrenal physiological state without creating stress on the body. I expect that without there being any emotional fear attached to the experience that it could be done . YmirGF, you are a gift!

Again, natural fear is good and healthy. Unnatural fear(s) are killers. Recognizing the difference is incredibly helpful. Psychologically, be wary of the belief that the mountains require valleys to be appreciated. That is a setup for more time in the valleys. Move to plateaus instead.........

 

[mystic64]

YmirGF you are very advanced at this stuff.

quote YmirGF:
'It sounds like you could also have an odd trigger system working that precipitates these episodes of cognitive hop-scotch. That said, I don't get that "total helplessness, totally vulnerable, and totally powerless" aspect at all. Perhaps I am too much of an optimist and have learned from my own bouts with depression. The last time I vowed that depression would never woo me back into its complacent somnambulance.'

Humm ? First of all I would like to say that I completely understand what it is that you are saying as a whole because I have been through the same processes that you are talking about. And I would like to add that your approach to things is extremely valid. Now with that said the question comes up relative to the post that I have quoted, "Are you more advanced that I am and if so how do I wish to respond to that ? My first inclination is to be defensive which then means that you are presenting to me a fear that I do not want to deal with. And that fear would be my fear of participating in life. You YmirGF do not have that fear because you have overcome it or never had it to begin with. And I haven't decided if that fear is a valid fear or not because that fear keeps me deeply implanted in the heart of the "unknown" as a mystic.

And the feelings of total helplessness, totally vulnerable, and totally powerless are the adrenal engines that power that fear. They are also the foundation fear for all fears, be they valid or invalid fears. They are the fear(s) that are buried deep in the subconscious/the automated part of the mind and they are labled "Not to be explored or you will die." The fear of powerlessness/totally vulnerable is the fear that when faced or even approached causes one to prefer death over life. And it is the fear that when faced or even approached causes one to experience in an automated sense adrenal overload which then causes one's body and mind to shut down without permission from the conscious mind. I live in the mind world of the altimate fear and I am still functional. Well sort of . But I do not expect others to do this or even to attempt to do this because it is extremely dangerous if someone does not have the advanced yogi experience that enables one to keep their body's life centers neural nets on/activated inspite of the automated part of the mind attempting to shut them down. And that mind state takes one deep into the "unknown" because that mind state is scarier than the "unknown". And one day I will overcome the altimate fear, relative to human programming anyway, and it will have no power over me ever again. Or I won't because I will always use it as an engine to power me into the deep "unknown". I haven't gotten far enough to know how that is going to go. In the mean time the way that you are doing it is the best way to do it and the way that others should follow if they are into exploring the mystic experience. My way , not so much.