For Atheist Mystics

[Rick O'Shez]

It is all about hunting the "mini me" ! Because it is the "mini me" that takes you into true realization.

 

[Windwalker]

I used to say I have no fears. In a sense that is correct, but I have now modified this to say that I have no unnatural fears. I would not, for example, take a walk through crocodile infested mashes or provoke a person with a violent history. Quite natural fears come into play there and those fears are quite healthy. Unnatural fears are debilitating and offer little benefit.

I'd like to clarify something in your own experiences. When you say you have had no fears (other than normal survival instinct fear), are you saying in meditation practices you never faced any fears whatsoever? When I hear people say this I think to myself they have not yet opened the door to the sense of their own self-annihilation. I muse like Yoda responding to Luke Skywalker saying, "I'm not afraid", by saying, "You will be.... you will be". It is in fact perfectly natural as you peel back the layers of the onion to experience fear. Why shouldn't it be? After all, each peeling back, each layer of the false self falling away is a death experience. When someone face that sense of letting oneself go into the Abyss, there is a natural self-preservation that kicks in, and that response is to see the faces of fear standing at death's door. But the mystic meets those demons and "defeats" them through clarity and calm. But one has to learn that, and can only learn that by an actual encounter of that fear itself.

I question when someone says they've never experienced a dark night, or a face of fear standing before them, if they are perhaps bypassing their own path to full liberation? How can we be free if we don't face what is there?

Again, natural fear is good and healthy. Unnatural fear(s) are killers. Recognizing the difference is incredibly helpful. Psychologically, be wary of the belief that the mountains require valleys to be appreciated. That is a setup for more time in the valleys. Move to plateaus instead.........

I would say be wary of saying we should ignore what is in fact really there and needs to be dealt with. The psychological terms for that are repression and suppression. I would agree one should not wallow in the valleys as in some sort of fixation or obsession, constantly licking wounds, but to say "I refuse to look at it or go there," does not sound healthy to me. There is a necessity to go there, but you go there in order to deal with and become truly liberated from it. To avoid it, to refuse or deny its reality there, is itself an act of fear masking itself as an escape to enlightenment.

One does not overcome the devil by denying and bypassing it, but rather by passing through it, owning, and transforming it. "Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall not fear". Going around it is giving into fear.

 

[YmirGF]

I'd like to clarify something in your own experiences. When you say you have had no fears (other than normal survival instinct fear), are you saying in meditation practices you never faced any fears whatsoever?

Never is an awfully long time, WindyOne, but to the best of my recollection in this life, no, I've not felt any kind of fear or anything even approaching fear in meditation.

When I hear people say this I think to myself they have not yet opened the door to the sense of their own self-annihilation.

I have never subscribed to the notion of self-annihilation, Windwalker... well, not in this lifetime, at least. I did go through a radical transformation of what I understood self to be however. In a nanosecond my whole world was turned upside down and I didn't really have time to become fearful about it. In a heartbeat I found that ideas about self-annihilation are a ruse based on a very limited understanding of what self actually is. As stated elsewhere, WHAT I was and understood myself to be was far more entertaining and interesting that WHO I was. I suppose appreciating and reveling in the what helped me get over the brief ripple of rupturing my limited ideas of self and personality. Due to common misconceptions about Oneness, that affect the novice, answering the who was a bit troubling and admittedly it did take awhile to get over that... but no, I never had much fear about the whole thing. I can see how people might develop a fear about this because their root assumptions about reality are so thoroughly transformed, but personally, it barely phased me because I was not locked in any dogmatic thinking prior to the event.

I muse like Yoda responding to Luke Skywalker saying, "I'm not afraid", by saying, "You will be.... you will be". It is in fact perfectly natural as you peel back the layers of the onion to experience fear. Why shouldn't it be? After all, each peeling back, each layer of the false self falling away is a death experience. When someone face that sense of letting oneself go into the Abyss, there is a natural self-preservation that kicks in, and that response is to see the faces of fear standing at death's door. But the mystic meets those demons and "defeats" them through clarity and calm. But one has to learn that, and can only learn that by an actual encounter of that fear itself.

You are making this sound terribly tedious. I will grant that if one has highly complex ideas as to the nature of reality one could spend a great deal of time peeling those illusory layers back. That process could become daunting, to be sure. However, some experience all of this spontaneously, with little effort or expectation.

I question when someone says they've never experienced a dark night, or a face of fear standing before them, if they are perhaps bypassing their own path to full liberation? How can we be free if we don't face what is there?

I learned to face my fears head on. After the first series of little fears, I was able to move on and tackle the big ones as I began to understand that they were paper dragons of little consequence. I'm not saying they didn't seem very real, it's just that when you plunge through them, they evaporate rather rapidly. The experience is liberating in its own right.

I would say be wary of saying we should ignore what is in fact really there and needs to be dealt with.

And I wholeheartedly support that idea, Windy. It really depends on the baggage one is bringing into the mix, as it were. Some will have rough going, to be sure as it is not a path to choose to follow that does not have very real consequences.

The psychological terms for that are repression and suppression. I would agree one should not wallow in the valleys as in some sort of fixation or obsession, constantly licking wounds, but to say "I refuse to look at it or go there," does not sound healthy to me. There is a necessity to go there, but you go there in order to deal with and become truly liberated from it. To avoid it, to refuse or deny its reality there, is itself an act of fear masking itself as an escape to enlightenment.

You are reading a bit more into my comment that was intended. I was trying to highlight the idea that though the peaks and valleys give our experience great richness and texture, one should not get terribly hung up on the "lows" or the "highs". Expect them, but understand that they will not last forever, though they may certainly feel like they will never end.

One does not overcome the devil by denying and bypassing it, but rather by passing through it, owning, and transforming it. "Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall not fear". Going around it is giving into fear.

Haha. Indeed. That is actually what I was meaning by moving from plateau to plateau, in theory moving through the rough spots into the clear light of day. The thing is to keep moving and never stay too long in one area... unless you have good reason or want to rest....

 

[Windwalker]

I have never subscribed to the notion of self-annihilation, Windwalker... well, not in this lifetime, at least. I did go through a radical transformation of what I understood self to be however. In a nanosecond my whole world was turned upside down and I didn't really have time to become fearful about it. In a heartbeat I found that ideas about self-annihilation are a ruse based on a very limited understanding of what self actually is.

Well, yes, an abrupt peak experience of liberation is freeing to be sure. It may or may not be proceeded by a moment of fear/terror. My first major peak experience happened following a moment of sheer utter terror, consciously facing my own annihilation, facing my death, literally. Within that Release there was nothing put Pure Emptiness, Infinite timelessness, the radiance of utter Love and Compassion in a moment of pure timelessness. There was no fear within it whatsoever. The second peak experience followed a week later, and it was abrupt and instantaneous like a lightening bolt without any fear preceding it. This experience different in form than the first which was pure Light in a moment of timeless Infinity. The 2nd was Satchitananda. It was pure nondual awareness where every molecule of air, every blade of grace, every color in everything became pure radiant light within all, from all and to all. And that Light radiating out from everything was pure Life, Love, Joy, uninhibited, free, ever-presence, effortless. And that Light, that Radiance welled up from within an unimaginable depth inside me, and came flowing out into an exchange of Light and Love and Life, a dance of Life itself in radiant beauty. Fear had no home anywhere. Fear was non-existent.

But what I am talking about is, that despite that Knowledge of "what is", the true nature of Reality itself, the return path home is, and is not, as simple as a flip of the switch. It is no longer a case of waiting around for that lightning bolt to blow the ceiling off our small realities, our self-contracted realities we live within. It is a very deliberate and intentional path of return to that Source, to the Ground wherein is our own Supreme Identity. In conscious effort of transformation there is in fact a whole lot of clinging we continue to do, as we live in that self-contracted separation from that Infinite within us. In order to realize it, we have to face that separate self, again and again. Deeper and deeper, more and more subtle clinging that we do lies beneath our own conscious awareness. Each time we encounter it is does in fact become easier to recognize, and easier to let go of, easier to meet that fear with calmness and grace, accepting it and transforming its energies into Light.

I understand Plateau experiences, which are really just prolonged states of peak experiences, sometimes lasting hours, days, months, years, or possibly permanently. But anytime there is growth, there is death, and there is the death experience with necessarily presents itself as fear. A plateau experience is not arriving at the potentials of growth, it's actually stepping off of it, resting in that freedom. But I believe the two need to go hand in hand, that Freedom releases one from fear of the unknown and the subsequent self-contraction. We face the devil at each door as we die out to the self we identify with at each stage of growth. And that self is still present even with knowledge of Self. It is that dual nature of our Divine Identity and our Unique Identity. And it is the latter, the individual in the world, the Incarnation Self, the Unique Self, that is one on a path of growth, a series of death and resurrections at each stage of growth to full Enlightenment. Not just a Release into the Infinite, but a growth into the Infinite as well. The fully realized Human, the nondual, God in the world. The flesh faces death and dies, again, and again, and reborn again and again.

I'll pause with these thoughts here and return to this later.

 

[Typist]

When we eat an apple, do we expect it to cure our hunger forever? When we take a nap do we expect a radical transformation in our daily energy levels? When we have sex do we expect to transcend horniness? When we breathe do we reach for an end to the need for air?

Silly, right? Instead of such sillyness, we approach most of the needs of our existence in a straightforward common sense manner. When we're hungry we eat, when tired we sleep, when horny we have sex. Simple. No guru required.

But when it comes to thought, just another process of the body, for some reason we may turn it in to a sublime, sophisticated, complicated, esoteric subject requiring experts and a dizzying map of paths up the glorious mountain to becoming this, becoming that, becoming, becoming, becoming more, more and more, yada, yada, yada, etc etc etc.

Why? Why ruin an apple by trying to turn it in to something complicated and esoteric? Why not just eat an apple, and enjoy it, and be happy with that? Sure, we'll have to eat again soon. So what? Another chance to enjoy!

What is it about simple mental silence that you guys find so unsatisfying that you feel compelled to whip it up in to all this?

 

[Windwalker]

Why? Why ruin an apple by trying to turn it in to something complicated and esoteric? Why not just eat an apple, and enjoy it, and be happy with that? Sure, we'll have to eat again soon. So what? Another chance to enjoy!

Why not just be an infant and never grow up? Because, self-awareness adds a fuller dimension to life. Is the experience of the world the same for a monkey as it is for a human? Yes, and no. At the essential self, stopping the stream and experiencing reality before the all the debris of mental realities, is in fact very important and necessary to do. BUT, that is not the fullness of human experience! No, it is not. It is the Freedom from the pitfalls of becoming exclusively embedded within the mental worlds of reality. Indeed, this is true. But to enjoy the beauty of the world, seen through and experienced through the human creature, you MUST have the mind involved. There is a difference between Freedom and Fullness. Fullness is depth. It is expansive Knowledge.

Is it necessary to make maps of the terrain of the human psyche on a path towards this fulness of being? Yes! It is. Enlightenment is not anti-rational. But at the same token, it transcends the rational itself, as the old saying goes, the map of the terrain is not the terrain itself. But understanding these things in order to talk about them is in fact part of the human experience. To exclude them, to deny them, runs the risk of being a Rhetoric Romantic, naively believing in a Paradise Lost, a mythic world where we will all be one when we jettison advanced knowledge in favor the of the myth of the Nobel Savage. That is of course a myth. That reality never existed. We cannot blind ourselves in order to find God. We have to have our eyes fully opened, as self-aware, intelligent beings. But realizing it take more than just rationality to realize God.

What is it about simple mental silence that you guys find so unsatisfying that you feel compelled to whip it up in to all this?

I don't find it unsatisfying at all! I find it however only 1/2 the picture. We are meant to be awake, not in blissful slumber within the Ocean.

 

[YmirGF]

Well, yes, an abrupt peak experience of liberation is freeing to be sure. It may or may not be proceeded by a moment of fear/terror. My first major peak experience happened following a moment of sheer utter terror, consciously facing my own annihilation, facing my death, literally. Within that Release there was nothing put Pure Emptiness, Infinite timelessness, the radiance of utter Love and Compassion in a moment of pure timelessness. There was no fear within it whatsoever. The second peak experience followed a week later, and it was abrupt and instantaneous like a lightening bolt without any fear preceding it. This experience different in form than the first which was pure Light in a moment of timeless Infinity. The 2nd was Satchitananda. It was pure nondual awareness where every molecule of air, every blade of grace, every color in everything became pure radiant light within all, from all and to all. And that Light radiating out from everything was pure Life, Love, Joy, uninhibited, free, ever-presence, effortless. And that Light, that Radiance welled up from within an unimaginable depth inside me, and came flowing out into an exchange of Light and Love and Life, a dance of Life itself in radiant beauty. Fear had no home anywhere. Fear was non-existent.

But what I am talking about is, that despite that Knowledge of "what is", the true nature of Reality itself, the return path home is, and is not, as simple as a flip of the switch. It is no longer a case of waiting around for that lightning bolt to blow the ceiling off our small realities, our self-contracted realities we live within. It is a very deliberate and intentional path of return to that Source, to the Ground wherein is our own Supreme Identity. In conscious effort of transformation there is in fact a whole lot of clinging we continue to do, as we live in that self-contracted separation from that Infinite within us. In order to realize it, we have to face that separate self, again and again. Deeper and deeper, more and more subtle clinging that we do lies beneath our own conscious awareness. Each time we encounter it is does in fact become easier to recognize, and easier to let go of, easier to meet that fear with calmness and grace, accepting it and transforming its energies into Light.

I understand Plateau experiences, which are really just prolonged states of peak experiences, sometimes lasting hours, days, months, years, or possibly permanently. But anytime there is growth, there is death, and there is the death experience with necessarily presents itself as fear. A plateau experience is not arriving at the potentials of growth, it's actually stepping off of it, resting in that freedom. But I believe the two need to go hand in hand, that Freedom releases one from fear of the unknown and the subsequent self-contraction. We face the devil at each door as we die out to the self we identify with at each stage of growth. And that self is still present even with knowledge of Self. It is that dual nature of our Divine Identity and our Unique Identity. And it is the latter, the individual in the world, the Incarnation Self, the Unique Self, that is one on a path of growth, a series of death and resurrections at each stage of growth to full Enlightenment. Not just a Release into the Infinite, but a growth into the Infinite as well. The fully realized Human, the nondual, God in the world. The flesh faces death and dies, again, and again, and reborn again and again.

I'll pause with these thoughts here and return to this later.

It is posts like this that have made me one of your greatest admirers on RF, WindyOne. In reality, I don't think we actually disagree, I am just more glib about it.
The highlighted part is pretty much my experience. After awhile, one gets used to letting go...

 

[Typist]

Why not just be an infant and never grow up?

Why not just make peace with being a normal human being? Wouldn't that be growing up?

Because, self-awareness adds a fuller dimension to life. Is the experience of the world the same for a monkey as it is for a human? Yes, and no. At the essential self, stopping the stream and experiencing reality before the all the debris of mental realities, is in fact very important and necessary to do. BUT, that is not the fullness of human experience! No, it is not. It is the Freedom from the pitfalls of becoming exclusively embedded within the mental worlds of reality. Indeed, this is true. But to enjoy the beauty of the world, seen through and experienced through the human creature, you MUST have the mind involved. There is a difference between Freedom and Fullness. Fullness is depth. It is expansive Knowledge.

Yes, I understand, you want to sell us yet another glorious becoming future trip, just like the consumer culture salesman. Buy this esoteric philosophical soap, and your mental clothes can be brighter, whiter, cleaner!!

But if we sat down on the path where ever we currently are, and focused on enjoying that place just as it already is, we wouldn't have to climb the mountain at all.

We can't be happy until we get a new car, or a new house, or a new job, or a new mate, or a this, or a that, or enlightenment, or a thousand other things everybody is trying to tell us we really need, because we're so wrong, wrong, wrong the way we already are.

All this stuff that's being typed here, just another way to put off making peace with where we already are. Just another greedy grabby future trip, the very thing that got us in to trouble in the first place. A continuation of the same old pattern, posing as something gloriously new and different.

 

[YmirGF]

What is it about simple mental silence that you guys find so unsatisfying that you feel compelled to whip it up in to all this?

The reality is that we are rather complex beings with a nature that transcends the world we see, know and love. To pretend otherwise is... unhelpful.

 

[Typist]

The reality is that we are rather complex beings with a nature that transcends the world we see, know and love. To pretend otherwise is... unhelpful.

It is philosophers of various flavors who wish to declare us complicated, so that they may play the role of experts. Far more people can be served by looking at this simply.

Thought is inherently divisive. So the more we think, the more we feel divided. Taking breaks from thought helps manage the situation.

Three simple sentences.

We do it just this simply with all other processes of the body.

When hungry, we eat.

When tired, we sleep.

When horny, we have sex.

When noisy inside, we take a little break from thinking.

Philosophers hate simplicity, cause it puts them out of a job.

 

[YmirGF]

It is philosophers of various flavors who wish to declare us complicated, so that they may play the role of experts. Far more people can be served by looking at this simply.

Thought is inherently divisive. So the more we think, the more we feel divided. Taking breaks from thought helps manage the situation.

Three simple sentences.

We do it just this simply with all other processes of the body.

When hungry, we eat.

When tired, we sleep.

When horny, we have sex.

When noisy inside, we take a little break from thinking.

Philosophers hate simplicity, cause it puts them out of a job.

There is a rather larger difference between philosophical navel gazing and verbalizing ones internal experience first hand.

I am one of the lucky ones who can turn off my internal dialogue at will. I don't even need to think about it anymore, lol.
The downside to silence is that if no one says a word very little will be gained. Perhaps the ensuing confusion is better than mindless fermenting.

 

[mystic64]

Guys this is fun ! We now have the three classic approaches now that Typist has entered this discussion. My approach is basically the same as Windwalker's, but I do accept the possible validity of YmirGF's approach. But for me, it is just that I do not want to do it that way because his way leads to participating in life and I do not want to participate in life . Or maybe that is a fear that I do not want to give up for whatever reason valid or not valid (I can make a strong argument for both valid and not valid)?

Personally, I think that Typist is mixing medaphors with his first post and that he is totally missing the point with his second post. But at the sametime Typist does represent the third classic approach to exploring the mystic experience. Which basically is that the whole thing is "silly". And I don't know, what proof do we have that Typist and his kind are wrong ? As a shaman I could probably prove to him that he is wrong (an advanced yogi mystic does learn these things), but as a yogi mystic seeking the "yoked to God" experience, I can not provide any external proof. Which is probably because I haven't gotten far enough because I am still tainted a bit with the desire to explore personal power. And I am also caught between two worlds, Lord Shiva is my father and my yogi teacher and Lord Jesus is my Savior and Christ. I do not have any problem yoking to Lord Shiva at any level, but yoking to the Father of Lord Jesus that art in Heaven, not so much .

And then along comes Typist, "The whole thing is silly!" Well, I can prove to him that the shaman stuff is real, but I am not going to do that because I am a Christian.

If I was an atheist mystic I would be mighty , but I am not an atheist mystic, I am a Christian yogi mystic and mightyness is extremely in the wrong direction. My computer says that messages have been posted sense I have loaded this page and I can't wait to see what you guys are talking about! this topic has gotten fun.

 

[mystic64]

There is a rather larger difference between philosophical navel gazing and verbalizing ones internal experience first hand.

I am one of the lucky ones who can turn off my internal dialogue at will. I don't even need to think about it anymore, lol.
The downside to silence is that if no one says a word very little will be gained. Perhaps the ensuing confusion is better than mindless fermenting.

YmirGF you amaze me. You just do! I admit that I can not do what you can do. I can speculated the possibility of it and I am working on it, but I can not do it.

"Perhaps the ensuing confusion is better than mindless fermenting." Ah man ! On the surface it would appear that you have created an oxymoron. "The down side of silence is that if no one says a word very little will be gained." I agree with that. But, the word that one says should not create confusion. To me that is the trick, and the reason why when I am successful at it, most nolonger want to talk to me . Ensuing confussion "and" mindless fermenting is where the fun is at. Clearity and understanding, not so much.

I do not know YmirGF, I want to interact with Typist, but he is creating interesting conflict and interesting conflict sells newspapers. So in this case me being silent and enjoying your interaction with him might be more productive. But the down side of "silence" it that it is absolutely no fun ! Not to mention that activity is the life of a message board and that posting credits are "cool!". I like you YmirGF and I think that you are more advanced than I am. Am I mindless fermenting (my mother always claimed that I was a "yakker") or am I creating ensuing confusion by not being silent?

 

[Windwalker]

Why not just make peace with being a normal human being? Wouldn't that be growing up?

What is a normal human being? For you to even make such a statement, you have a mental model in mind. So much for escaping this. It's just what happens when anyone, including you, run into when you use any words. If you just wish to sit at the end of a dock and nod together with me at the sunset, that's one thing. But once you use words, you're talking about things by way of definitions, and by ways of maps.

So what is "normal"? The opposite of abnormal? Is being a five year old normal? Yes. Is being a 25 year old normal? Yes. Is being a five year old and a twenty five year old the same thing? No.

Let me somewhat agree with you here, with qualifications. When I meditate and see beyond the self-contracted state (which BTW, is "normal"), I realize that what this does is to make me "normal". You realize what you were before was not-normal at all! So right there there is a contrast between "normal" for the self-contacted self-reflective exclusive ego identity, and "normal" as awakened human. So which "normal" are you talking about?

Furthermore, we in fact do grow up, and even as adults we continue to mature. So "waking up" is itself not the same as growing up. We can "wake up" to being a normal human at 25 years of age. And we can wake up to be a "normal" human at 55 years of age. Obviously there was some growing up that happened between the two stages of development.

Yes, I understand, you want to sell us yet another glorious becoming future trip, just like the consumer culture salesman. Buy this esoteric philosophical soap, and your mental clothes can be brighter, whiter, cleaner!!

Don't be foolish. I am not selling anything and I find it interesting you feel a need to be insulting to me because I hold a different perspective on these things than you do.

Let me lay it as simply as I can. If you view things in absolutist terms, then in order to shake someone loose of that perception of reality, which is what in fact it is, it becomes necessary to point out that things are in fact considerably less absolutistic that what that person wishes others to accept. In other words, it's only complex when the world is perceived in black and white terms. But to me, I see the world in vastly more nuanced shades of interconnecting wholes, rising and falling in a complex web. From a "God's eye" view, this "complexity" is actually simplicity itself! However, from an absolutistic point of view, it is seens as garble, garble, garble, yada, yada, yada, and so forth.

It really isn't complex, once it is realized. But prior to that, it's mind boggling, sort of like realizing we're all made of strings and floating on a rock orbit a star in a vast, vast sea of stars. Once upon a time, that was seen as "yada, yada, yada", too.

But if we sat down on the path where ever we currently are, and focused on enjoying that place just as it already is, we wouldn't have to climb the mountain at all.

Again, while I completely agree with this, this is only one half the picture, not the whole picture.

Let me tell you what I see here. You are in essence adopting the Theravada Buddhist approach of the 1st great Axial age, which says we should seek to flee Samarasa and find Nirvana as fast as we can; flee illusion and cleave the Absolute. This is what is known as the path of ascension, to leave the relative world and find Peace in Emptiness, in the absolute. That is what you are being rather dogmatic about, deriding another point of view without truly understanding it.

What came after this historically was the nondual schools, beginning with Nagarjuna in the East, and Plotinus in the West. They realized, through experience, not theory, that there is something beyond Emptiness. Beyond Nirvana. And that was Emptiness in form. Emptiness is seen as none other that form, and form is none other than Emptiness. The Absolute and the relative are not separate! This is where Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism comes in.

Then, in time a few centuries later was born the Tantric path, which teaches that you can find Emptiness through the experience of form. To enter fully into the world, realizes the Emptiness that is in all things. Now, if you wish to try to understand me, when you look at me, you are hearing me speaking from nondual realizations in the world of form, engaging in the world of form to find that inherent Freedom and Fullness, as inseparable from each other.

Enter now Western Enlightenment where we understand developmental patterns. This reflects the reality of the relative plane of reality. To understand the world of form with the mind, coupled with the experience of form in a tantric, nondual practice, offers a stupendous, wondrous unfolding of the Ultimate in the Relative. It is not just resting in Emptiness, nor immersing oneself in analytic thought, but dancing through the world of form with the body, with the mind, with the soul. You are trying to say I'm all about "thoughts". That is grossly mistaken!

We can't be happy until we get a new car, or a new house, or a new job, or a new mate, or a this, or a that, or enlightenment, or a thousand other things everybody is trying to tell us we really need, because we're so wrong, wrong, wrong the way we already are.

No, there's nothing "wrong" with the way you are. You should find fullness at each stage of the game. But you make a mistake that that is the end game. It is not! Evolution. In a word. The world unfolds, we unfold. And finding that, which includes a knowledge of the world of form, is in fact part of that beautiful unfolding. How much or how little of that you want is your choice. You're not "wrong" to be content with little, nor are other wrong for desiring more.

Let me give an analogy. Just this afternoon I was on a walk down a trail and saw flowers blooming. Emptiness, Spirit, God, whatever you want to call it, is absolutely the same at each stage of that flower's being. As it is a seed in the ground, Emptiness is the same. As it is a seedling, Emptiness is the same. As it begins to open, Emptiness is the same. As it unfolds to the sun, Emptiness is the same. It touches each stage of its development. And the fullness of the flower, is not it's emptiness, but its form. It's experience of Emptiness is "greater" in itself, the fuller its form. This is the nondual.

What you propose says, well, what? Become a seed?

All this stuff that's being typed here, just another way to put off making peace with where we already are. Just another greedy grabby future trip, the very thing that got us in to trouble in the first place. A continuation of the same old pattern, posing as something gloriously new and different.

I hope some of what I shared about helps your understanding of these things. Everything you say above, does not pertain to what I am saying.

 

[mystic64]

What is a normal human being? For you to even make such a statement, you have a mental model in mind. So much for escaping this. It's just what happens when anyone, including you, run into when you use any words. If you just wish to sit at the end of a dock and nod together with me at the sunset, that's one thing. But once you use words, you're talking about things by way of definitions, and by ways of maps.

So what is "normal"? The opposite of abnormal? Is being a five year old normal? Yes. Is being a 25 year old normal? Yes. Is being a five year old and a twenty five year old the same thing? No.

Let me somewhat agree with you here, with qualifications. When I meditate and see beyond the self-contracted state (which BTW, is "normal"), I realize that what this does is to make me "normal". You realize what you were before was not-normal at all! So right there there is a contrast between "normal" for the self-contacted self-reflective exclusive ego identity, and "normal" as awakened human. So which "normal" are you talking about?

Furthermore, we in fact do grow up, and even as adults we continue to mature. So "waking up" is itself not the same as growing up. We can "wake up" to being a normal human at 25 years of age. And we can wake up to be a "normal" human at 55 years of age. Obviously there was some growing up that happened between the two stages of development.


Don't be foolish. I am not selling anything and I find it interesting you feel a need to be insulting to me because I hold a different perspective on these things than you do.

Let me lay it as simply as I can. If you view things in absolutist terms, then in order to shake someone loose of that perception of reality, which is what in fact it is, it becomes necessary to point out that things are in fact considerably less absolutistic that what that person wishes others to accept. In other words, it's only complex when the world is perceived in black and white terms. But to me, I see the world in vastly more nuanced shades of interconnecting wholes, rising and falling in a complex web. From a "God's eye" view, this "complexity" is actually simplicity itself! However, from an absolutistic point of view, it is seens as garble, garble, garble, yada, yada, yada, and so forth.

It really isn't complex, once it is realized. But prior to that, it's mind boggling, sort of like realizing we're all made of strings and floating on a rock orbit a star in a vast, vast sea of stars. Once upon a time, that was seen as "yada, yada, yada", too.


Again, while I completely agree with this, this is only one half the picture, not the whole picture.

Let me tell you what I see here. You are in essence adopting the Theravada Buddhist approach of the 1st great Axial age, which says we should seek to flee Samarasa and find Nirvana as fast as we can; flee illusion and cleave the Absolute. This is what is known as the path of ascension, to leave the relative world and find Peace in Emptiness, in the absolute. That is what you are being rather dogmatic about, deriding another point of view without truly understanding it.

What came after this historically was the nondual schools, beginning with Nagarjuna in the East, and Plotinus in the West. They realized, through experience, not theory, that there is something beyond Emptiness. Beyond Nirvana. And that was Emptiness in form. Emptiness is seen as none other that form, and form is none other than Emptiness. The Absolute and the relative are not separate! This is where Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism comes in.

Then, in time a few centuries later was born the Tantric path, which teaches that you can find Emptiness through the experience of form. To enter fully into the world, realizes the Emptiness that is in all things. Now, if you wish to try to understand me, when you look at me, you are hearing me speaking from nondual realizations in the world of form, engaging in the world of form to find that inherent Freedom and Fullness, as inseparable from each other.

Enter now Western Enlightenment where we understand developmental patterns. This reflects the reality of the relative plane of reality. To understand the world of form with the mind, coupled with the experience of form in a tantric, nondual practice, offers a stupendous, wondrous unfolding of the Ultimate in the Relative. It is not just resting in Emptiness, nor immersing oneself in analytic thought, but dancing through the world of form with the body, with the mind, with the soul. You are trying to say I'm all about "thoughts". That is grossly mistaken!


No, there's nothing "wrong" with the way you are. You should find fullness at each stage of the game. But you make a mistake that that is the end game. It is not! Evolution. In a word. The world unfolds, we unfold. And finding that, which includes a knowledge of the world of form, is in fact part of that beautiful unfolding. How much or how little of that you want is your choice. You're not "wrong" to be content with little, nor are other wrong for desiring more.

Let me give an analogy. Just this afternoon I was on a walk down a trail and saw flowers blooming. Emptiness, Spirit, God, whatever you want to call it, is absolutely the same at each stage of that flower's being. As it is a seed in the ground, Emptiness is the same. As it is a seedling, Emptiness is the same. As it begins to open, Emptiness is the same. As it unfolds to the sun, Emptiness is the same. It touches each stage of its development. And the fullness of the flower, is not it's emptiness, but its form. It's experience of Emptiness is "greater" in itself, the fuller its form. This is the nondual.

What you propose says, well, what? Become a seed?


I hope some of what I shared about helps your understanding of these things. Everything you say above, does not pertain to what I am saying.

Well YmirGF that was clarity! WindWalker I love you! I am sorry about the emotional display, but I can not be silent about it. What most folks do not understand is that emptiness does not mean "empty". And Buddha's goal because of his compassion was to show folks how to move from the world of suffering into the world of non-suffering in the physical plane through knowledge and understanding. Sharing the world/reality that was beyond that was not actually his goal, even though he actually understood it and achieved it. No longer any suffering in this world because one no longer makes the choices that lead to/result in suffering. And a part of that message was to forget about the gods and godesses because they are a part of what leads to suffering in this world.

So typist in essence, words not so much, is right. Just make the right choices and you do not need the mystic experience or the gods and goddesses to step out of the reality of suffering in this world. And nirvana is just the ability to create and maintain the chemicals in the brain that give one the feeling of pleasure. And that is just a simple yogi trick that anyone can do with a little bit of practice.

 

[Typist]

I am one of the lucky ones who can turn off my internal dialogue at will.

Ha, ha, ha!! LOL! Yes, you've transcended ego for sure, that's clear enough.

See? All this fancy pants becoming becoming becoming climb the glorious mountain talk, it's mostly just another way to inflate our egos, to feel special, play the role of expert etc.

 

[Windwalker]

Well YmirGF that was clarity! WindWalker I love you! I am sorry about the emotional display, but I can not be silent about it. What most folks do not understand is that emptiness does not mean "empty".

Agree, it's a common misunderstanding. It can be described simply as "potential", I suppose. It itself is not a "thing", not an "it" even, but simply everything in no-thing. Not the sum total of everything as in pantheism, but as Zen calls it, the "Is'ness" of everything. I agree. It's the wetness of every wave, the same in each wave, the same in each molecule of water, hence the same in each and all form. It "itself' is not "a form" but the "Is'ness" of all form. It is the paper on which the world is drawn. The paper is not the drawing, yet is the condition of the drawing. And so forth. Emptiness is not a void or a blank. It is the foundation of all manifestation.

And Buddha's goal because of his compassion was to show folks how to move from the world of suffering into the world of non-suffering in the physical plane through knowledge and understanding. Sharing the world/reality that was beyond that was not actually his goal, even though he actually understood it and achieved it.

I make a point to avoid language like "attain" or "achieve" enlightenment. I have strong reasons why I do I'll just share here for your benefit. As Emptiness is the Ground of all Being, it is nothing that one can look for and find as a thing laying around out there somewhere. So in ourselves, Enlightenment is not a thing one achieves. It is the condition of our very being. It is the paper on which we are drawn, and thus not separate from us. Enlightenment is rather the state of Realization of what and who we truly are, the condition of our own self that has been there from the beginning. It has never been anywhere but right here. It is the realization of the "terribly obvious!", hidden in plain sight.

Think of it in terms of looking for your eyes you are looking out through. "Where are my eyes?," we asks looking here and looking there, not realizing the terribly obvious that we are seeing to see that which is doing the seeing! One can no more achieve or attain enlightenment that you can achieve your lungs! It's who you already have always been! But this does not mean you are enlightened, simply by being "normal" and living your life asleep to this fact. Enlightenment is actually seeing it and realizing it. Not living your live asleep, living an illusion, a dream state of the unreal - which BTW, is what is "normal" to most people. When you awaken to who you are, then you see the rest, "normal' reality is an illusion.

What "normal" is to most I think is wonderfully expressed by Plotinus, "But humanity, in reality, is poised midway between gods and beasts, and inclines now to the one order, now to the other; some men grow like to the divine, others to the brute, the greater number stand neutral." The "greater number" is what is called being "normal".

No longer any suffering in this world because one no longer makes the choices that lead to/result in suffering. And a part of that message was to forget about the gods and godesses because they are a part of what leads to suffering in this world.

If they are sought in such a way as it leads to the illusion of the separate self, and clung to in fear, then yes they lead to suffering. As Alan Watts wonderfully said about the Christian church, they "Kicked Jesus upstairs". This "Kicking Jesus upstairs" creates this division of "up there" and "down here". But if these gods are seen as a way to realize your own divine nature, then they are not creating suffering, but liberation from suffering. They aide one in their own Realization. In this sense they are guides, Gurus, dispelling darkness and revealing light to who we are - just like them!

So typist in essence, words not so much, is right. Just make the right choices and you do not need the mystic experience or the gods and goddesses to step out of the reality of suffering in this world.

He is right in certain ways, and I agree within that context, but that understanding is not THE understanding. To absolutize it, creates duality. But as far as mystical experience, I do think it is necessary in order to see well clear enough in order to make good choices. You have to have perspective on yourself and the world, and mystical states allows one the space and clarity to see this, where simply "thinking about it", does not, nor can. I won't go too far into that here, but I believe I did talk about that on the RF's Radio Blog program this week, or last week. I'm not sure where the recording of that is, but you should listen to those if you haven't. Orbit, WellNamed, and myself were interviewed by DreadFish. I had a good time doing that and we talking about things like this, to some degree.

And nirvana is just the ability to create and maintain the chemicals in the brain that give one the feeling of pleasure. And that is just a simple yogi trick that anyone can do with a little bit of practice.

That I do not agree with. But I will say this, that actually Enlightenment is not the end of the road. It's the beginning. I like to say, Enlightenment is the easy part, growth is the hard part. Put another way, "states are free, stages are earned".

 

[Windwalker]

See? All this fancy pants becoming becoming becoming climb the glorious mountain talk, it's mostly just another way to inflate our egos, to feel special, play the role of expert etc.

In reality, it's not. It's interesting you perceive it this way. Why is that? Why such hostility on your part?

BTW, I have never ever said one climbs the mountain to enlightenment. Never. Read my post before this one.

 

[Typist]

But at the same time Typist does represent the third classic approach to exploring the mystic experience. Which basically is that the whole thing is "silly".

I'm content to be simply offering an alternative, but only if I can do so with melodramatic typoholic language infused with bombastic fantasy superiority. I can be silly too you know.

I don't think what you other fellows are discussing is all completely wrong, but I do think you're talking about some tiny tiny fragment of the human experience, in order to make yourselves feel special.

It's not evil or anything, but it's impractical in the extreme, because the vast majority of human beings are never going to get what you're discussing, and by making it all sound so very esoteric, you're making it even less likely that they will.

Where does the problem lie?

If we think the fundamental human problem lies in the content of thought, then it's logical to create all kinds of philosophies in the search for the correct thought content. That's what's happening here, and in most of religion.

If we see that the problem arises not from the content of thought, but from the inherently divisive nature of thought itself, the door is opened to something much simpler.

There's no longer much point to an endless philosophical investigation, because whatever philosophy we come up with will be made of the same inherently divisive medium as any other philosophy. That's why all ideologies lead to conflict, as they are all made of the same inherently divisive medium.

So what then?

The philosopher's overheated mind starts searching for some sublime, complex, sophisticated solution, and thus misses the wonderous simplicity of this.

We can't get rid of thought. All we can do is manage it.

This is the very same situation as we face with all the other processes of the human body!

We can't end hunger, we can only eat one meal at a time as needed. It's not sagely to run off looking for a permanent solution to hunger. It's wiser to eat the next meal and enjoy it, and make peace with the need to eat.

It's become heresy to say this in New Age type conversations, but teaching simple meditation exercises has the power to help far more people than any esoteric sermon ever can, mine included.

If our goal is to help heal human wounds, and not just inflate our own self importance, simple, simple, simple is the "one true way".

 

[Typist]

You are in essence adopting the Theravada Buddhist approach of the 1st great Axial age, which says we should seek to flee Samarasa and find Nirvana as fast as we can; flee illusion and cleave the Absolute.

No my friend, I'm saying if our mind is too noisy, why not give it a rest?

I have no interest in Nirvana at all, except to be on a typoholic holy jihad against it. Nirvana is just yet another glorious glamorous becoming future trip like all the others. Chasing such things is the very reason we can't be content with simple things in the here and now, as we're always so very busy racing off to someplace else.