For Atheist Mystics

[YmirGF]

Ha, ha, ha!! LOL! Yes, you've transcended ego for sure, that's clear enough.

Hehe. Folks sure have strange ideas about what stopping the internal dialogue entails.

See? All this fancy pants becoming becoming becoming climb the glorious mountain talk, it's mostly just another way to inflate our egos, to feel special, play the role of expert etc.

You seem to be quite opinionated for someone enjoying the silence.

 

[YmirGF]

That I do not agree with. But I will say this, that actually Enlightenment is not the end of the road. It's the beginning. I like to say, Enlightenment is the easy part, growth is the hard part. Put another way, "states are free, stages are earned".

Agreed. So-called "enlightenment" is the easy part. Growing past the concepts is where one has to get their hands dirty.

 

[Windwalker]

No my friend, I'm saying if our mind is too noisy, why not give it a rest?

But giving it a rest is the beginning of awareness. As you appear to know, most people are completely unaware just how much chatter is going on inside their heads until they actually begin to look inside it trying to still the noise. It's a bloody rock concert in there as the "normal" state. But quieting the mind is just the beginning. What is opens you to is deeper and deeper levels of awareness, opening the subconscious mind, opening into the Ground of Being itself which is ever-present within us as who we are before and beyond all the noise of discursive thought.

I have no interest in Nirvana at all, except to be on a typoholic holy jihad against it. Nirvana is just yet another glorious glamorous becoming future trip like all the others. Chasing such things is the very reason we can't be content with simple things in the here and now, as we're always so very busy racing off to someplace else.

You are right in some ways, but are far too one-sided, and apparently absolutist in your understanding. Yes, to seek after Nirvana can itself be an avoidance of release. As someone fairly well down the road of understanding the nature of these things, through experience, it is the seeking mind we need to get rid of. I understand that very well. But it is not the same thing as "do nothing" and be apathetic. We seek, to not seek. We make and effort at "no effort". We learn to unlearn, and so forth. That is not just sitting around, eating, drinking, and whatever the hell without any mind towards liberation of oneself. That would be a gross misunderstanding of these very real and true principles, which I have learned from active experience with them.

There is the hair's-width line between seeking and not seeking. Nirvana, or Emptiness, is not something you can find, as it has already found you. All you have to do is "let it be". But believe me, there are depths to this state of Being itself that are unfathomable. You should seek to not find something "out there", but to know what you are. That does require some intention and perseverance, to be sure. But again, it's not an achievement or an attainment. It's learning to unlearn what you normally do to attain something. You cannot attain Enlightenment, as it is the condition of your being. But you do in fact need to realize it. And how do you suppose that happens?

Again, I feel your hostility and quickness to judge without really understanding what is being said here is curious. Are you sure you have found the Answer yourself?

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I don't think what you other fellows are discussing is all completely wrong, but I do think you're talking about some tiny tiny fragment of the human experience, in order to make yourselves feel special.
It's not evil or anything, but it's impractical in the extreme, because the vast majority of human beings are never going to get what you're discussing, and by making it all sound so very esoteric, you're making it even less likely that they will.

So, what is a person who has a "mystical" experience--and I stress EXPERIENCE, not a mystical thought, or a mystical philosophy, or a mystical outlook; I mean an EXPERIENCE--supposed to do? Are they supposed to not talk about it among other people who have also had similar experiences, where some people who have not had a similar experience might see and hear it, because those people won't understand what they are trying to say?

Having had several "mystical" experiences in my life, I still struggle to find ways to put them into words--and ALWAYS fall miserably short. It's not because I don't have the vocabulary--I've got a plenty large set of words in this brain of mine, and I know how to use them, but the reality is that none of them can communicate the EXPERIENCE, no matter how hard I try. Making it sound "esoteric" (not exactly sure what you mean by this term) may be because that kind of language is the only words that even begin to come close to being accurate in describing the experience. People who have had a similar experience understand, those who haven't think people who have are being "superior" or "special." Not the way it is at all, sorry.

Do many people have experiences like this? I don't think so; it doesn't mean they can't, and doesn't mean they wouldn't if they would practice meditation and other disciplines--but if they are busy enjoying living, even if they really are in the moment of experiencing it, they may not get this kind of experience out of it. I may have been lucky in that one of my experiences occurred without conscious preparation or effort,while just going about my daily activities. But it's entirely possible that many people have this kind of experience, and force the memory away, hide it from themselves, turn up the volume on the inner dialog so they won't have to think about it, because it can be terrifying, or merely unsettling, if one isn't trying to prepare themselves.

Does that mean those who do have experiences of this sort should hide it away, not discuss it because it isn't a common experience? I don't think that is a good thing either. And, this thread is in the Mysticism DIR, so one should expect people to be discussing something "mystical."

 

[Typist]

So, what is a person who has a "mystical" experience--and I stress EXPERIENCE, not a mystical thought, or a mystical philosophy, or a mystical outlook; I mean an EXPERIENCE--supposed to do?

Well, for oneself, returning to the experience and focusing on that seems a sensible thing to do. This is the logical decision if one feels the value is found in the experience itself, and not in explanations of the experience. This may sound esoteric to some, but it's really no different than saying the real value is found in the food we eat, and not in our description of the meal.

As for helping others, what is the primary obstacle to such experience? It's thought. Not incorrect thoughts. Any thoughts. It's the retreat from the real world in to the symbol realm. So if one wishes to share something, providing simple instructions on how to turn down the volume of thought might be useful.

Explanations of our experiences are not evil but what so often happens, as readers can see for themselves in this thread and a million others, is that the explanations can easily become yet another ego drug that some find irresistible. Just another way to build up a self flattering personal identity.

It's just like the pitches on TV which promise we can be rich and famous if only we buy some product. We used to chase rich and famous, and now we are chasing enlightenment and all that etc. It's all this chasing that distracts us from where the real value is, in the here and now real world.

What to do about the explanations? Just skip them, they do more harm than good. The value is in the experience.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Well, for oneself, returning to the experience and focusing on that seems a sensible thing to do. This is the logical decision if one feels the value is found in the experience itself, and not in explanations of the experience. This may sound esoteric to some, but it's really no different than saying the real value is found in the food we eat, and not in our description of the meal.

As for helping others, what is the primary obstacle to such experience? It's thought. Not incorrect thoughts. Any thoughts. It's the retreat from the real world in to the symbol realm. So if one wishes to share something, providing simple instructions on how to turn down the volume of thought might be useful.

Explanations of our experiences are not evil but what so often happens, as readers can see for themselves in this thread and a million others, is that the explanations can easily become yet another ego drug that some find irresistible. Just another way to build up a self flattering personal identity.

It's just like the pitches on TV which promise we can be rich and famous if only we buy some product. We used to chase rich and famous, and now we are chasing enlightenment and all that etc. It's all this chasing that distracts us from where the real value is, in the here and now real world.

What to do about the explanations? Just skip them, they do more harm than good. The value is in the experience.

So, people who have experiences that they find potentially valuable to themselves, should just shut up and not talk to anyone else about it? That really sounds like what you're saying.

It is also a logical thing to discuss experiences--of any sort--with other people, who may have other perspectives and valuable insights. Sure, most of what humans think about their experiences is rubbish, but if I hadn't talked to someone else about my first experience, and someone hadn't taught me some meditation techniques that were appropriate, I might not have had some of my other 'esoteric" experiences. And, after discussing experiences with others with similar experiences, I am quite capable of deciding what parts of their thoughts are worthwhile for me, and discard the rest. As can anyone else who hears them.

I suppose that we should also not allow people who have very high IQs and very low IQs to communicate either, because it distracts average people from their average experiences, and makes them think that others might be different from themselves....

 

[Windwalker]

As for helping others, what is the primary obstacle to such experience? It's thought. Not incorrect thoughts. Any thoughts. It's the retreat from the real world in to the symbol realm. So if one wishes to share something, providing simple instructions on how to turn down the volume of thought might be useful.

I'll be hurtfully truthful here. What appears to me in your rhetoric is that you have had a moment's clarity of truth and have made it to be The Answer, with a capital A. You take a truth, and it is that to be sure, but you make it Absolute Truth, and any other light from another that varies from your personal discovery is "wrong", driven by ego, or what other "devil" face you wish to plaster upon it uncritically. This is, to be clear, the earmark of absolutistic, fundamentalist thinking. I'll be gracious and say that it is a "habit", a carry over from your earlier belief system, whatever that may have been. Christian, perhaps?

Explanations of our experiences are not evil but what so often happens, as readers can see for themselves in this thread and a million others, is that the explanations can easily become yet another ego drug that some find irresistible. Just another way to build up a self flattering personal identity.

When I hear this from you against those in this thread who offer their years of insights and experiences, including myself, what I am hearing blaring like a trumpet in the middle of the night, is projection. You are demonizing others with your own demon. I am quite well aware of my own motivations, as is the Mighty Mouse in his own path, where our egos are a factor in our own awareness. I know when it rears its head, and I know when I hear it rearing its face in others. I smile politely as I hear your loud protests, hearing the famous Shakespeare quote, "Methinks that lady doth protest too loudly!". You might wish to wear your assuredness a tad more lightly as you cast stones at others.

It's just like the pitches on TV which promise we can be rich and famous if only we buy some product. We used to chase rich and famous, and now we are chasing enlightenment and all that etc. It's all this chasing that distracts us from where the real value is, in the here and now real world.

Says the man in battle with himself?

What to do about the explanations? Just skip them, they do more harm than good. The value is in the experience.

I would suggest you take a good step back and continue your path of self-knowledge. It's clear to me you are too anxious to have a corner on truth for yourself.

 

[psychoslice]

Yes I have had a mystical experience where I was one with all there is, to the Op, what you wrote could have been my story as well, very simular.

 

[Typist]

So, people who have experiences that they find potentially valuable to themselves, should just shut up and not talk to anyone else about it? That really sounds like what you're saying.

Simple technical information regarding how to lower the volume of thought, thus opening the door to new experiences, good.

Elaborate never ending explanations of experiences outside of thought are an argument with themselves, opening the door to all the usual products of thought, division internally, conflict externally, ego inflation, self delusion of various forms, power trips, chasing the future instead of focusing on the here and now, and all the rest.

All these so very many explanations are really an implied claim that the experience itself is not enough, which imho, is not true.

The same thing happens in Christianity, and most religions. The towering facade of so many Christian beliefs is really a way of saying the experience of love isn't enough, which again imho, is not true.

and someone hadn't taught me some meditation techniques that were appropriate, I might not have had some of my other 'esoteric" experiences.

I'm all for this, but as you might observe, we rarely discuss such practical matters here, apparently because they aren't considered "advanced" enough.

And, after discussing experiences with others with similar experiences, I am quite capable of deciding what parts of their thoughts are worthwhile for me, and discard the rest. As can anyone else who hears them.

Ok, fair enough. No one need pay any attention to me, I'm fine with that. I'm just trying to contribute to the conversation by making the case for the value of the experience itself, a value I propose does not depend on explanations. Imho, explanations are entertainment, and so long as they are viewed in that way I have no complaint. It's not the explanations that are the issue so much, as our relationship with them.

I suppose that we should also not allow people who have very high IQs and very low IQs to communicate either, because it distracts average people from their average experiences, and makes them think that others might be different from themselves....

Focusing on what might work for the vast majority of regular people who aren't fancy philosophers and never will be takes the focus off of us and our enlightenment, our progress, our evolution, our development etc etc.

I've been having these discussions for years and am sad to report New Age type communities really really hate shifting the focus off of themselves and their own personal situation, which is usually treated as all important.

I say, not so important, get over yourself, which wins me many friends, much applause, and Party Pooper Of The Year award.

 

[Windwalker]

I want to inject some thoughts to this absolutistic line of argument which falsely claims others are missing the point, that they are "New Age", "fancy philosophers", and other such uninformed clap trap. Is sitting in silence sufficient? Yes, and no. Yes, in that you will not find that Ultimate Peace state by trying to find it through philosophy, elaborate models, and all of that stuff. We 100% agree. No argument. You will not find the Absolute through philosophy. Agreed.

But is that the end of the story? No. Why? Because we are humans. Humans have needs that must be addressed before you can "find God", so to speak. Even though the Infinite is ever-present, not apart from you, and is the very core and essence of who you are which can be seen, tasted, and experience through turning off the ever-churning thought machine (again, no argument against that), if the individual does not have the supporting structures in place in order to do that, it collapses. For instance, if you had to spend your entire day foraging the ground to find enough food to live to the next day, all the while running from predators seeking to kill you, you are in fact not going to be able to pull our your meditation matt and practice Zazen! Ain't gonna happen.

So right there, Silence is not sufficient to the need of basic human survival. And that's just one tiny example. Add to that things like physical and mental health needs. These have to be addressed and supported as well in order for the whole person to emerge. If you have diseased mind, entering into Silence will be not only fraught with difficulties, it may actually be extremely detrimental to the person's mind and body! The WHOLE person needs to be integrated, body (which included safety and economic and social needs as well as proper health and nutrition), mind (which includes psychological, cognitive, emotional, and cultural needs), soul (knowledge of the essential individual self before and beyond all social, cultural, and ego self-identifications), and spirit (knowledge of the interconnection of the self in all that is).

To ignore all that, to call that "New Age", or philosophy is brazenly ignorant. It is what I would call Ignorant Idealism. No one is saying you will "find God" by spending your day analyzing or trying to understand the valuable models of human needs and development. They are in fact not necessary to know in order to find God. But they are necessary to address the things they point out! You cannot meditate if you are dead. It's that simple. The condition of human needs goes hand in hand with a spiritual path. They are not separable. Spirituality is an holistic reality as a human being. There is interaction between the spheres of the human reality, where body helps mind, helps soul, helps spirit, and spirit helps soul, helps mind, helps body. We are not removed from being human when we are in touch with God.

If there is anything in what I have said that is not essentially accurate, I want to hear specific points and explanations of how it is unnecessary, or in even a detriment to spiritual pursuits. If someone looks to them for Answers? Yes, that would be, but I consider that a dysfunctional abuse of them. It is not the purpose, role, or function to inform you about the nature of Spirit. You must actually open to that, in Silence. But to just say, "That's all you need and nothing more", is naive and itself a potential danger to spirituality. You have to have a vessel in which to know Spirit first. And to go further, to develop the mind and body to further know Spirit. The knowledge of Spirit between a squirrel and a human, though it is the same Taste, is not the same fullness of experience because the vessel of mind is able to span much more in the reality in which the body lives.

I would really appreciate and respect actual dialog over actual specific points as opposed to what amounts to little more so far than religious stone throwing without any actual substantive counter points. Can that be done? No one is disagreeing with the basic truth that Silence reveals Spirit. I am strongly disagreeing with the naive idealism that says there is nothing more to the path. As long as we are in the body, there is.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I say, not so important, get over yourself, which wins me many friends, much applause, and Party Pooper Of The Year award.

Which seems to be what's feeding your ego right now... You seem to be pretty proud of how long and hard and futilely you've been trying to undermine everyone else's beliefs in order to replace them with yours.

What I hear you saying is that you are rejecting the possibility that there might actually be something important that goes beyond the experience of the here-and-now.

Elsewhere, you have talked about the need to critically examine basic beliefs; I suggest that you may need to examine yours again. Be assured, I have and continue to examine my basic beliefs--I understand what has led me to believe as I do. I also understand that because of my experiences, I believe that there might be something beyond the experience of the here and now. I certainly don't know what that something is, and I may be entirely wrong--for example, that this kind of experience is simply an illusion in itself. But having had the experience, and having had contact with others who have had similar experiences, I cautiously take that as evidence that there is more to this life than our normal both painful and pleasurable experiences of living.

Now then, that your experiences and reflections have led you to a different place than me, I have no quarrel with. I do appreciate your point of view, and it is causing me to re-examine my beliefs. And, I do recognize the truth in some of what you say, but as the Windy One has observed, yours is not the only truth, and it may not be a complete truth, either. I make no claim that my experience or beliefs should hold for anyone else, but I am willing to discuss them--in part because discussion and learning and thinking are all enjoyable experiences, or can be, and frankly, I'd rather do these things sometimes than the other things that I must fill my day with. I also seek clarity, an understanding of my experiences, an understanding of the world I live in and experience. To NOT examine these things, to not seek clarity, would make living-in-the-moment less enjoyable. For me. Others' results may vary.

So, really, you want a how-to on meditation, and that's all we should discuss on this DIR? There may be threads on this site that provide just such information; I have never looked for it. There are books and websites and videos galore that provide this information as well. At best, I find all these second-hand sources little more than a general pointer in a direction. I made the most progress in meditation when I had someone who was experienced in it there to answer questions and discuss the experiences as they came up. But frankly, it's up to the individual to find the way for themselves. The same as any other learning.

 

[YmirGF]

I nominate posts 70 and 71 for the RF best posts of the week award.

To add my two devalued Canadian cents to the mix, I will concur with Windwalker in that no one in their right mind would seek to minimize the value of personal experience, of quietly reveling in the silence, as it is that wonderful silence that acts as a doorway to non-dual experience. Non-dual experience is a hard nut to crack for any budding speaker simply because it does not readily lend itself to verbal expressions. That is something that more knowledgeable sots are profoundly aware of as they struggle to point at this larger area of experience without distorting more than is necessary. It is an unrelenting battle to be honest. I think it remarkable that many of us can have these discussions, as if comparing notes of our impressions of visiting Niagra Falls. No words can really capture the experience, but to see us nodding and understanding what the other is saying -- is nothing short of wonderful -- and is a testament to the fact that discussions of non-dual reality can happen even though it is understood that the words fall well short of their mark because folks understand that the words are simply tokens or placeholders for that which is often well beyond words.

That said, I have said in the past that novices should follow my own path that I took for literally decades. After my initial evangelical period, if you will, that landed with a dull thud, this silly human animal began to understand that he didn't really know what he was talking about anyways and that perhaps silence was the best mode of conduct. It certainly made my life easier and I found other human animals were quite willing to forgive and quickly forget my insistence to BE HERE NOW... often to their bewildered gaze as they wondered where else, exactly, they ought to be. I digress. So, in short, during the early stages of cognition, it is perhaps better to keep it to oneself. It's certainly less hassle and you tend to look a little less foolish because of it. But inside accumulate and digest the experience. Revel in the experience and the ever-unfolding nature of the game you find yourself in. Again, as I have said before, the experience of non-duality does not automatically confer an ability to express oneself clearly. If one was not a particularly lucid speaker/ thinker prior to the event there is no reason to expect that mode of operation to change after the event. It's only after years of navel gazing and being honest with yourself that you might find your voice and discover you can articulate difficult concepts due to the wealth of experience you have accumulated in this particular type of endeavor.... after you have been through more than a few of your own "dark nights of the soul". Then you might actually be able to help others with their plight.

Likewise, as beenherebeforeagain said, it is essential for individuals to critically examine their beliefs and ideas. This is an ongoing process. Never fall for the dogmatic thinking that you have "THE ANSWER", simply put, because no one does... For example, I find my doubt to be one of my greatest tools that furthers my growth. Complacency is almost anathema to me. That does not mean I don't have some, what I call "foundation class ideas". What it means is that those foundation class ideas have survived the ravages of time and seem to be on quite solid footing.

One of my first posts on RF was about this very thing and though it is a bit sloppily written it does flesh out a method to analyze beliefs quite well.

The mind of a child | ReligiousForums.com

And that's my slightly devalued two Canadian cents worth...

 

[lovemuffin]

No one is disagreeing with the basic truth that Silence reveals Spirit.

I apologize in advance for not really contributing to this discussion, but instead just being led away by symbolism, but: Silence. Logos. Spirit. It is the Trinity.

In these symbols which are hard to reduce to a set of fixed concepts for me, is the entire human life. To add to your point, we speak and think and reason also (logos) because we are also that Logos, along with Silence and Spirit. The three are like constitutive poles of one be-ing, inseparable and each dwelling within the other, in a dynamic and non-dual dance that generates reality.

 

[Windwalker]

I nominate posts 70 and 71 for the RF best posts of the week award.

Does this mean we finally get the coveted Golden Buddha award?

Likewise, as beenherebeforeagain said, it is essential for individuals to critically examine their beliefs and ideas. This is an ongoing process. Never fall for the dogmatic thinking that you have "THE ANSWER", simply put, because no one does...

Exactly. Beliefs and ideas, philosophies and sciences, models and maps, are all useful when understood as structural supports. Structural supports are in fact necessary in order to be able to integrate what one is exposed to in Spirit. To just sit on the mountain in absorptive states of bliss, is not living life! It is escape from life. But Silence, when swum within, has to inform the here and the now, the practical blood and bones reality of human life. That is what these belief structures are for. Without any worldview whatsoever, you would be a useless human being. You would have turned your back on the world of others as you ascended the mountain of your own bliss, and vanished into the clouds of human uselessness.

But the key to belief structures, philosophies, maps of reality, worldviews, etc, is when they are recognized as interpretive support structures. They are ways of interpreting and relating to experience, and NOT replacements for experience, or that experience must absolutely bow to them as The Truth! in themselves. The key is to hold them lightly, to allow them to grow and change, or be dropped and replaced if and when necessary. This is not to say they are worthless because they are not absolutes, but that they are rather useful and necessary within relative contexts. It's understanding the relative nature of them that is the beginning of Wisdom.

For example, I find my doubt to be one of my greatest tools that furthers my growth. Complacency is almost anathema to me. That does not mean I don't have some, what I call "foundation class ideas". What it means is that those foundation class ideas have survived the ravages of time and seem to be on quite solid footing.

Good maps are useful. That they prove out useful over time is good, a testimony to their accuracy of the terrain. But you and I understand them as only maps of the territory, and not the territory itself. A picture of the ocean, has no wetness.

And that's my slightly devalued two Canadian cents worth...

It's nice to see I'm not the only one who has grown on my path.

 

[Windwalker]

I apologize in advance for not really contributing to this discussion, but instead just being led away by symbolism, but: Silence. Logos. Spirit. It is the Trinity.

In these symbols which are hard to reduce to a set of fixed concepts for me, is the entire human life. To add to your point, we speak and think and reason also (logos) because we are also that Logos, along with Silence and Spirit. The three are like constitutive poles of one be-ing, inseparable and each dwelling within the other, in a dynamic and non-dual dance that generates reality.

Yes, I would agree with this. The Trinity, when understood as a Dynamism this way is a good representation of this reality of ours. Evolution is Spirit in motion, creating form within each moment to moment, unfolding itself in a path of return from the One to the Many, and from the Many to the One.

 

[mystic64]

Well guys here is where things now get tricky for me as one who is in the midst of a group of some wise folks, because I am likely to make a fool of myself . Arrgg.

First I would like to say that I agree with everybody because everybody is right in their own way. But, that philosophical direction does not lead to activity and posting credits.

And I would like to thank Typist for givimg me permission to interact with him/her directly.

Now with all of that said, part of the gift of being a mystic is the development of algorithms that enable one to cause the intuitive mind to work for them in a gifted predictable way. And the foundation concept of the word "mystic" is the receiving of information from an unknown source. Which in its purest sense is what is generally thought of as the "intuitive mind". Which can work for everybody be they theist or atheist or neither. The next thing that is interesting about being a mystic is the increase in the sensitivity of one empathic abilities. Truly experiencing the "emptiness" in a direct way connects one empathicly to all things. And this empathic connection is where your information comes from. Mind to mind/feelings to feelings. And one's only limitation is one's ability to deal with the information. Which basically means that information that frightens you, for any reason, is of no use to you because it has to be discarded. Which then creates a reality where the intuitive mind has a crippled quality to it because it can not be honest with you. Your fears limit its honesty. Which then means that it will lie to you because you do not want to hear cetain things. So it will tell you what you want to hear.

Typist you are using the intuitive mind to be at play and you are enjoying the advantage that it gives you . Now, what you are not aware is that your fears are limiting the intuitive mind's ability to work for you and that one who has less fear than you do can use your connection to the intuitive mind against you. Well guys, we are now entering into a reality where we can prove to Typist that the mystic experience is real and that it can lead to some interesting gifts .

 

[Windwalker]

Well guys, we are now entering into a reality where we can prove to Typist that the mystic experience is real and that it can lead to some interesting gifts .

I would definitely say my intuitive sense is considerably more a part of my lived reality now, sort of like having an extra functional limb. The thing that one has to be mindful of is to not use it as weapon against another. That it provides insights is useful, but it should be towards doing good, not for selfish reason, like hurting those who hurt you. It's like using a developed intellect as a weapon. The minute you start operating out of ego, is the minute you lose it.

 

[Typist]

You will not find the Absolute through philosophy. Agreed..

Who are you agreeing with? From this corner, I said nothing about finding the Absolute as best I recall.

Humans have needs that must be addressed before you can "find God", so to speak.

Why would we need to "find God" anyway? Wouldn't a God be capable of finding us? Seriously, not being sarcastic.

What's up with all this effort from us, thinking we have to do this or that to go here or there? Isn't this "walking the path" way of looking at things just another way to exaggerate our importance, make us the hero at the center of the story etc?

Even though the Infinite is ever-present, not apart from you, and is the very core and essence of who you are which can be seen, tasted, and experience through turning off the ever-churning thought machine (again, no argument against that), if the individual does not have the supporting structures in place in order to do that, it collapses.

What collapses? The hero story?

So right there, Silence is not sufficient to the need of basic human survival.

Ok, but um, who said it was?

The WHOLE person needs to be integrated, body (which included safety and economic and social needs as well as proper health and nutrition), mind (which includes psychological, cognitive, emotional, and cultural needs), soul (knowledge of the essential individual self before and beyond all social, cultural, and ego self-identifications), and spirit (knowledge of the interconnection of the self in all that is).

This big laundry list of demands is only necessary if we're trying to go somewhere. Why are we trying to go somewhere?

You cannot meditate if you are dead. It's that simple.

I'm baffled as to what you think you are arguing against here. Who said anything about ignoring the needs of the body etc?

The condition of human needs goes hand in hand with a spiritual path.

Why are we on a path? Sooner or later we're going to have to make peace with who we already are, why not just go ahead and do it now, and stop putting it off with all this path business?

If there is anything in what I have said that is not essentially accurate, I want to hear specific points and explanations of how it is unnecessary, or in even a detriment to spiritual pursuits.

You seem intent on us pursuing something or another. Why not just be happy with what we already have? Wouldn't that be easier than all this chasing, and pursuing, and path climbing etc?

I propose all this path climbing is just another way to put off the moment of looking in the mirror and accepting what we see. It's just another way of rejecting who we already are. We feel small inside, and so we're trying to make ourselves feel big by chasing the ultimate glorious Big Thing and so on.

Why not just be small? There's nothing wrong with being small, imperfect, flawed.

If our imperfectness makes us a little nutty, we can always take a little rest from the nutty machine. If we get hungry, we can always eat some pizza. If we get tired, we can always take a nap. If we get horny, well, readers will just have to figure that out for themselves.

What's the big problem? Why do we need to be rushing up the glorious holy mountain and all that? What's wrong with being here where we already are?

Sooner or later we're going to have to say where we already are is good enough. Why not do it now? Why wait?

You must actually open to that, in Silence. But to just say, "That's all you need and nothing more", is naive and itself a potential danger to spirituality.

There is no danger to spirituality. Even if we ignore that subject entirely, we'll all be dead in what will seem about 3 weeks from now, and then whatever is going to happen will happen, and whoever is running the show will do whatever it is they do. We aren't driving the bus, and so are free to relax, look out the window and enjoy the ride.

To state or imply that there's a big bunch of stuff we need to do to make all this happen is just a lack of faith, that's all. It's just another way to put ourselves at the center of the hero story, to make ourselves seem important to ourselves.

I would really appreciate and respect actual dialog over actual specific points as opposed to what amounts to little more so far than religious stone throwing without any actual substantive counter points. Can that be done?

You liked my posts so long as I was flattering your hero story, but now that I'm challenging that story you feel under attack.

If you weren't so busy building a little story fort higher and higher, there'd be nothing for anyone to attack, and nothing for you to have to defend.

All these explanations of the experience aren't a strength, but a weakness, a big load of heavy baggage we're dragging around behind us everywhere we go. We don't need all this baggage, we can just let go of it and walk away, nothing bad will happen.

Just trying to put that option on the table, that's all.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I nominate posts 70 and 71 for the RF best posts of the week award.

Why thank you! I'll try not to let it go to my head!

 

[Typist]

What I hear you saying is that you are rejecting the possibility that there might actually be something important that goes beyond the experience of the here-and-now.

My bad for sloppy writing in giving you that impression.

I'm suggesting instead that whatever the something important might be, it's likely found in the real world, not the symbolic world. A religious person might ask, do we want God, or the word "God"?

Say we are sitting across the table from our friend. In our lap we have a book about our friend. To the degree we have our nose in the book, we are ignoring the real living friend who is right there. And so I'm suggesting, put the book away. Simple, right?

Thought isn't the path to whatever the something important might be, it's the obstacle. If that's seen, then all the fancy philosophies lose their importance, and it's not really my fault if all the fancy philosophers hate this prospect.

Elsewhere, you have talked about the need to critically examine basic beliefs; I suggest that you may need to examine yours again.

If beliefs aren't important, if they're only symbols and never the real thing, why bother examining them? Why not examine the real world instead, isn't that where you feel the something important might be?

Why read this post, why look in a book, when the real world is all around you everywhere you go every minute of your life? It couldn't possibly be more available, right?

I also understand that because of my experiences, I believe that there might be something beyond the experience of the here and now.

Yes, because of your experiences. It's the eating of the apple that is nourishing you, not the word "apple" or a book about apples. The apple would nourish you just as well if you didn't know what to call it.

To NOT examine these things, to not seek clarity, would make living-in-the-moment less enjoyable. For me. Others' results may vary.

What is clarity? It is a symbol in our heads which we hope accurately represents the real world. But no symbol can do that.

We think the human condition we are trying to deal with arises from the content of thought, and thus we try to address it on that level by finding the correct explanation, the best philosophy, clarity etc.

As we see here in this thread, this quest to find the correct thoughts leads to endless centuries of conflict which never resolves anything.

The reason all this effort never resolves anything is that the problem does not arise from the content of thought, but from something deeper, the nature of thought.

Thought is inherently divisive in nature, that's how it works. Thus, anything made of thought will be inherently divisive. You and I are made of thought, that's why we experience reality as being divided between "me" and "everything else", the source of most personal and social problems.

Make all the philosophies and explanations you want, you'll never find the right one, because every philosophy is made of thought, the very thing causing the problem we are trying to solve.