For Christians ... a question I've had for a long time

[37818]

Since I do not believe there is any original sin to be saved from, I do not hold that belief.

The "original sin" was the cause for mankind to be sinful. Mankind are sinful do to there own sins. Romans 5:12-13, Deuteronomy 24:16.

You said that the bodily resurrection is considered an essential teaching of Christ, but it is NOT even a teaching of Christ!

John 5:19, ". . . Jesus and said unto them, . . ."
John 5:28-29, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
As per Revelation 20:11-15. Revelation 21:7-8.

 

[Nivek001]

I did not quote the verses before, you are right. I just assumed you knew them. I always tell myself, "Don't assume" and here I am doing it.
I cited them above. There are more of course, but I didn't want to swamp you.
Thanks for the reminder.

“Sons of God.” Or, “godlike ones.” Heb., benehʹ ʼElo·himʹ; T, “the bands of angels”; See LXX, “my angels.”

Translations
Different source versions of Genesis 6:1–4 vary in their use of "sons of God". Some manuscripts of the Septuagint have emendations to read "sons of God" as "angels". Codex Vaticanus contains "angels" originally. In Codex Alexandrinus "sons of God" has been omitted and replaced by "angels". This reading of Angels is further confirmed by Augustine in his work City of God where he speaks of both variants in book 15 chapter 23. The Pe****ta reads "sons of God". Furthermore the Vulgate goes for the literal filii Dei meaning Sons of God. Most modern translations of Christian bibles retain this whereas Jewish ones tend to deviate to such as Sons of Rulers which may in part be down to the Curse of Simeon Ben Yohai who cursed anyone who translated this as "Sons of God" (Genesis Rabbah 26:7).

Beyond this in both the Codices Job 1:6 and Deuteronomy 32:8 when the phrase "angels of God" is used in place of where the Hebrew says "sons of God". For the verse in Deuteronomy the Masoretic Text does not say "sons of God" but "sons of Israel" however in 4Q37 the term "sons of God" is used. This is probably the root reading for the reading we see in the Septuagint.


Thank you. I'll do that now.
I like the fact that you want to use the scriptures.
That's way better than just stating things as though they are actually "Gospel".

The spirits in prison are angels.
(Luke 8:30, 31) 30 Jesus asked him: “What is your name?” He said: “Legion,” for many demons had entered into him. 31 And they kept pleading with him not to order them to go away into the abyss.

(2 Peter 2:4) Certainly God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned, but threw them into Tartarus, putting them in chains of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment.

(Revelation 20:1, 2) 1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 He seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1,000 years.

The spirit in fleshly creatures returns to God.
(Ecclesiastes 12:5-7) 5 . . . man is walking to his lasting house and the mourners walk about in the street; 6 before the silver cord is removed, and the golden bowl is crushed, and the jar at the spring is broken, and the waterwheel for the cistern is crushed. 7 Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it.

It does not roam anywhere, nor is it an entity that can be put in prison.
◄ 7307. ruach ►
Strong's Concordance
ruach: breath, wind, spirit
Original Word: רוּחַ
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: ruach
Phonetic Spelling: (roo'-akh)
Definition: breath, wind, spirit

(Job 27:3) As long as my breath is within me And [רוּחַ ruach] spirit from God is in my nostrils,
Job 27:3 Parallel: All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

(Job 34:14, 15) 14 If he fixes his attention on them, If he gathers their [רוּחַ ruach] spirit and breath to himself, 15 All humans would perish together, And mankind would return to the dust.
Job 34:14 Parallel: If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
Job 34:15 Parallel: All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

(Psalm 104:29) When you hide your face, they are disturbed. If you take away their [רוּחַ ruach] spirit, they die and return to the dust.
Psalm 104:29 Parallel: Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

(Psalm 104:30) If you send out your [רוּחַ ruach] spirit, they are created,. . .
Psalm 104:30 Parallel: Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

(Isaiah 42:5) This is what the true God, Jehovah, says, The Creator of the heavens and the Grand One who stretched them out, The One who spread out the earth and its produce, The One who gives breath to the people on it And [רוּחַ ruach] spirit to those who walk on it:
Isaiah 42:5 Parallel: Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:


The only scriptures that says what happens to the spirit in man, are the ones I quoted above.
They basically says the spirit is from God, and it sustains a breathing creature. When it goes out, it returns to God who give it, and when he does give it again life is created.

There are no scriptures that say the spirit in fleshly beings is an entity that communicates or lives in a realm.
Do you know of any? Please... I'd like to see them.


There are no verses that says life continues after death. Do you have one in mind? Please show it.
See above for the Greek expression used to refer to Jesus' resurrection. Do you disagree with the definition of resurrection, and what the scriptures say about Jesus being made alive?
What exactly are you in disagreement with, may I ask?


That is a beautiful scripture. The book of Job is a favorite of many, because it holds out a hope for those who died.
Job reasoned on his confidence in the resurrection.
He said... (Job 14:7-15)
7 For there is hope even for a tree. If it is cut down, it will sprout again, And its twigs will continue to grow. 8 If its root grows old in the ground And its stump dies in the soil, 9 At the scent of water it will sprout; And it will produce branches like a new plant. 10 But a man dies and lies powerless; When a human expires, where is he? 11 Waters disappear from the sea, And a river drains away and dries up. 12 Man also lies down and does not get up. Until heaven is no more, they will not wake up, Nor will they be aroused from their sleep. 13 O that in the Grave you would conceal me, That you would hide me until your anger passes by, That you would set a time limit for me and remember me! 14 If a man dies, can he live again? I will wait all the days of my compulsory service Until my relief comes. 15 You will call, and I will answer you. You will long for the work of your hands.


That's the beautiful resurrection hope held out to those who leave false religion, with their false religious ideas.

What does your general definition of “sons of God” have to do with your claim that the angels God punished were individuals who were born and were around at the time if the great flood and who also also Jesus preached to between his death and resurrection?

Where is the connection between the angels as described in Luke 8;30,31 or 2Peter 2, or Revelation 20 with the same spirits Jesus preached to in their prison state between Jesus’s death and resurrection as opposed to being Satan’s angels who were not shown to ever having been born in the first place as shown in Revelation 12?

How do you get that to be made alive according to the spirit meant that the spirit and the body were never together when according you like the “unto dust one returns to God so does the spirit”? To be made alive according to the spirit according to you means one never existed as a spirit until death, so there would be no returning of the spirit.

HOW does Ecclesiastes 12 show that there could not be any spirts that would exist in a prison state, especially since Peter did say that there were spirts that were in a prison state according to 1Peter 3:18-20? If the spirit does not roam anywhere would indicate that such a spirit has restrictions kind of like a prisoner can’t just roam anywhere.

Thete is nothing to indicate in Job 27 that in order for Job to have the spirit of God in his nostrils Job could not also have his spirit in his physical body as well. There is nothing saying that Job’ was not big enough for the both of them spirits.

30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth. (Psalms 104:30 KJV). Where is it shown that “ they are created” cannot mean both spirit and body?

Isaiah 42 showing about God giving breath and spirit to those who walk in it would mean that God united spirit and body together when they walk the Earth. That means when death comes the spirit continues on separated from the body they were once tied to by God. The scriptures you cited do show that the spirit and the body are tied together during our life in mortality.

Also,
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5 KJV)
How can go about to be born of the spirit in this life if one does not become alive in the spirit until after being dead physically?

26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: (Job 19:26 KJV)

HOW do you figure that means only that Job had confidence that after he closed his eyes, he would be like a old dried up stump of a tree in the ground, nesting until he gets a scent of water to be reviewed, and grow into a new tree?

That verse talks about Job rotting away. His physical body being destroyed, and then he states that in the flesh he shall see God. Not in the spirit only or in a new spiritual body but in the flesh. The words “new” and “spirit” were not used, but the words “...in the flesh...” we’re used.

How do you figure that resurrection is not with the physical body when Jesus brought his apostles to him to handle him showing he had a body of flesh and bone and even ate food with his apostles as shown in Luke 24?

 

[Trailblazer]

The "original sin" was the cause for mankind to be sinful.

I do not believe Adam and Ever were the cause. I believe that man is born good but man sins because he has a lower nature as well as a higher nature and free will, so he can choose to follow either nature.

“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.” Paris Talks, p. 60

John 5:19, ". . . Jesus and said unto them, . . ."
John 5:28-29, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
As per Revelation 20:11-15. Revelation 21:7-8.

I believe that those verses refer to those who will hear the Voice of God through Baha'u'llah, who was the resurrection and the life. Jesus was saying that the hour is coming when His Spirit will return in the Person of Baha'u'llah, and those who are in their graves, the spiritually dead, will arise to spiritual life whereas the spiritually dead who remain asleep in their graves or those who have done evil will not have spiritual life.

“It hath been demonstrated and definitely established, through clear evidences, that by “Resurrection” is meant the rise of the Manifestation of God to proclaim His Cause....” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 170

“At the time of the appearance and manifestation of the rays of the Daystar of Truth, all occupy the same station. God then proclaimeth that which He willeth, and whoso heareth His call and acknowledgeth His truth is accounted among the inhabitants of Paradise. Such a soul hath traversed the Bridge, the Balance, and all that hath been recorded regarding the Day of Resurrection, and hath reached his destination. The Day of God’s Revelation is the Day of the most great Resurrection. We cherish the hope that, quaffing from the choice wine of divine inspiration and the pure waters of heavenly grace, thou mayest attain the station of discovery and witnessing, and behold, both outwardly and inwardly, all that which thou hast mentioned.”
The Tabernacle of Unity, pp. 62- 63

 

[cataway]

Spirits who died are those spirits who once were alive at the time of Noah having physical bodies who then perished in the great flood.

Again, what does your cited verses in 2Peter, Jude 6, Genesis 6, and Job 1 have anything to do with Noah’s day and the great flood from which 1Peter 3:18-20 was referring to?

The point of Jesus preaching to the spirits in prison was referring to people who once had bodies who then died and those spirits continued on in some sort of restricted or prison state or in a damned state.

HOW could Jesus have taught these spirts as described in 1Peter if he wasn’t made alive u til third day?

Jesus doing that teaching happened between his death and resurrection. His resurrection didn’t happen until the third day. That does not fit at all with your interpretation of what being made alive according to the spirit means.

To be resurrected is only meant to be a spiritual one does not fit BECAUSE according to your definition Jesus couldn’t do anything until the third day since it wasn’t until the third day when he was resurrected. He couldn’t teach any spirts in prison BECAUSE according to you Jesus wasn’t made alive according to the spirit. That contradicts 1Peter 3:18-20.

Also, HOW does resurrection mean it’s just a spiritual one when according to your definition of resurrection means being restored to life? When physical death occurs the body loses function. So in order to be resurrected the function of the physical body has to be restored.

Also, HOW could the resurrection be only defined as a spiritual resurrection when according to you the spirit never came to life to begin with until after being dead physically? There is no restoration involved.

Just because you you never heard of the point that the angels God condemned never were given the opprotunity to be born begin with does not mean that didn’t happen.

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Lucifer was such a fallen angel. There is nothing shown that Lucifer was ever born physically.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
(Revelation 12:4, 7-10 KJV)

Describing the great dragon or Satan or the Devil had his angels and those verses shows that a third of all the angels in Heaven followed Satan or the dragon. Then there was a war between Satan and his angels against Michael and his angels. Satan and his angels did not prevail and were cast out into the Earth.

There was nothing showing that either Satan or his angels ever were born and so there is no connection between the angels you cited who were punished by God and the spirits in prison with whom Christ preached to in 1Peter.

I believe we existed as spirts before we were born into this world of mortality.

4 Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
(Jeremiah 1:4-5 KJV)

That shows an example of there was a state of existence for us prior to being born physically. God knew Jeremiah and had expectations of him prior to him being born physically, which also shows it’s possible for the rest of us who were born also existed as spirits prior to being born.

That also means that Satan and his angels also had existed spiritually. However, there was no showing that either Satan or his angels ever were born obtained any physical bodies when they were cast into the Earth.

Matthew 25:53 does not show that the angels Jesus could request from his father would also be angels with whom God punished and who were born. After all, a third of all angels would follow Satan and were cast out into the Earth with Satan.

What does how long one studies the Bible that have to do with the validity of what I presented. It’s either valid or invalid regardless of how long I have studied.

Also, what does John 8:23 have anything to do with Jesus visiting and preaching to those spirits in prison? After all, Jesus was from a realms above this Earth, but that didn’t stop him from living on this Earth in mortality where he preached and sacrificed himself.

you have it wrong

 

[Nivek001]

you have it wrong

And your proof that I have it wrong is?

 

[Deeje]

In fact, you have it so wrong, its hard to know where to start to unravel that gross misunderstanding.

What does your general definition of “sons of God” have to do with your claim that the angels God punished were individuals who were born and were around at the time if the great flood and who also also Jesus preached to between his death and resurrection?

The "sons of God" are angels. Any who are born of God directly are "sons of God". Those humans who will rule with Christ in heaven, are "born again" so these are given a 'new birth' directly by God's spirit to become his "adopted" spirit "sons".
Adam was a "son of God" because he was a direct creation, not born of a woman.

"Sons of God" are NOT those born born of human mothers. Therefore the "sons of God" who noticed the beautiful daughters of human women (Genesis ch 6) were materialized rebel angels. These had children born to them who were the cause of much violence and licentiousness in the days prior to the flood. Their presence on earth was the catalyst for what God did to get rid of them.

When the flood caused the deaths of all those monstrous children who had no right to live, and all who were influenced by them at that time, their angelic fathers dematerialized and returned to the spirit realm because they did not have a physical anchor to remain on earth. The only material thing in existence then, was the arc and God's protection was on that and its precious cargo.

When they returned to the spirit realm they were put under restraint because there is no mention of them ever materializing again....but God's faithful angels continued to do so. Abraham was visited by three of them who ate and drank and accepted his hospitality. (Genesis ch 18)
Gabriel materialized as a strong man when giving God's instructions to Daniel and he did so again when he visited Mary to announce the birth of Jesus. No wings. Do we really think that angels need wings to fly?

Where is the connection between the angels as described in Luke 8;30,31 or 2Peter 2, or Revelation 20 with the same spirits Jesus preached to in their prison state between Jesus’s death and resurrection as opposed to being Satan’s angels who were not shown to ever having been born in the first place as shown in Revelation 12?

Satan's angels were not born....they materialized and they had bad motives for doing so...to enjoy the pleasures of the flesh...something angels were not able to do in spirit form.

Faithful angels (messengers) who were visiting God's servants on earth always materialized because it was forbidden in God's law to communicate with spirits. That way an angelic visitation was assuredly from God because the demons could no longer appear as men. The only way to communicate with those deceptive spirits was through those who could summon them...those forbidden to do so in God's law. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)

How do you get that to be made alive according to the spirit meant that the spirit and the body were never together when according you like the “unto dust one returns to God so does the spirit”? To be made alive according to the spirit according to you means one never existed as a spirit until death, so there would be no returning of the spirit.

There is no spirit before birth or after death because the "spirit" in man is not in and of itself, an entity. Our spirit is our what sustains our life by breathing. Adam was not a soul until be breathed. When the breath leaves the body the soul dies. (Ezekiel 18:4) A soul can only be returned to life by God in the resurrection....the recreation of our body and the restoration of the soul (person) with all its memories and personality traits will be achieved God giving a human back his breath. (spirit)

Can you show me where it says in the Bible that spirits exist in heaven before they are born as humans on earth?
Or that they return to God after their experience on earth?

How do you figure that resurrection is not with the physical body when Jesus brought his apostles to him to handle him showing he had a body of flesh and bone and even ate food with his apostles as shown in Luke 24?

Yes, he had a materialized body when he showed himself to his apostles. The Bible says that he "appeared" to them, but they did not always recognize him. On one occasion, he disappears right before their eyes.....he was not in the body he had when he died. If you read the accounts, he did materialize a body with wounds so as to convince a doubting Thomas....but at other times the wounds, which would have been gaping and his flesh ripped to shreds after the flogging they gave him, were never mentioned. Why would God resurrect his son with painful wounds when Jesus himself was a healer? If Jesus laid down his life in sacrifice, how does God take that life and give it back to him without cancelling out the very reason it was given?

How do you make any sense of your beliefs?

 

[Trailblazer]

HOW do you interpret the resurrection as only being the continuation of the spirit and has nothing to do with the physical body when Jesus went out of his way to show to his apostles that he had a living physical body by encouraging his apostles to handle him and eating with them?

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
(Luke 24:37-43 KJV)

Just because you interpret the resurrection to only be in a spiritual sense does not explain how your interpretation is valid when Jesus went out if his way to show his apostles that the resurrection was regarding his physical body.

I do not believe those were true stories, I believe they were myths. In other words, I do not believe that Jesus ever did what it says in those gospels.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(1Corinthians 15:22 KJV)
That does show Paul said something about being cast out if the Garden of Eden.

Paul points out that the fall of Adam, which involved being cast out if the Garden of Eden, brought death upon all of humanity. Because of that happens to everyone, no matter what we have done, Christ will fix that for all of us when we are resurrected. That is what I believe.

Paul said nothing about the Garden of Eden. The Fall of Adam bringing in physical death is a Christian doctrine that has been fed to you. Humans did not become mortal because Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they would have been mortal regardless. Christ is not going to fix the fact that God made our bodies mortal by raising you in a physical body, but you are free to believe that if you want to. The following is what I believe, how Christ made us all alive.

Question.—In verse 22 of chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians it is written: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” What is the meaning of these words?

Answer.—Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection. Some Answered Questions, p. 118

Also, where do you get that Paul didn’t teach about any refining process?

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judæa, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
(Acts 26:20 KJV)
If God had no refining process in his plan for us why did Paul teach that we should repent and turn to God?

The refining process of repenting and turning to God is the refining of our spirits, not refining our bodies.

The physical was referring to the natural physical state we all have in mortality which is to make mistakes or sin. To repent makes one come closer to God which deals with the spirit because our spirits continue after natural mortal bodies die.

I agree with that.

Where is it taught that physical body he showed his apostles for them to handle was not perfect?

Peter taught that there is a spirit body that continued on after physical death (1Peter 3:18-20) showing that there were some spirits, who had died during the great flood, who were in a prison like state (Hell) in which Jesus taught to them between his death and resurrection.

Jesus did this BEFORE being resurrected on the third day. According to your take Jesus couldn’t do anything spiritually before being resurrected on the third day, and that does go contrary to what Peter taught.

I do not know what you are referring to. I never said that.

And it was taught from Revelation Chapter 20:13 that after Christ’s 1,000 year reign that the dead from Hell would be delivered up for final judgement. Again, how could any of those in Hell before being given up for final judgement not exist if they were taught as spirits while being in prison as shown in 1Peter 3: 18-20?

I do not believe there will be any 1,000 year reign of Jesus or any final judgment from Jesus because I do not believe Jesus is going to do anything more or return to Earth because Jesus said His work is finished and He was no more in the world. (John 14:19, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30, John 18:36)

Any verses that refer to a 1,000 year reign or judgment refer to the return of Christ, who was called Baha'u'llah.

Paul goes into further points on this in 1Corinthians 15 that in Christ shall all be made alive. That would include those from Hell who continued on with their spiritual bodies after they died physically during great flood.

You are making assumptions with nothing to base them on except how you interpret certain verses and put them together. Read what is says on this link about what Paul meant when he said that in Christ shall all be made alive:

29: EXPLANATION OF VERSE TWENTY-TWO, CHAPTER FIFTEEN, OF THE FIRST EPISTLE OF ST. PAUL TO THE CORINTHIANS

HOW could you believe that we continue on as spirits immediately after we die when you figure that the resurrection is only a spiritual one? Even Jesus’s resurrection didn’t occur until the third day which would mean according to your take Jesus didn’t exist spiritually immediately after his death.

The soul (spirit) of Jesus left His body immediately after He died and that will happen to everybody who dies. All that is explained in this paragraph:

The Resuscitation of Man from the Dead and His Entrance into Eternal Life

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351​

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
(Revelation 20:5 KJV)
How could you believe that we all continue as spirits immediately after death, which makes one resurrected spiritually according to you, when for many that resurrection will not take place for quite some time?

It is because you do not understand what Rev 20 means that I cannot explain it to you. It is symbolic, not literal. None of it is about dead bodies living again. The thousand years has nothing to do with Jesus.

Where does it say in 1Corinthians 15:40-43 that it was comparing physical bodies to spiritual bodies? If there is no physical resurrection there is nothing to compare a spiritual resurrection with. Your interpretation does not make any sense.

There is no resurrection of physical bodies, and Paul never said there was. Physical bodies are buried and the soul leaves the body and passes to the spiritual world (heaven) and takes on a spiritual body

1 Corinthians 15:44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

The mortal body is sown or laid to rest being corrupted it would and then it’s raised incorrupted or perfected like Jesus’s perfected physical body that Jesus invited his apostles to handle so they would know that he was resurrected physically as shown in Luke 24.

26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
(Job 19:26 KJV)

What is messing you all up is your insistence that Jesus had a perfected physical body that rose from the grave. You will never understand any of this as long as you cling to that belief. You can always look for verses that you believe support beliefs you hold but they are applied out of context.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, he had a materialized body when he showed himself to his apostles. The Bible says that he "appeared" to them, but they did not always recognize him. On one occasion, he disappears right before their eyes.....he was not in the body he had when he died. If you read the accounts, he did materialize a body with wounds so as to convince a doubting Thomas....but at other times the wounds, which would have been gaping and his flesh ripped to shreds after the flogging they gave him, were never mentioned. Why would God resurrect his son with painful wounds when Jesus himself was a healer? If Jesus laid down his life in sacrifice, how does God take that life and give it back to him without cancelling out the very reason it was given?

Why do Christians believe this stuff, kind of suspicious if you ask me, sounds to me like something is not right.....

If a Christian cannot convince a Christian that the "bodily" resurrection of Jesus was a sham, a Baha'i sure ain't gonna do it.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

For those of you who believe in a physical resurrection, which body do you get? Do you get your aged aching body you died in, or the one where you were at your healthiest, or do you get a free choice, or some other answer?

Well - taking the Resurrected body of the Lord Jesus Christ into account and what He did with it - it is possible for Resurrected Being to manipulate their bodies according to their desires - or rather the will of God.

I believe this is true of those who participate in the Resurrection of the Just - or those who inherit bodies celestial - but I do not know if it also applies to those who will receive a lesser Resurrection.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(1Corinthians 15:22 KJV)
That does show Paul said something about being cast out if the Garden of Eden.

Paul points out that the fall of Adam, which involved being cast out if the Garden of Eden, brought death upon all of humanity. Because of that happens to everyone, no matter what we have done, Christ will fix that for all of us when we are resurrected. That is what I believe.

You’re right, good reasoning!
Another Scripture is Romans 5:12
Also, keep in mind that God told Adam (who then relayed it to Eve), ‘If you eat from that (one) tree, then you’ll die.’
If they had obeyed, they wouldn’t have died!
The account reveals long ages for them after their rebellion, and the generations of descendants immediately following. Gradually, the longevity of their descendants farther on down, like Abraham who lived 175 years, on down to Joshua who lived 110. There was an Israelite priest, many generations past Joshua, in 2 Chronicles, name of Jehoiada, the account says he lived 130. There was a French woman recently (in the 1990’s), Jeanne Calment, who apparently died @ 122. A unique event.

Anyways,
What does that tell us? That imperfection is inherited.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I totally agree!! My application of what I meant is further below!



Love it! And again totally agree! You can't make scriptures say anything you want



So... one example of what I meant. When Jesus shared that there was a rich man and a poor man Lazarus and the rich man woke up in a place of torment while Lazaurs was in Abraham's blossom.

One group will say it is a parable and it is symbolism and the another group says that it was real. Each side convinced and supporting their position. If, as in other cases, the scriptures would have said, "And Jesus shared parable" - there would be no disagreement but it doesn't say that so you have "two interpretations".

Will ones view change ones eternal destiny? I don't think so. Does that mean one side is on the wrong path during Armageddon? No. IMV.

Will some be on the wrong path? Absolutely! Jesus said, "You called me Lord but I don't know you". On that issue it is so black and white there is no room for misinterpretation.

I hope that made it clear.

So... whatever the body is like, we all agree it is an eternal body and a heavenly body. Does that mean it isn't physical? We assume that somehow something physical translates that it isn't spiritual yet, as I see it, Adam's body was both physical and spiritual. I don't think that they are needed to be two separate entities but rather are one. When God created the earth in the light (God is light) - I see it as both spiritual and physical and since there was no sin there was no death.

Thus the need of a new earth.




No... I would never say "I am the pastor". And I never teach what I don't know too. I always say one of the best answers is "I don't know but I will study to find out" vs just sounding spiritual with a bad answer. It is too dangerous to play with spiritual lives.

I would say Jesus was separated from God because "the wages of sin is death" - separation from God. The only way Jesus could have died is by taking on our sin since he was sinless. When Jesus said "Why have thou forsaken me" - it was the first time he was without God's presence.

If Jesus was "the firstborn from the dead" - knowing that resurrections had happened in the TaNaKh so it couldn't be a natural resurrection, understanding that when Jesus said "You must be born again" speaking of our spirits, then we can understand that "the first firstborn from the dead" is speaking of his spirit and thus had to be separated from God Spirit.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit

(Wuest) Because Christ also died once for all in relation to sins, a just One on behalf of unjust ones, in order that He might provide you with an entree into the presence of God, having in fact been put to death with respect to the flesh [His human body], but made alive with respect to the spirit [His human spirit],

(ASV) Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit ;

(CEV) Christ died once for our sins. An innocent person died for those who are guilty. Christ did this to bring you to God, when his body was put to death and his spirit was made alive.

(HCSB) For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that He might bring you to God, after being put to death in the fleshly realm but made alive in the spiritual realm.

(WEB) Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit ;

(WNT) because Christ also once for all died for sins, the innocent One for the guilty many, in order to bring us to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit,

(YLT) because also Christ once for sin did suffer–righteous for unrighteous–that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit,

To be "made alive in the spirit" would mean that he would have to have been separated first. No need to "make alive" if he is already alive in oneness with God's Spirit.



Couldn't agree more. I turn off many programs.



Again... I don't believe that when God made the physical earth that it was separated from the spiritual. It was sin that separated the physical from God's Spirit. IMU, I don't see anywhere that I would be wrong. When God creates a new heaven and a new earth... it will be back to His original purpose - complete union in and through Him.


" Or, on a more specific example, when Jesus said "Whether to forgive sins or say to this man 'take up your bed and walk" and strength came into his legs... the spiritual superseded the natural."

No sure how to address your question because I am not sure I understand. It is spiritual first and then natural. The Spirit of God created what we see in the natural. The spiritual realm is more powerful and more real because what we see is temporal (because of sin - when God cursed the ground).


What are your thoughts of the physical (pre-sin) and spiritual being one as God is in all and through all?

The previous manifestation of Christ was before "a body thou hast prepared" for me (Heb 10:5). To come into the world through the front legal door of Gen 1:26.

I have no reason to believe that after the resurrection both physical and spiritual are not one.

Agreed! But, at this point I still have the position that they are "bodies" that are "spirit-ual".

I believe that the Heavenly Temple is still very material (physical) and yet very spiritual.

Hey KenS! Hope you’re well.
Just a note on “new earth”: when we read Genesis 11:1, we can see how earth can mean people, society.
That’s what we (JW’s) feel it means.(In this instance.)
Because this planet Earth is beautiful! It just needs “cleaned up.”
Revelation 11:18, last sentence.

 

[Deeje]

Why do Christians believe this stuff, kind of suspicious if you ask me, sounds to me like something is not right.....

We believe what is the truth from our scripture. You can believe whatever you wish.

If a Christian cannot convince a Christian that the "bodily" resurrection of Jesus was a sham, a Baha'i sure ain't gonna do it.

You said it .....Christ was raised as a spirit, not a human. He “appeared” to his apostles as a human because he materialised human form as other spirit beings had done before him. You think the angels that visited Abraham, Daniel and Mary were humans?

I cannot for the life of me understand how Baha’i’s can pretend to accept Jesus, but deny what is written about him in our scripture.

 

[Tiberius]

You’re making a good point, as if you’ve reasoned on this. I mean, your understanding of the situation provides the reason for Jesus’ ransom sacrifice.

But you are an atheist, right? Do you feel science has negated the Bible?

Keep in mind, suppositions (even in science) are not facts; just interpretations of facts.

No, I do not think we need science to negate the Bible. I do not dismiss the Bible because I think science has a better explanation for things. I dismiss the Bible on the numerous inconsistencies in it. But that's not the point of this discussion, so let's stick to the actual topic, shall we?

 

[Tiberius]

If 2 Peter 3:5-6 was about the literal heavens then that would include the spirit heaven (God's home) and be long gone in Noah's day.
Why would God destroy his heavenly home, that would Not make sense.
Earth is still here since Noah's day. If the physical heavens were gone we would Not be here.
In Bible speak, so to speak, governments are above in the sense of ruling over; they are governmental heavens.
Governmental heavens in that man has wrongly governed over man to man's hurt, man's injury - Ecclesiastes 8:9
The OLD system ( Noah's day )
The NOW system ( from Noah's day to our day )
The NEW system ( thousand-year governmental reign of Christ over Earth )
Just as the heavens and earth were Not destroyed in Noah's day, but were ' washed ' clean.
Jesus, in the clean governmental heavens, will ' wash ' earth clean by removing any dirt in this corrupted system.
This is why we are all invited to pray the invitation of Rev. 22:20 for Jesus to come !
Come and undo all the damage Satan and corrupted humanity has done so that we will see an earth as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.

I think it's far more reasonable that "heavens" in that passage means the skies rather than Human governments.

 

[Tiberius]

Can you provide a verse that says physical death WAS part of the punishment? Below are all the pertinent verses which explain the punishments. After explaining all the punishments, God closes with this:

Genesis 3:19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.

Please note that God never said that physical death was part of the punishment, God only said that they would return to the ground because that is where they came from.

Genesis 3:12-19 New International Version

12 The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”

13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”

The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[i] and hers;
he will crush[j] your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

16 To the woman he said,

“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”

17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

You do not understand the burden of proof, do you?

That's true for if you interpret the Bible literally you cannot make it match up with reality, whcih is why I do not interpret Genesis literally and why I believe that Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden was just a story that has spiritual signification.

If Adam and Eve is just a story, then Jesus's sacrifice is nothing more than God sending himself to be sacrificed to himself to convince himself to forgive Humanity for the crimes of two people who never even existed.

Do you have any verses that the punishment for Adam and Eve was physical death, which they never would have known if they had not disobeyed God? It was just assumed by Christians that death meant physical death and doctrines were formed which were believed from that time forward. Anyone who uses logic and common sense would know that physical death was and will always be necessary because no new life could be born if nobody ever died since that would lead to overpopulation. Christians say that physical death was never part of God's Plan but of course physical death was always part of God's Plan, and that is why we have mortal bodies.

I am sure I could find verses but I am kind of on the run right now, but regarding the Tree of Life, the Bible says:

It is a tree of life to all who grasp it, and whoever holds on to it is happy; its ways are ways of pleasantness, and all it paths are peace. (Proverbs 3:17-18)

Being happy and at peace and pleasantness are about spiritual life, not about physical life.

The bit about returning to dust doesn't seem to be referring to spiritual death, does it?

 

[Kenny]

Hey KenS! Hope you’re well.
Just a note on “new earth”: when we read Genesis 11:1, we can see how earth can mean people, society.
That’s what we (JW’s) feel it means.(In this instance.)
Because this planet Earth is beautiful! It just needs “cleaned up.”
Revelation 11:18, last sentence.

Thanks, cousin. Doing very well. Hope you and yours are doing good too.

OK... never heard that before.

It certainly does need cleaning up and 1,000 years will probably do the trick.

 

[Nivek001]

In fact, you have it so wrong, its hard to know where to start to unravel that gross misunderstanding.

How do you make any sense of your beliefs?

How does you saying that the “Sons of God are NOT those born born of human mothers. PROVE that is the case?

How does you simply saying “Therefore the "sons of God" who noticed the beautiful daughters of human women (Genesis ch 6) were materialized rebel angels. These had children born to them who were the cause of much violence and licentiousness in the days prior to the flood. Their presence on earth was the catalyst for what God did to get rid of them” PROVE that was the case?


Where are you getting any of what you have posted?

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
(Genesis 6:2 KJV)

There is no distinction given other than the sons of God being anything other than just that. The sons of God, which that definition would fit any male human who was ever born on Earth. That also makes everything else you posted about regarding the “sons of God” come into question. Where are you getting that info from?

Also, the “sons of God” in Genesis 6 do not show that they specifically received any punishment from God. All that chapter went through was that they took daughters of men and married them. There was nothing saying that was a wicked act. Also the chapter stated that God’s spirit shall not always strive with man. That is man in general which could be the children born of the daughters of men and the sons of God.

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:7 KJV

The sons of God in that verse can also well mean any spirit male child of God as well since they could very well have been there before those spirits were born like as described in Jeremiah 1:5.

How does you simply defining what Satan’s angels are have anything to with what I asked which was;

Where is the connection between the angels as described in Luke 8;30,31 or 2Peter 2, or Revelation 20 with the same spirits Jesus preached to in their prison state between Jesus’s death and resurrection as opposed to being Satan’s angels who were not shown to ever having been born in the first place as shown in Revelation 12? How does you saying that what was described in Revelation 12 was just symbolic mean that what was described in Revelation 12 was only symbolic?

What scripture states that Adam was not a soul or spirit until he breathed? How does you saying there is no spirit before or after death proof that it was taught in the Gospel that there is no soul or spirit before or after death? Once again you failed to address the point that Peter said that between his death and resurrection he actually did do something. He taught other spirits who like he at the time were not resurrected either physically or spiritually.

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
(Jeremiah 1:5 KJV)

How could God have known or sanctified Jeremiah before he was born if it’s Gospel that Jeremiah didn’t exist before he was born?

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
(Luke 23:43 KJV)

Jesus said “To day”. Not on the third day. That means that BOTH Jesus and the thief on the cross Jesus was talking to had to exist between physical death and when Jesus was resurrected.

How do the apostles not recognizing how Jesus was a changed person when he was resurrected prove that the resurrection was not physical? It was still Jesus and they handled Jesus’s resurrected physical body.

Also where is the proof that a God with a physical body cannot disappear in front of others with that physical body?

How does the point that Jesus’s crucified wound marks remained when resurrected prove he was not really resurrected physically? That doesn’t make any sense. Just because you don’t get why Jesus’s resurrected body still had the wounds marks does not mean it’s proof that it was never taught that Jesus had a resurrected physical body and that body still had wound marks.

You pointed it out before that when the resurrected Jesus first appeared to those witnesses they did not recognize him at first. Apparently resurrection in a perfected state can change the look of a person. The wound marks are a way so that others can recognize just who this glorified person is.

Where do you get that Jesus having his physical body back in his resurrection cancelled the very reason it was given?

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(John 3:16 KJV)

There is no distinction that defined everlasting life as being only spiritual, especially when in Luke 24 Jesus appeared to his apostles in a physical body.

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
(1Corinthians 15:44 KJV)

There is nothing in that verse that a raised body was just spiritually exclusive. Again, pointing out Jesus appearing to his apostles in a physical body. Jesus had both his spiritual body and his physical one at the same time.

Also, it’s the mortal natural body that Paul was referring to that was sown. That mortal natural body being corrupt and faulty. To be raised spiritually meant to be not of this world, which is mortal and messed up and is only into the physical.

 

[Nivek001]

I do not believe those were true stories, I believe they were myths. In other words, I do not believe that Jesus ever did what it says in those gospels.

Paul said nothing about the Garden of Eden. The Fall of Adam bringing in physical death is a Christian doctrine that has been fed to you. Humans did not become mortal because Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they would have been mortal regardless. Christ is not going to fix the fact that God made our bodies mortal by raising you in a physical body, but you are free to believe that if you want to. The following is what I believe, how Christ made us all alive.

Question.—In verse 22 of chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians it is written: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” What is the meaning of these words?

Answer.—Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection. Some Answered Questions, p. 118

The refining process of repenting and turning to God is the refining of our spirits, not refining our bodies.

I agree with that.

I do not know what you are referring to. I never said that.

I do not believe there will be any 1,000 year reign of Jesus or any final judgment from Jesus because I do not believe Jesus is going to do anything more or return to Earth because Jesus said His work is finished and He was no more in the world. (John 14:19, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30, John 18:36)

Any verses that refer to a 1,000 year reign or judgment refer to the return of Christ, who was called Baha'u'llah.

You are making assumptions with nothing to base them on except how you interpret certain verses and put them together. Read what is says on this link about what Paul meant when he said that in Christ shall all be made alive:

29: EXPLANATION OF VERSE TWENTY-TWO, CHAPTER FIFTEEN, OF THE FIRST EPISTLE OF ST. PAUL TO THE CORINTHIANS

The soul (spirit) of Jesus left His body immediately after He died and that will happen to everybody who dies. All that is explained in this paragraph:

The Resuscitation of Man from the Dead and His Entrance into Eternal Life

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351​

It is because you do not understand what Rev 20 means that I cannot explain it to you. It is symbolic, not literal. None of it is about dead bodies living again. The thousand years has nothing to do with Jesus.

There is no resurrection of physical bodies, and Paul never said there was. Physical bodies are buried and the soul leaves the body and passes to the spiritual world (heaven) and takes on a spiritual body

1 Corinthians 15:44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

What is messing you all up is your insistence that Jesus had a perfected physical body that rose from the grave. You will never understand any of this as long as you cling to that belief. You can always look for verses that you believe support beliefs you hold but they are applied out of context.

And the basis for you believing they are myths is what? Is there proof that a God who wants us to rely on faith in him instead of relying on established evidence was never physically resurrected or are you just going off of your belief?

How does Paul say nothing about Adam and what happened in the Garden of Eden prove that is the case when there is;

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (1Corinthians 15:22 KJV)

You going on about there being two natures in Adam does not preclude that the development of those natures occurred while in the Garden of Eden. While I don’t believe in original sin I do believe that what happened in the Garden of Eden with Adam did result in all of us physically dying and you going on about how that verse goes over two natures does not prove it has taught that humanity was not subject to physical death due to Adam.

Why do you not believe there will be a 1,000 year reign? Where does it say that Jesus was finished with ALL of his work and therefore would be no more task to perform?

The 1,000 year reign belief is not based on nothing that was taught especially when there details about it in Revelation. Why do you believe that the Book of Revelation is baseless?

Why do you believe in your “Heaven and Hell” definition that the resurrection was only from one works of the physics to the spiritual when in Luke 24 Jesus had his disciples handle his resurrected physical body? Why do you believe the “Heaven and Hell” definition over what is given in the Gospel of Luke?

26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Job 19:26 KJV

I’m not understanding any of what you are BECAUSE you have not explained or provided anything that shows what you believe carries any more validity than what I believe. You just claim you believe what you believe and that’s all there is to it.

Well, at least when it comes to why I believe what I believe also stems through with studying what I studied but I in addition try to apply what is taught in my life to see if it’s good and even seeking assuredness if what I have been learning and applying is true by asking God in prayer if it’s true.

So then if there is a third party out there who wonders if what I claim to believe in is right there is one way for that third party to find out. That would be to try and do what I claimed and see first hand if the same assurance is given.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I think it's far more reasonable that "heavens" in that passage means the skies rather than Human governments.

Yes, I can see why you say the skies....
....But the literal heavens of OLD (Noah's day) did 'Not perish' - 2 Peter 3:5-6
The literal heavens of NOW (verse 7) reserved for fire is Not a literal fire, but as fire can purify some things.
Not the literal skies passing away (verse 10) but corrupted 'works' burnt up, so to speak, as fire can also destroy.
So, it is symbolic of corrupted governmental rule or the 'works' of ungodly society. - Isaiah 26:21
Please notice who is removed or taken out as per Isaiah 13:9.
So, the NEW heavens and earth (2 Peter 3:13) is purified in that only righteousness will dwell.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

There is one:
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
But there is not even one scripture that says that physical bodies will rise from graves and live on Earth forever.

Except for Christ, ALL the resurrections were: physical ones.
To me the word "it" is a neuter and Not a person ( Not physical or spirit (angel) person )
So, the spirit (it) that returns to God who gave "it" simply goes back (returns) to God.
When something is returned it does Not have to mean resurrected or go up to heaven.
Rather, like a foreclosed house does Not move or go anywhere but is simply returned to the hands of the owner.
So, at death any future life prospect now lies in God's safe hands til Resurrection Day (meaning Jesus' 1,000 year day)
Heaven for some like those of Luke 22:28-30; Daniel 7:18. Earth for the majority of people - John 3:13