For Christians ... a question I've had for a long time

[Hockeycowboy]

No one knows everything, is true, but I don't believe the scriptures were recorded to put on a shelf and say, we can't know what its writings reveal. I believe what's recorded for us, at 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 Alll scripture is God breathed, and beneficial for teaching... for setting things straight... So that the man of God may be ... completely equipped for every good work.

So I believe what is writen, is not arbitrary, nor so difficult that it calls for debates that are inconclusive. I believe that the "my interpretation your interpretation" argument is really a Devil inspired design - one of his crafty designs (not directing this at you, but expressing the way I see it).
I see Satan sitting back and saying, "As. My seeds have grown nicely. Job well accomplished."
The way I see it, these scriptures, are not written for nothing. 2 Corinthians 4:3, 4 ; 1 Timothy 4:1, 2

Evidently, the reason for the hundreds of diverse teaching, on very basic - from what I can see - teachings, is not a matter of mistaken ideas. The confusing exists because Satan is a liar - the father of the lie, the Bible says, and he hasn't stopped lying.
In fact he lies even moreso today, and he has more agents to use - Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works. (2 Corinthians 11:14, 15)

Think about it Ken. If Satan has not left the scene, why should we think that we are all on the same ship, traveling in the same direction, to the same destination... Or as some put it, different roads leading to the same destination?
Would that not be the same as saying, Satan isn't very powerful at all. Nor crafty... which is opposite to what Jesus said?
Sorry for that rant , but I think it's important we consider that.

From reading the scriptures, it's evident to me that we can know the things we are discussing here, because they are written.
I agree with Martin Luther, who realized how easy it was for persons to apply a symbolic meaning to anything in scripture. In that way, the scriptures can mean anything one wants it to mean, as Atheists put it.

I believe that while symbolism is used in scripture, there are obvious markers where they do not apply... but who am I... Like you said, Jesus will sort that out.
The only thing about that is, if Armageddon comes and finds us on the wrong path the resurrection won't be our reward.
That's what I understand from scripture.
Feel free to express what you disagree with, as I am sure there is much.


I was asking someone earlier, how they arrive at their conclusions.
Do you think we should just state ideas without any scripture that says what we think Ken?
If we are teaching, which we are to use scripture to do, how can we do so by saying something but having no scripture that agrees?
Let's suppose you were saying what you just said to a group of youth, and they ashed you, "Where in the Bible does it say Christ was separated from God?" What would you say to them?
Remember, most people don't just want to hear, "I said it." or "I am the pastor." or "I believe it."


I never read any of that Ken. I would like to see wher you read it though.


This is all what you are saying Ken. We do hear a lot of pastors on radio, television... all preaching, and saying all sorts of things... but what does the Bible actually say?


No Biggy. Nothing important. I was just wondering what you thought. It's not written - No details are given.


Why do you think that Jesus' body was physical?


Why do you think so?


Yes. So is there any reason why you don't think that Jesus was raised spirit, as the scriptures say, and manifested different physical bodies... as the scripture show, he appeared in multiple bodies - at least four - on different occasions?


The scriptures does say that those who have the heavenly calling will have spirit bodies that are immortal - eternal - in the heavens. 2 Corinthians 5:1-5 ; 1 Peter 1:3, 4 ; 1 Corinthians 15:53


Great! I hope we can continue that way.

Great post!

Regarding Armageddon, I thought you might like this:

“Armageddon will destroy only the incorrigibly wicked, and there will be “a great crowd” of survivors. (Revelation 7:9-14) “

w11 9/1 p. 10 - The Watchtower—2011

 

[Hockeycowboy]

What about the snakes? Could a heavenly being be bitten by one?

Do what? No, I wouldn’t think so.

But then, I don’t think there are animals in heaven. (And those mentioned in Revelation...well, it was a vision given to John, ie., not reality. I mean, a horse with a scorpions tail? All symbolism.)

Under Jesus’ rule, though, Isaiah 11:6-9 reveals the animals “will cause no harm nor any ruin.”

I like snakes, anyways! My wife and I have a corn snake as a pet. She’s 6 feet long, and 16 years old! (The snake, not my wife. Lol.)

 

[nPeace]

Great post!

Regarding Armageddon, I thought you might like this:

“Armageddon will destroy only the incorrigibly wicked, and there will be “a great crowd” of survivors. (Revelation 7:9-14) “

w11 9/1 p. 10 - The Watchtower—2011

Great! All who die at Armageddon are wicked. That's why the didn't get off the path to destruction.

 

[Trailblazer]

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
(1Corinthians 15:42-44 KJV)

There it goes over the resurrection process as being a refining process. Also that the resurrection invoked both the physical and spiritual body.

I do not interpret those verses to mean that the resurrection is a refining process. Rather, when the natural body dies it is raised as a spiritual body, so as soon as the natural body dies the soul leaves the natural body and becomes a spiritual body. After that the natural body is no longer invoked for anything, it returns to dust.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
(1Corinthians 15:45-46 KJV)

Paul explains with Adam was first made a living soul having then not just a physical body but also a soul. Then Paul goes over that in the end after his fall and cast out of the Garden of Eden where he became subject to death there was a refining process to undergo.

Paul said nothing about the fall and Adam being cast out of the Garden of Eden or that there was a refining process to undergo. He simply said that what was not at first spiritual was natural; and afterward it became spiritual.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
(1Corinthians 15:46-47 KJV)

The first is what is described as “natural” is the natural man. That is what we find in this life as being considered natural or earthly, which is that a natural or earthly man is a mortal man.

The second man is the Lord from heaven. That same Lord Jesus who appeared having a perfected immortal physical body that the apostles could physically handle. That same Lord Jesus who also ascended into Heaven with that same immortal body his apostles beheld and handled physically.

I do not believe there is any such thing as a perfected immortal physical body. A physical body that is immortal is an oxymoron because NO physical body is immortal. Paul said "There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." Paul never said there is a hybrid kind of body that is both natural and spiritual.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(1Corinthians 15:50 KJV)

One cannot return to heaven and be in a perfect state of happiness with God while in an imperfect mortal corrupt body(I.e. flesh and BLOOD).

That's right, as there is nothing physical in heaven so a physical body cannot exist in heaven. Only a spiritual body can exist in heaven, and that is why we are raised in a spiritual body when we die.

Like with Jesus Christ we have to go through a refining process. That involves us needing to have a perfected immortal physical body likened unto Jesus’s own perfected immortal resurrected body that his apostles could handle. A body of flesh and BONE.

No, none of that is in the Bible, it is just a Christian doctrine. There are only two kinds of bodies, physical bodies and spiritual bodies. These beliefs in a physical-spiritual body are based upon the belief that Jesus rose from the dead and has a physical body that was a glorified incorruptible body. This is all a made up doctrine, it is not in the Bible.

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
(Luke 24:39 KJV)

The term “flesh and blood” is associated with a mortal physical body, which is subject to death (corrupted). The term “flesh and bone” is associated with a resurrected, immortal, and perfected physical body (incorrupt).

There is no such thing as a immortal, and perfected physical body (incorrupt). That is logically impossible because all physical bodies are subject to decomposition.

Paul went into saying that the resurrection will happen to everyone eventually.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (1Corinthians 15:22 KJV). That is because since physical death is not due to our fault it’s only fair that physical resurrection would eventually come to anyone who has ever lived no matter how righteous or wicked that person was.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" refers ONLY to spiritual life, NOT to physical life.
Physical resurrection of bodies from graves will happen to nobody, because man was never intended to live past his life span. Adam did not cause physical death for everyone who lived after him by disobeying God, Adam caused spiritual death by disobeying God. There would have always been physical death regardless of what Adam had done, since God designed our bodies to be mortal.

Even though we all will receive immortality the quality of that immortal life will not be the same for everyone. That quality of immortal life we will receive will depend on what kind of a person we are in this life. As a result some people’s state of glorified immortal existence will be greater than others.

I agree we we all have an immortal souls, so all souls will continue to exist forever in the spiritual world in a spiritual body. Those would who were close to God will have eternal life which is a state of the soul that is close to God whereas those souls who are distant from God will not have eternal life, even though they will continue to exist in the spiritual world.

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption (1Corinthians 15:40-42 KJV)

In the verses above, Paul was comparing physical bodies to spiritual bodies, saying that they differ, they have different kinds and different degrees of glory. The spiritual body is like the sun and stars because it has more glory; it is brighter than the moon, which only shines because of the light of the sun, not in its own right.

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in a corrupt physical body and it is raised in an incorrupt spiritual body.

If you do not believe in a physical body resurrection how do you reconcile the the point that Jesus went to his apostles in a physically resurrected body and he put forth the effort to show his apostles that he was resurrected physically by letting his apostles handle him and eating food with them as described in Luke 24?

You pointed out that you didn’t believe that account in Luke 24, but you failed to address why you do not believe that Luke 24 account is scripture.

I do not believe that the body of Jesus ever rose from the dead, so I believe that part of the scripture is just stories men told about Jesus. I do not have to reconcile a story that says that Jesus went to his apostles in a physically resurrected body and he put forth the effort to show his apostles that he was resurrected physically by letting his apostles handle him and eating food with them, not anymore than I have to reconciles a story in a novel that says that certain events took place.

 

[PruePhillip]

Do what? No, I wouldn’t think so.

But then, I don’t think there are animals in heaven. (And those mentioned in Revelation...well, it was a vision given to John, ie., not reality. I mean, a horse with a scorpions tail? All symbolism.)

Under Jesus’ rule, though, Isaiah 11:6-9 reveals the animals “will cause no harm nor any ruin.”

I like snakes, anyways! My wife and I have a corn snake as a pet. She’s 6 feet long, and 16 years old! (The snake, not my wife. Lol.)

Yeah, I like snakes too. Had a python once. Don't like people killing them. I offer to come
and relocate them if they are hanging around.
But I think it would be an incredible letdown for someone in a heavenly realm to have to
come down to earth - I mean, just the gravity would suck. Having gone through the Near
Death Experience I can understand people in similar situations not wanting to come back.
I mean, why would you?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Yeah, I like snakes too. Had a python once. Don't like people killing them. I offer to come
and relocate them if they are hanging around.

You do, huh? You & I are unusual breeds! My Dad used to take me snake hunting, not to kill them, but relocate them. I really enjoyed that...the challenge was an adrenaline rush. We never hurt any, not even venomous ones.

As I grew up, I’d go snake hunting on my own. I never brought any venomous ones home, rarely find ‘em, but I sure brought a lot of racers & ratsnakes back to my place! Racers are hard to tame, they’d almost always try to bite me. Back then, living in Ohio, I couldn’t find any corn snakes. They are usually so docile!

Having gone through the Near
Death Experience I can understand people in similar situations not wanting to come back.
I mean, why would you?

Oh, you experienced an nde? I see.

I have an understanding of those. They happen, no doubt, but I believe they are meant to be deceptive visions. My cousin had one.
You see, I believe contrary to what 99.9% of religious people believe: that when you die, you go to another realm. I don’t believe that.



When God told Adam, “you will return to the ground...to dust you will return (Genesis 3:19)”, God didn’t say to Adam, ‘your body’; He said “you.”
At Ecclesiastes 9:4-5, NIV, where it contrasts “For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing”...is it just talking about bodies, or people?

If at death, a person goes to heaven, that seems like a reward. But death, in Scripture, is called an “enemy.” 1 Corinthians 15:26

The only hope for living again — in any kind of realm — is by being resurrected. And as Jesus said, that comes at a future time. John 6:44.

In 1 Corinthians 15, please read verses 6, &17-20. Which agrees w/ the account about Stephen’s death, recorded @ Acts of the Apostles 7:60.

I don’t mean to ramble, let me just say, imo, as I believe the Bible verifies, a person goes nowhere at death, they’re basically non-existent. Non-living...death being the opposite of life.

So, when resurrected, there was nothing they left. They just will experience life again.

Take care, my cousin.

 

[PruePhillip]

You do, huh? You & I are unusual breeds! My Dad used to take me snake hunting, not to kill them, but relocate them. I really enjoyed that...the challenge was an adrenaline rush. We never hurt any, not even venomous ones.

As I grew up, I’d go snake hunting on my own. I never brought any venomous ones home, rarely find ‘em, but I sure brought a lot of racers & ratsnakes back to my place! Racers are hard to tame, they’d almost always try to bite me. Back then, living in Ohio, I couldn’t find any corn snakes. They are usually so docile!


Oh, you experienced an nde? I see.

I have an understanding of those. They happen, no doubt, but I believe they are meant to be deceptive visions. My cousin had one.
You see, I believe contrary to what 99.9% of religious people believe: that when you die, you go to another realm. I don’t believe that.



When God told Adam, “you will return to the ground...to dust you will return (Genesis 3:19)”, God didn’t say to Adam, ‘your body’; He said “you.”
At Ecclesiastes 9:4-5, NIV, where it contrasts “For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing”...is it just talking about bodies, or people?

If at death, a person goes to heaven, that seems like a reward. But death, in Scripture, is called an “enemy.” 1 Corinthians 15:26

The only hope for living again — in any kind of realm — is by being resurrected. And as Jesus said, that comes at a future time. John 6:44.

In 1 Corinthians 15, please read verses 6, &17-20. Which agrees w/ the account about Stephen’s death, recorded @ Acts of the Apostles 7:60.

I don’t mean to ramble, let me just say, imo, as I believe the Bible verifies, a person goes nowhere at death, they’re basically non-existent. Non-living...death being the opposite of life.

So, when resurrected, there was nothing they left. They just will experience life again.

Take care, my cousin.

Be careful of finding a nice quote - the bible is chockers with symbolic language.
There's enough for anyone to support anything they want.
I get the impression there's an afterlife, and heaven and hell, from reading both
the Old and New Testaments.
As for snakes - I live in Australia and we get the super venomous ones here.
Mostly they are not aggressive though. I used to collect them for our serum
labs. We had a brown snake in our house a few months back, about 1.5 meters.
Didn't catch it - I wore boots around the house for weeks.

 

[Brian2]

If Jesus is not dead after he died, why would he need to be raised up?

That would be because the soul is not killed at the death of the body. (Matt 10:28)
The spirit becomes the totality of the man at the death of the body and so become the soul of the man.
These souls are either in Hades or in heaven with the Lord at this time in history it seems.
They are resting just as Samuel was resting when God called him to go and speak to Saul.(1Sam 28:3-25)
Revelation tells us of souls of humans in heaven before the resurrection.
Rev 6: 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given the authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and for the Word of God. They had refused to worship the wild beast or its image and did not have their foreheads or hands marked by the wild beast. They lived and reigned with the Christ for one thousand years.

 

[Nivek001]

That's what I am thinking too.
So you didn't answer some important questions.
If Jesus is dead for three days, how can he do anything... like visit spirits in prison, before he is resurrected?


Okay good. I believe that as well, because it's what we read in scripture.
So what do you mean by... 1Peter 3:18-20 described Jesus between his physical death and resurrection where he continued to act as a spirit and preached to other spirits who apparently were also active as spirts otherwise they couldn’t have been preached to by Jesus.?

Would that not be the same as saying Jesus died, but he didn't die, so while dead, he preached?

Where do you get that Jesus could not do anything as a spirit between his death and resurrection? 1Peter 3:18-2p does go into pointing out that Jesus did preach to those spirits who were in some sort of spiritual prison, who were apparently had died back in the great flood.

To be in a prison one ability to progresd freely is restricted. Much like a river when its flow is restricted or damned. Therefore one’s damnation from progressing or being in Hell is what became of those spirits.

In life they didn’t choose to follow the Gospel or make any convenants with God. Now if they were in life given the opportunity to do those things and reject them is one thing, but it would not be fair if they were condemned to be damned from progressing.

It would be only fair that to those spirits who never had the opprotunity to learn about the full Gospel in life should get that chance after their death while they are in their spirit state.

There are allot of things described in the scriptures, including miraculous things that are not explained how Jesus did those things. Just because no explanation is given on his does not mean those claimed events didn’t take place. Especially when this all deals with belief in someone who stressed relying on faith in him.

How would Jesus being able to do things as a spirit mean that he died but didn’t die? Physical death where the physical body dies one cannot do anything in that physical body.. Jesus while as a spirit did not do anything in a physical body beca he was physically dead. It was his spirit that continued on.

The belief is that there is a physical body and there is a spiritual body. In our mortal life the physical body and the spiritual body are together like a hand in a glove. The glove is like the physical body and the hand within is like the spiritual body.

When physical death occurs, the physical body and the spiritual body separate like when the hand is taken out if the glove. The glove is limp and motionless, but the hand continues on. And as described in 1Peter 3:18-20 it explains that one’s spirit continues on where either they are in a state being able to progress and be happy (like spiritual paradise or Heaven) or in a state that is somewhat like a prison where one’s progression is halted ir damned (like spirit prison or He’ll).

Those verses in 1Peter 3 show that there are certain states of being one is actively in between death and resurrection. But eventually those two states will come to an end after all have been resurrected. After that happens then comes the final judgement.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(Revelation 20:13-14 KJV)

When final judgement comes for those who after all is said and done, even after the preaching in spirit prison was finished, those who would be found to be wicked enough to be cut off from God’s presence will undergo a type of death that is referred to as a second death.

Although they would have a resurrected body and have at least a small state of glory, it would be nothing compared to the state of glory one receive when they do qualify to be in God’s presence. That is like comparing the level of light one receives from the distant stars and our moon from the light one receives from our sun.
(Reference to 1Corinthians 15:40-42)

Comparison to the varied degrees of light is also associated with the varied levels of happiness. Compared to those whose resurrected eternal state whose glory is like the sun, those who did not qualify and remained separated from God’s presence will be in a state of comparative misery that lasts forever.

Like with physical death, where one’s spirit and body are separated, in the second death or spiritual death one is separated from Gods presence. And compared to the level of happiness being in God’s presence, the ones who did not qualify would be like they were in a state of eternal misery like being cast into the lake of fire (reference to Revelation 20:14).

 

[nPeace]

Where do you get that Jesus could not do anything as a spirit between his death and resurrection? 1Peter 3:18-2p does go into pointing out that Jesus did preach to those spirits who were in some sort of spiritual prison, who were apparently had died back in the great flood.

To be in a prison one ability to progresd freely is restricted. Much like a river when its flow is restricted or damned. Therefore one’s damnation from progressing or being in Hell is what became of those spirits.

In life they didn’t choose to follow the Gospel or make any convenants with God. Now if they were in life given the opportunity to do those things and reject them is one thing, but it would not be fair if they were condemned to be damned from progressing.

It would be only fair that to those spirits who never had the opprotunity to learn about the full Gospel in life should get that chance after their death while they are in their spirit state.

There are allot of things described in the scriptures, including miraculous things that are not explained how Jesus did those things. Just because no explanation is given on his does not mean those claimed events didn’t take place. Especially when this all deals with belief in someone who stressed relying on faith in him.

How would Jesus being able to do things as a spirit mean that he died but didn’t die? Physical death where the physical body dies one cannot do anything in that physical body.. Jesus while as a spirit did not do anything in a physical body beca he was physically dead. It was his spirit that continued on.

The belief is that there is a physical body and there is a spiritual body. In our mortal life the physical body and the spiritual body are together like a hand in a glove. The glove is like the physical body and the hand within is like the spiritual body.

When physical death occurs, the physical body and the spiritual body separate like when the hand is taken out if the glove. The glove is limp and motionless, but the hand continues on. And as described in 1Peter 3:18-20 it explains that one’s spirit continues on where either they are in a state being able to progress and be happy (like spiritual paradise or Heaven) or in a state that is somewhat like a prison where one’s progression is halted ir damned (like spirit prison or He’ll).

Those verses in 1Peter 3 show that there are certain states of being one is actively in between death and resurrection. But eventually those two states will come to an end after all have been resurrected. After that happens then comes the final judgement.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(Revelation 20:13-14 KJV)

When final judgement comes for those who after all is said and done, even after the preaching in spirit prison was finished, those who would be found to be wicked enough to be cut off from God’s presence will undergo a type of death that is referred to as a second death.

Although they would have a resurrected body and have at least a small state of glory, it would be nothing compared to the state of glory one receive when they do qualify to be in God’s presence. That is like comparing the level of light one receives from the distant stars and our moon from the light one receives from our sun.
(Reference to 1Corinthians 15:40-42)

Comparison to the varied degrees of light is also associated with the varied levels of happiness. Compared to those whose resurrected eternal state whose glory is like the sun, those who did not qualify and remained separated from God’s presence will be in a state of comparative misery that lasts forever.

Like with physical death, where one’s spirit and body are separated, in the second death or spiritual death one is separated from Gods presence. And compared to the level of happiness being in God’s presence, the ones who did not qualify would be like they were in a state of eternal misery like being cast into the lake of fire (reference to Revelation 20:14).

Okay. So all you had to say was that what you believe makes no sense,. That's all I was asking.

You believe that a dead is not dead. They can still act, though dead.
The Bible on the other hand does not teach that,
The scripture, 1 Peter 3:18, 19 says that Jesus was resurrected in the spirit, and in that state, after being resurrected, he preached to the spirits - not of the dead, but wicked spirits who left heaven, and were imprisoned by God.
(1 Peter 3:18-20) . . .He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. And in this state he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who had formerly been disobedient when God was patiently waiting in Noah’s day. . .

(2 Peter 2:4) Certainly God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned, but threw them into Tartarus, putting them in chains of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment.

(Jude 6) And the angels who did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place, he has reserved with eternal bonds in dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.

Sorry, but if you are going to use the Bible, you need to stick to what it says, not what you believe.
A dead person is not alive in another form.
If they are alive, then they are not dead.
If they are alive, they don't need resurrecting.
That makes sense, does it not?

 

[37818]

However salvation and eternal life are not the same.

To me as a Christian, having eternal life and salvation are to have the same thing. You cannot one without the other, Revelation 21:7-8.

Why do you think that Christians believing that they will have a physical body like Jesus is an essential of the faith?

It is considered an essentual teaching of Christ, Luke 24:39, 2 John 1:9, "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. . . ."

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

What is typically here not translated and a few other verses as well, "into the age [to come is to be understood]."

 

[Nivek001]

I do not interpret those verses to mean that the resurrection is a refining process. Rather, when the natural body dies it is raised as a spiritual body, so as soon as the natural body dies the soul leaves the natural body and becomes a spiritual body. After that the natural body is no longer invoked for anything, it returns to dust.

Paul said nothing about the fall and Adam being cast out of the Garden of Eden or that there was a refining process to undergo. He simply said that what was not at first spiritual was natural; and afterward it became spiritual.

I do not believe there is any such thing as a perfected immortal physical body. A physical body that is immortal is an oxymoron because NO physical body is immortal. Paul said "There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." Paul never said there is a hybrid kind of body that is both natural and spiritual.

That's right, as there is nothing physical in heaven so a physical body cannot exist in heaven. Only a spiritual body can exist in heaven, and that is why we are raised in a spiritual body when we die.

No, none of that is in the Bible, it is just a Christian doctrine. There are only two kinds of bodies, physical bodies and spiritual bodies. These beliefs in a physical-spiritual body are based upon the belief that Jesus rose from the dead and has a physical body that was a glorified incorruptible body. This is all a made up doctrine, it is not in the Bible.

There is no such thing as a immortal, and perfected physical body (incorrupt). That is logically impossible because all physical bodies are subject to decomposition.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" refers ONLY to spiritual life, NOT to physical life.
Physical resurrection of bodies from graves will happen to nobody, because man was never intended to live past his life span. Adam did not cause physical death for everyone who lived after him by disobeying God, Adam caused spiritual death by disobeying God. There would have always been physical death regardless of what Adam had done, since God designed our bodies to be mortal.

I agree we we all have an immortal souls, so all souls will continue to exist forever in the spiritual world in a spiritual body. Those would who were close to God will have eternal life which is a state of the soul that is close to God whereas those souls who are distant from God will not have eternal life, even though they will continue to exist in the spiritual world.

In the verses above, Paul was comparing physical bodies to spiritual bodies, saying that they differ, they have different kinds and different degrees of glory. The spiritual body is like the sun and stars because it has more glory; it is brighter than the moon, which only shines because of the light of the sun, not in its own right.

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in a corrupt physical body and it is raised in an incorrupt spiritual body.

I do not believe that the body of Jesus ever rose from the dead, so I believe that part of the scripture is just stories men told about Jesus. I do not have to reconcile a story that says that Jesus went to his apostles in a physically resurrected body and he put forth the effort to show his apostles that he was resurrected physically by letting his apostles handle him and eating food with them, not anymore than I have to reconciles a story in a novel that says that certain events took place.

HOW do you interpret the resurrection as only being the continuation of the spirit and has nothing to do with the physical body when Jesus went out of his way to show to his apostles that he had a living physical body by encouraging his apostles to handle him and eating with them?

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
(Luke 24:37-43 KJV)

Just because you interpret the resurrection to only be in a spiritual sense does not explain how your interpretation is valid when Jesus went out if his way to show his apostles that the resurrection was regarding his physical body.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(1Corinthians 15:22 KJV)
That does show Paul said something about being cast out if the Garden of Eden.

Paul points out that the fall of Adam, which involved being cast out if the Garden of Eden, brought death upon all of humanity. Because of that happens to everyone, no matter what we have done, Christ will fix that for all of us when we are resurrected. That is what I believe.

Also, where do you get that Paul didn’t teach about any refining process?

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judæa, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
(Acts 26:20 KJV)
If God had no refining process in his plan for us why did Paul teach that we should repent and turn to God?

The physical was referring to the natural physical state we all have in mortality which is to make mistakes or sin. To repent makes one come closer to God which deals with the spirit because our spirits continue after natural mortal bodies die.

Where is it taught that physical body he showed his apostles for them to handle was not perfect?

Peter taught that there is a spirit body that continued on after physical death (1Peter 3:18-20) showing that there were some spirits, who had died during the great flood, who were in a prison like state (Hell) in which Jesus taught to them between his death and resurrection.

Jesus did this BEFORE being resurrected on the third day. According to your take Jesus couldn’t do anything spiritually before being resurrected on the third day, and that does go contrary to what Peter taught.

And it was taught from Revelation Chapter 20:13 that after Christ’s 1,000 year reign that the dead from Hell would be delivered up for final judgement. Again, how could any of those in Hell before being given up for final judgement not exist if they were taught as spirits while being in prison as shown in 1Peter 3: 18-20?

Paul goes into further points on this in 1Corinthians 15 that in Christ shall all be made alive. That would include those from Hell who continued on with their spiritual bodies after they died physically during great flood.

HOW could you believe that we continue on as spirits immediately after we die when you figure that the resurrection is only a spiritual one? Even Jesus’s resurrection didn’t occur until the third day which would mean according to your take Jesus didn’t exist spiritually immediately after his death.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
(Revelation 20:5 KJV)

How could you believe that we all continue as spirits immediately after death, which makes one resurrected spiritually according to you, when for many that resurrection will not take place for quite some time?

Where does it say in 1Corinthians 15:40-43 that it was comparing physical bodies to spiritual bodies? If there is no physical resurrection there is nothing to compare a spiritual resurrection with. Your interpretation does not make any sense.

The mortal body is sown or laid to rest being corrupted it would and then it’s raised incorrupted or perfected like Jesus’s perfected physical body that Jesus invited his apostles to handle so they would know that he was resurrected physically as shown in Luke 24.

26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
(Job 19:26 KJV)

 

[Nivek001]

Okay. So all you had to say was that what you believe makes no sense,. That's all I was asking.

You believe that a dead is not dead. They can still act, though dead.
The Bible on the other hand does not teach that,
The scripture, 1 Peter 3:18, 19 says that Jesus was resurrected in the spirit, and in that state, after being resurrected, he preached to the spirits - not of the dead, but wicked spirits who left heaven, and were imprisoned by God.
(1 Peter 3:18-20) . . .He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. And in this state he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who had formerly been disobedient when God was patiently waiting in Noah’s day. . .

(2 Peter 2:4) Certainly God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned, but threw them into Tartarus, putting them in chains of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment.

(Jude 6) And the angels who did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place, he has reserved with eternal bonds in dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.

Sorry, but if you are going to use the Bible, you need to stick to what it says, not what you believe.
A dead person is not alive in another form.
If they are alive, then they are not dead.
If they are alive, they don't need resurrecting.
That makes sense, does it not?

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
(1Peter 3:20 KJV).

How could they have not been spirits who died during the great flood when of all the souls who were living at the time of the great flood only eight were saved? This is very specifically emphasized.

Where do you get that the angels who sinned against God ever got to be born in the first place? What do angels who are not shown in your cited verses to have ever been born to begin with have anything to do spirits who were shown to have been on the Earth at the time of flood where it specifically goes into that only eight souls survived?

Your cited verses don’t even show that any of the angels you are referring to were even on the Earth at the time of the great flood. Sorry, but if you are going to use the Bible, you need to stick to what it says.

You did not show any verses that specifically say that a person does not continue on as a spirit after physical death.

You did not show any verses that say if a spirit continues on after death that they are not in the meantime dead physically.

You also did not show any verses that say if if ones continues on spiritually after physical death that one does not need to be resurrected physically.

26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
(Job 19:26 KJV)

 

[cataway]

For those of you who believe in a physical resurrection, which body do you get? Do you get your aged aching body you died in, or the one where you were at your healthiest, or do you get a free choice, or some other answer?

in the resurrection you are alive again . why are you complaining ?

 

[Kenny]

No one knows everything, is true, but I don't believe the scriptures were recorded to put on a shelf and say, we can't know what its writings reveal. I believe what's recorded for us, at 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 Alll scripture is God breathed, and beneficial for teaching... for setting things straight... So that the man of God may be ... completely equipped for every good work.

So I believe what is writen, is not arbitrary, nor so difficult that it calls for debates that are inconclusive. I believe that the "my interpretation your interpretation" argument is really a Devil inspired design - one of his crafty designs (not directing this at you, but expressing the way I see it).
I see Satan sitting back and saying, "As. My seeds have grown nicely. Job well accomplished."
The way I see it, these scriptures, are not written for nothing. 2 Corinthians 4:3, 4 ; 1 Timothy 4:1, 2

I totally agree!! My application of what I meant is further below!

Evidently, the reason for the hundreds of diverse teaching, on very basic - from what I can see - teachings, is not a matter of mistaken ideas. The confusing exists because Satan is a liar - the father of the lie, the Bible says, and he hasn't stopped lying.
In fact he lies even moreso today, and he has more agents to use - Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works. (2 Corinthians 11:14, 15)

Think about it Ken. If Satan has not left the scene, why should we think that we are all on the same ship, traveling in the same direction, to the same destination... Or as some put it, different roads leading to the same destination?
Would that not be the same as saying, Satan isn't very powerful at all. Nor crafty... which is opposite to what Jesus said?
Sorry for that rant , but I think it's important we consider that.

Love it! And again totally agree! You can't make scriptures say anything you want

From reading the scriptures, it's evident to me that we can know the things we are discussing here, because they are written.
I agree with Martin Luther, who realized how easy it was for persons to apply a symbolic meaning to anything in scripture. In that way, the scriptures can mean anything one wants it to mean, as Atheists put it.

I believe that while symbolism is used in scripture, there are obvious markers where they do not apply... but who am I... Like you said, Jesus will sort that out.
The only thing about that is, if Armageddon comes and finds us on the wrong path the resurrection won't be our reward.
That's what I understand from scripture.
Feel free to express what you disagree with, as I am sure there is much.

So... one example of what I meant. When Jesus shared that there was a rich man and a poor man Lazarus and the rich man woke up in a place of torment while Lazaurs was in Abraham's blossom.

One group will say it is a parable and it is symbolism and the another group says that it was real. Each side convinced and supporting their position. If, as in other cases, the scriptures would have said, "And Jesus shared parable" - there would be no disagreement but it doesn't say that so you have "two interpretations".

Will ones view change ones eternal destiny? I don't think so. Does that mean one side is on the wrong path during Armageddon? No. IMV.

Will some be on the wrong path? Absolutely! Jesus said, "You called me Lord but I don't know you". On that issue it is so black and white there is no room for misinterpretation.

I hope that made it clear.

So... whatever the body is like, we all agree it is an eternal body and a heavenly body. Does that mean it isn't physical? We assume that somehow something physical translates that it isn't spiritual yet, as I see it, Adam's body was both physical and spiritual. I don't think that they are needed to be two separate entities but rather are one. When God created the earth in the light (God is light) - I see it as both spiritual and physical and since there was no sin there was no death.

Thus the need of a new earth.

I was asking someone earlier, how they arrive at their conclusions.
Do you think we should just state ideas without any scripture that says what we think Ken?
If we are teaching, which we are to use scripture to do, how can we do so by saying something but having no scripture that agrees?
Let's suppose you were saying what you just said to a group of youth, and they ashed you, "Where in the Bible does it say Christ was separated from God?" What would you say to them?
Remember, most people don't just want to hear, "I said it." or "I am the pastor." or "I believe it."

I never read any of that Ken. I would like to see wher you read it though.

No... I would never say "I am the pastor". And I never teach what I don't know too. I always say one of the best answers is "I don't know but I will study to find out" vs just sounding spiritual with a bad answer. It is too dangerous to play with spiritual lives.

I would say Jesus was separated from God because "the wages of sin is death" - separation from God. The only way Jesus could have died is by taking on our sin since he was sinless. When Jesus said "Why have thou forsaken me" - it was the first time he was without God's presence.

If Jesus was "the firstborn from the dead" - knowing that resurrections had happened in the TaNaKh so it couldn't be a natural resurrection, understanding that when Jesus said "You must be born again" speaking of our spirits, then we can understand that "the first firstborn from the dead" is speaking of his spirit and thus had to be separated from God Spirit.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit

(Wuest) Because Christ also died once for all in relation to sins, a just One on behalf of unjust ones, in order that He might provide you with an entree into the presence of God, having in fact been put to death with respect to the flesh [His human body], but made alive with respect to the spirit [His human spirit],

(ASV) Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit ;

(CEV) Christ died once for our sins. An innocent person died for those who are guilty. Christ did this to bring you to God, when his body was put to death and his spirit was made alive.

(HCSB) For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that He might bring you to God, after being put to death in the fleshly realm but made alive in the spiritual realm.

(WEB) Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit ;

(WNT) because Christ also once for all died for sins, the innocent One for the guilty many, in order to bring us to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit,

(YLT) because also Christ once for sin did suffer–righteous for unrighteous–that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit,

To be "made alive in the spirit" would mean that he would have to have been separated first. No need to "make alive" if he is already alive in oneness with God's Spirit.

This is all what you are saying Ken. We do hear a lot of pastors on radio, television... all preaching, and saying all sorts of things... but what does the Bible actually say?

Couldn't agree more. I turn off many programs.

Why do you think that Jesus' body was physical?

Again... I don't believe that when God made the physical earth that it was separated from the spiritual. It was sin that separated the physical from God's Spirit. IMU, I don't see anywhere that I would be wrong. When God creates a new heaven and a new earth... it will be back to His original purpose - complete union in and through Him.

Why do you think so?

" Or, on a more specific example, when Jesus said "Whether to forgive sins or say to this man 'take up your bed and walk" and strength came into his legs... the spiritual superseded the natural."

No sure how to address your question because I am not sure I understand. It is spiritual first and then natural. The Spirit of God created what we see in the natural. The spiritual realm is more powerful and more real because what we see is temporal (because of sin - when God cursed the ground).

Yes. So is there any reason why you don't think that Jesus was raised spirit, as the scriptures say, and manifested different physical bodies... as the scripture show, he appeared in multiple bodies - at least four - on different occasions?

What are your thoughts of the physical (pre-sin) and spiritual being one as God is in all and through all?

The previous manifestation of Christ was before "a body thou hast prepared" for me (Heb 10:5). To come into the world through the front legal door of Gen 1:26.

I have no reason to believe that after the resurrection both physical and spiritual are not one.

The scriptures does say that those who have the heavenly calling will have spirit bodies that are immortal - eternal - in the heavens. 2 Corinthians 5:1-5 ; 1 Peter 1:3, 4 ; 1 Corinthians 15:53

Agreed! But, at this point I still have the position that they are "bodies" that are "spirit-ual".

I believe that the Heavenly Temple is still very material (physical) and yet very spiritual.

 

[nPeace]

I apologize for the excess bold fonts. There seems to be a bug on RF, because I did not bold all these texts, and all of a sudden I look and see all this bold font. I really would like if it was not that way.

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
(1Peter 3:20 KJV).

Yes. That is what scripture says. They were disobedient.

How could they have not been spirits who died during the great flood when of all the souls who were living at the time of the great flood only eight were saved? This is very specifically emphasized.

Spirits who died? What do you mean?
I'm confused about what you are talking about.

1 Peter 3:18-20 - King James Version
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Let us read that in the way it is written, without the verse placements which were inserted for the sake of convenience.
...but quickened by the Spirit by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah

1 Peter 3:18-20 - American Standard Version
18 Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison, 20 that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:

We both agree the Bible says there were spirits that were disobedient. Is that correct?
Does the Bible tell us about disobedient spirits? Certainly.
I quoted the texts earlier, but I can do that again, with some additional, since I see what you have missed.

(2 Peter 2:4) Certainly God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned, but threw them into Tartarus, putting them in chains of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment.

(Jude 6) And the angels who did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place, he has reserved with eternal bonds in dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.

Did angels sin in Noah's day?
Genesis 6:1-4 - American Standard Version
1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters were born unto them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all that they chose. 3 And Jehovah said, My Spirit shall not [a] strive with man for ever, for that he also is flesh: [c] yet shall his days be a hundred and twenty years. 4 The [d] Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them: the same were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown.

Footnotes
[a] Or, rule in. According to Septuagint, Vulgate, and Syriac, abide in
Or, in their going astray they are flesh
[c] Or, therefore
[d] Or, giants. See Num. 13:33.

Sons of God
Job 1:6 - American Standard Version
6 Now it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, that [a] Satan also came among them.

Job 38:4-7 - American Standard Version
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Declare, [a] if thou hast understanding.
5 Who determined the measures thereof, if thou knowest?
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon were the [c] foundations thereof [d] fastened?
Or who laid the corner-stone thereof,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Sons of God are angels. Are they not?
Jesus himself is a son of God. Is he not?

Let us consider something else that is important here.
Strong's Greek: 2227. ζωοποιέω (zóopoieó) -- to make alive
◄ 2227. zóopoieó ►
Strong's Concordance
zóopoieó: to make alive
Original Word: ζῳοποιέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: zóopoieó
Phonetic Spelling: (dzo-op-oy-eh'-o)
Definition: to make alive
Usage: I make that which was dead to live, cause to live, quicken.

resurrect
/ˌrezəˈrekt/
verb
restore (a dead person) to life.

So we have the Bible saying that Jesus was made alive - resurrected. He was dead. Then he was made alive.
Jesus was not both dead and alive.
This is important for what follows.

Where do you get that the angels who sinned against God ever got to be born in the first place? What do angels who are not shown in your cited verses to have ever been born to begin with have anything to do spirits who were shown to have been on the Earth at the time of flood where it specifically goes into that only eight souls survived?

You do not think that angels were born before man. Seriously? I have never heard this before. Really, that is interesting.

Where did Satan come from, and what is he?
When do you think the myriad of angels Jesus refered to wer created?
(Matthew 26:53) Or do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father to supply me at this moment more than 12 legions of angels?
Where did Jesus himself - a son of God - come from?
(John 8:23) He went on to say to them: “You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world.

Do you mind my asking... Have you been reading the Bible for some time.
I am not trying to be demeaning, I am just interested to know if you are recently starting out studying, or if you are a long time student of the Bible.

 

[nPeace]

Your cited verses don’t even show that any of the angels you are referring to were even on the Earth at the time of the great flood. Sorry, but if you are going to use the Bible, you need to stick to what it says.

I did not quote the verses before, you are right. I just assumed you knew them. I always tell myself, "Don't assume" and here I am doing it.
I cited them above. There are more of course, but I didn't want to swamp you.
Thanks for the reminder.

“Sons of God.” Or, “godlike ones.” Heb., benehʹ ʼElo·himʹ; T, “the bands of angels”; See LXX, “my angels.”

Translations
Different source versions of Genesis 6:1–4 vary in their use of "sons of God". Some manuscripts of the Septuagint have emendations to read "sons of God" as "angels". Codex Vaticanus contains "angels" originally. In Codex Alexandrinus "sons of God" has been omitted and replaced by "angels". This reading of Angels is further confirmed by Augustine in his work City of God where he speaks of both variants in book 15 chapter 23. The Pe****ta reads "sons of God". Furthermore the Vulgate goes for the literal filii Dei meaning Sons of God. Most modern translations of Christian bibles retain this whereas Jewish ones tend to deviate to such as Sons of Rulers which may in part be down to the Curse of Simeon Ben Yohai who cursed anyone who translated this as "Sons of God" (Genesis Rabbah 26:7).

Beyond this in both the Codices Job 1:6 and Deuteronomy 32:8 when the phrase "angels of God" is used in place of where the Hebrew says "sons of God". For the verse in Deuteronomy the Masoretic Text does not say "sons of God" but "sons of Israel" however in 4Q37 the term "sons of God" is used. This is probably the root reading for the reading we see in the Septuagint.

You did not show any verses that specifically say that a person does not continue on as a spirit after physical death.

Thank you. I'll do that now.
I like the fact that you want to use the scriptures.
That's way better than just stating things as though they are actually "Gospel".

The spirits in prison are angels.
(Luke 8:30, 31) 30 Jesus asked him: “What is your name?” He said: “Legion,” for many demons had entered into him. 31 And they kept pleading with him not to order them to go away into the abyss.

(2 Peter 2:4) Certainly God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned, but threw them into Tartarus, putting them in chains of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment.

(Revelation 20:1, 2) 1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 He seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1,000 years.

The spirit in fleshly creatures returns to God.
(Ecclesiastes 12:5-7) 5 . . . man is walking to his lasting house and the mourners walk about in the street; 6 before the silver cord is removed, and the golden bowl is crushed, and the jar at the spring is broken, and the waterwheel for the cistern is crushed. 7 Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it.

It does not roam anywhere, nor is it an entity that can be put in prison.
◄ 7307. ruach ►
Strong's Concordance
ruach: breath, wind, spirit
Original Word: רוּחַ
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: ruach
Phonetic Spelling: (roo'-akh)
Definition: breath, wind, spirit

(Job 27:3) As long as my breath is within me And [רוּחַ ruach] spirit from God is in my nostrils,
Job 27:3 Parallel: All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

(Job 34:14, 15) 14 If he fixes his attention on them, If he gathers their [רוּחַ ruach] spirit and breath to himself, 15 All humans would perish together, And mankind would return to the dust.
Job 34:14 Parallel: If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
Job 34:15 Parallel: All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

(Psalm 104:29) When you hide your face, they are disturbed. If you take away their [רוּחַ ruach] spirit, they die and return to the dust.
Psalm 104:29 Parallel: Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

(Psalm 104:30) If you send out your [רוּחַ ruach] spirit, they are created,. . .
Psalm 104:30 Parallel: Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

(Isaiah 42:5) This is what the true God, Jehovah, says, The Creator of the heavens and the Grand One who stretched them out, The One who spread out the earth and its produce, The One who gives breath to the people on it And [רוּחַ ruach] spirit to those who walk on it:
Isaiah 42:5 Parallel: Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

You did not show any verses that say if a spirit continues on after death that they are not in the meantime dead physically.

The only scriptures that says what happens to the spirit in man, are the ones I quoted above.
They basically says the spirit is from God, and it sustains a breathing creature. When it goes out, it returns to God who give it, and when he does give it again life is created.

There are no scriptures that say the spirit in fleshly beings is an entity that communicates or lives in a realm.
Do you know of any? Please... I'd like to see them.

You also did not show any verses that say if if ones continues on spiritually after physical death that one does not need to be resurrected physically.

There are no verses that says life continues after death. Do you have one in mind? Please show it.
See above for the Greek expression used to refer to Jesus' resurrection. Do you disagree with the definition of resurrection, and what the scriptures say about Jesus being made alive?
What exactly are you in disagreement with, may I ask?

26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
(Job 19:26 KJV)

That is a beautiful scripture. The book of Job is a favorite of many, because it holds out a hope for those who died.
Job reasoned on his confidence in the resurrection.
He said... (Job 14:7-15)
7 For there is hope even for a tree. If it is cut down, it will sprout again, And its twigs will continue to grow. 8 If its root grows old in the ground And its stump dies in the soil, 9 At the scent of water it will sprout; And it will produce branches like a new plant. 10 But a man dies and lies powerless; When a human expires, where is he? 11 Waters disappear from the sea, And a river drains away and dries up. 12 Man also lies down and does not get up. Until heaven is no more, they will not wake up, Nor will they be aroused from their sleep. 13 O that in the Grave you would conceal me, That you would hide me until your anger passes by, That you would set a time limit for me and remember me! 14 If a man dies, can he live again? I will wait all the days of my compulsory service Until my relief comes. 15 You will call, and I will answer you. You will long for the work of your hands.

This is actually one of my favorite songs - He will call...
So yes, the scripture you quoted says Job will see God after he is called from the grave - resurrected.
Job did not contradict himself, nor the entire Bible, that says, man returns to the dust. So what flesh do you think lives on?
Job had confidence that after he closed his eyes, he would be like the an old dried up stump of a tree in the ground, resting until he gets the scent of water, to be revived, ang grow into a new tree.
That's the beautiful resurrection hope held out to those who leave false religion, with their false religious ideas.

 

[metis]

For those of you who believe in a physical resurrection, which body do you get? Do you get your aged aching body you died in, or the one where you were at your healthiest, or do you get a free choice, or some other answer?

Hello, my name is George Clooney, and I want to have a body like metis' because it and he is sooooo sexy!

 

[Trailblazer]

To me as a Christian, having eternal life and salvation are to have the same thing. You cannot one without the other, Revelation 21:7-8.

I guess you mean you have to be saved in order to have eternal life. Since I do not believe there is any original sin to be saved from, I do not hold that belief. The only thing we need to be saved from is our own lower selfish material nature, not some alleged sin of Adam and Eve. The way we are saved from self is by following the teachings and laws of the Messengers of God such as Jesus and Baha’u’llah. That is why Jesus said:

Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Trailblazer said: Why do you think that Christians believing that they will have a physical body like Jesus is an essential of the faith?

It is considered an essential teaching of Christ, Luke 24:39, 2 John 1:9, "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. . . ."

You said that the bodily resurrection is considered an essential teaching of Christ, but it is NOT even a teaching of Christ! It is a teaching of the Church based upon stories men wrote about Jesus long after He walked the Earth.

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

What does this verse have to do with Christians believing that they will have a physical body like Jesus?

And regarding making a big deal about a physical body rising from the grave, Jesus made it perfectly clear that flesh profits nothing. How do you reconcile worship on a fleshy body with what Jesus said about the flesh?

John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

But what is the doctrine of Christ? Verses need to be read in context in order to know what they mean. The doctrine of Christ is that we love one another and that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

2 John 1 King James Version

5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

The doctrine of Christ has nothing to do with Jesus rising from the dead. It is completely superfluous, as add-on by gospel writers, nothing Jesus ever said or did. In short, the bodily resurrection is just a story men wrote about Jesus, and it has nothing to do with what Jesus did or taught. What Jesus taught and how well we follow that is what saves us and bestows eternal life, not the belief that His body rose from a grave.

How can Christians believe that the physical body of Jesus matters when Jesus said in no uncertain terms that the flesh profits nothing? Do they even bother to think or do they just “believe” what they were told to believe by the Church? The physical body is not who we are, it is just a temporary vehicle that carries the soul around and allows the soul to express itself while we are living on Earth. When we die, our physical body will be dead and remain dead and we will be transformed. That means our soul will get a new body, a spiritual body, because our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, meaning that they cannot live in heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:35-58 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]

 

[Nivek001]

I apologize for the excess bold fonts. There seems to be a bug on RF, because I did not bold all these texts, and all of a sudden I look and see all this bold font. I really would like if it was not that way.

Yes. That is what scripture says. They were disobedient.


Spirits who died? What do you mean?
I'm confused about what you are talking about.

1 Peter 3:18-20 - King James Version
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Let us read that in the way it is written, without the verse placements which were inserted for the sake of convenience.
...but quickened by the Spirit by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah

1 Peter 3:18-20 - American Standard Version
18 Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison, 20 that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:

We both agree the Bible says there were spirits that were disobedient. Is that correct?
Does the Bible tell us about disobedient spirits? Certainly.
I quoted the texts earlier, but I can do that again, with some additional, since I see what you have missed.

(2 Peter 2:4) Certainly God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned, but threw them into Tartarus, putting them in chains of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment.

(Jude 6) And the angels who did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place, he has reserved with eternal bonds in dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.

Did angels sin in Noah's day?
Genesis 6:1-4 - American Standard Version
1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters were born unto them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all that they chose. 3 And Jehovah said, My Spirit shall not [a] strive with man for ever, for that he also is flesh: [c] yet shall his days be a hundred and twenty years. 4 The [d] Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them: the same were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown.

Footnotes
[a] Or, rule in. According to Septuagint, Vulgate, and Syriac, abide in
Or, in their going astray they are flesh
[c] Or, therefore
[d] Or, giants. See Num. 13:33.

Sons of God
Job 1:6 - American Standard Version
6 Now it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, that [a] Satan also came among them.

Job 38:4-7 - American Standard Version
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Declare, [a] if thou hast understanding.
5 Who determined the measures thereof, if thou knowest?
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon were the [c] foundations thereof [d] fastened?
Or who laid the corner-stone thereof,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Sons of God are angels. Are they not?
Jesus himself is a son of God. Is he not?

Let us consider something else that is important here.
Strong's Greek: 2227. ζωοποιέω (zóopoieó) -- to make alive
◄ 2227. zóopoieó ►
Strong's Concordance
zóopoieó: to make alive
Original Word: ζῳοποιέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: zóopoieó
Phonetic Spelling: (dzo-op-oy-eh'-o)
Definition: to make alive
Usage: I make that which was dead to liv, cause to live, quicken.

resurrect
/ˌrezəˈrekt/
verb
restore (a dead person) to life.

So we have the Bible saying that Jesus was made alive

Spirits who died are those spirits who once were alive at the time of Noah having physical bodies who then perished in the great flood.

Again, what does your cited verses in 2Peter, Jude 6, Genesis 6, and Job 1 have anything to do with Noah’s day and the great flood from which 1Peter 3:18-20 was referring to?

The point of Jesus preaching to the spirits in prison was referring to people who once had bodies who then died and those spirits continued on in some sort of restricted or prison state or in a damned state.

HOW could Jesus have taught these spirts as described in 1Peter if he wasn’t made alive u til third day?

Jesus doing that teaching happened between his death and resurrection. His resurrection didn’t happen until the third day. That does not fit at all with your interpretation of what being made alive according to the spirit means.

To be resurrected is only meant to be a spiritual one does not fit BECAUSE according to your definition Jesus couldn’t do anything until the third day since it wasn’t until the third day when he was resurrected. He couldn’t teach any spirts in prison BECAUSE according to you Jesus wasn’t made alive according to the spirit. That contradicts 1Peter 3:18-20.

Also, HOW does resurrection mean it’s just a spiritual one when according to your definition of resurrection means being restored to life? When physical death occurs the body loses function. So in order to be resurrected the function of the physical body has to be restored.

Also, HOW could the resurrection be only defined as a spiritual resurrection when according to you the spirit never came to life to begin with until after being dead physically? There is no restoration involved.

Just because you you never heard of the point that the angels God condemned never were given the opprotunity to be born begin with does not mean that didn’t happen.

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Lucifer was such a fallen angel. There is nothing shown that Lucifer was ever born physically.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
(Revelation 12:4, 7-10 KJV)

Describing the great dragon or Satan or the Devil had his angels and those verses shows that a third of all the angels in Heaven followed Satan or the dragon. Then there was a war between Satan and his angels against Michael and his angels. Satan and his angels did not prevail and were cast out into the Earth.

There was nothing showing that either Satan or his angels ever were born and so there is no connection between the angels you cited who were punished by God and the spirits in prison with whom Christ preached to in 1Peter.

I believe we existed as spirts before we were born into this world of mortality.

4 Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
(Jeremiah 1:4-5 KJV)

That shows an example of there was a state of existence for us prior to being born physically. God knew Jeremiah and had expectations of him prior to him being born physically, which also shows it’s possible for the rest of us who were born also existed as spirits prior to being born.

That also means that Satan and his angels also had existed spiritually. However, there was no showing that either Satan or his angels ever were born obtained any physical bodies when they were cast into the Earth.

Matthew 25:53 does not show that the angels Jesus could request from his father would also be angels with whom God punished and who were born. After all, a third of all angels would follow Satan and were cast out into the Earth with Satan.

What does how long one studies the Bible that have to do with the validity of what I presented. It’s either valid or invalid regardless of how long I have studied.

Also, what does John 8:23 have anything to do with Jesus visiting and preaching to those spirits in prison? After all, Jesus was from a realms above this Earth, but that didn’t stop him from living on this Earth in mortality where he preached and sacrificed himself.