For Christians ... a question I've had for a long time

[Trailblazer]

I can't comment on anything to do with someone called Baha'u'llah.

And you shouldn't unless you know who He claimed to be.

The bible is not about independent proofs - it's about faith, and learning
faith through obedience to scripture, and proving it for yourself.

Yes, I know that and I know that one can only prove beliefs to oneself.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

 

[Trailblazer]

I find we are nearing the soon coming ' glory ' time for Jesus according to Matthew 25:31-33.
Jesus then will separate the figurative sheep and goats.

I believe we have long since past that time because Christ already returned to Earth in the 19th century.
I believe that the process of separating the sheep from the goats began over 150 years ago when Baha'u'llah appeared.

The living 'sheep' can remain alive on Earth and continue to live on Earth and be here to see calendar Day One of Jesus' 1,000-year governmental reign over Earth for a thousand years before Jesus hands back God's kingdom (Daniel 2:44) to his God.
- see 1 Corinthians 15:24-26.

I believe that the living sheep will remain on Earth as long as they are living, but when their bodies die their souls will ascend to heaven and more people will be born. The process of separating the sheep from the goats will continue until everyone is sheep.

I believe that the Kingdom has always been God's Kingdom but humans were enjoined to build God's Kingdom on Earth as it is in heaven.

 

[Trailblazer]

Huh? to me God's purpose is clear at Genesis 1:28.
God has Not abandoned His purpose.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

The Earth has been populated even to the point of overpopulation so God's original purpose was accomplished long, long ago, and now God has a new purpose for humanity.

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it............”

The Promised Day is Come, p. 116

God’s Purpose

Jesus was clear at Matthew 5:5 when he referred back to Psalms 37:9-11,29.
Earth is to be filled with righteous people who will take care of the planet.
Doing so brings praise to God - Ephesians 1:12 - and the purpose of our existence.

Earth will be filled with righteous people who will take care of the planet when the Kingdom of God is built upon Earth.
That is God's Purpose for this age, that we become a new race of men.

“In this age humanity has strayed far from the path of truth, and the call of Bahá’u’lláh to recognize Him as the viceregent of God on earth has fallen on deaf ears. But a careful study of His writings leads us to believe that His Revelation, being the culmination of past Revelations and one which has ushered in the Day of God Himself, will exert such a potent influence upon mankind as a whole that eventually all the peoples of the world will recognize His station of their own free will and embrace His cause of their own volition. And this in turn will bring about, in the distant future, the appearance of a new race of men whose noble character and spiritual virtues we, in this age, are unable to visualize.” (AdibTaherzadeh, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh v 3, p. 3)

“With the establishment of the Most Great Peace and the spiritualization of the peoples of the world, man will become a noble being adorned with divine virtues and perfections. This is one of the fruits of the Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh, promised by Him. The nobility of man and his spiritual development will lead him in the future to such a position that no individual could enjoy eating his food or resting at home while knowing that there was one person somewhere in the world without food or shelter. It is Bahá’u’lláh’s mission to create such a new race of men.” (Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh v 3, p. 126)

New Race of Men

 

[Trailblazer]

Please notice Revelation 20:6

That is not evidence that Jesus will have a 1000 year reign because it is not about Jesus.

 

[Trailblazer]

Earthly subjects under Christ will be here on Earth from: sea to sea - see Psalms 72:8; 12-14.

Psalms 72 is about what God will do, not about what Jesus will do.

18 Blessed be the Lord God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things.

If Adam had Not broken God's Law then Adam would be here to day and could stay here on Earth forever and ever.
Earth wasn't meant to be a stepping stone to another place, that is why most people can gain everlasting life on Earth.

Adam would not have lived forever even if he had not broken God's Law because all humans are mortal so they will die eventually.
Everlasting life refers to a quality of life of souls who are near to God and one can have everlasting life on Earth and in heaven.
Earth is a stepping stone to another world that is far better than Earth.

 

[Trailblazer]

What then dwells on earth is: righteousness.( being made NEW free from wickedness )
That righteous heavens over earth is Jesus' millennial reign over earth for a thousand years.
At the end of the thousand years earth will be a paradisical earth as described at Isaiah 35th chapter.
Paradisical to the point that even ' enemy death ' will be No more on earth - 1 Corinthians 15:26.

That's all correct, but it won't be Jesus' millennial reign over earth for a thousand years, it will be Baha'u'llah's reign.

Mankind will have the original opportunity as offered to Adam before his downfall:
To live forever on Earth. That is God's purpose, His will for Earth.

No, it was never God's purpose that everyone who is born would live forever on Earth.
It was God's purpose that the living people would all become righteous, so when they die they will go to heaven. Then more people will be born who will become righteous and they will die and go to heaven. And that process of living and dying will continue to repeat itself as long as humans are alive on Earth.

 

[Tiberius]

Heavens in Scripture can refer to governmental heavens because governments are often lofty over people.

That REALLY sounds like a stretch to me.

 

[Tiberius]

Can you quote a scripture that says God created Adam to live forever in his physical body?
No. Then that claim is retracted then?

Genesis 3:19, where God makes it clear that returning to dust is part of the punishment he gives to Adam and Eve. If death is given by God as punishment in Gen 3:19, then it was not in the picture before that point. After all, who would punish someone with something that was already part of their life anyway?

 

[Trailblazer]

Genesis 3:19, where God makes it clear that returning to dust is part of the punishment he gives to Adam and Eve. If death is given by God as punishment in Gen 3:19, then it was not in the picture before that point. After all, who would punish someone with something that was already part of their life anyway?

Genesis 3

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Where in these verses did God make it clear that returning to dust is part of the punishment He gave to Adam and Eve? All God said is that Adam would return to the ground, but Adam would have returned to the ground anyway because all bodies return to the ground when they die.

If death is given by God as punishment in Gen 3:19, then it was not in the picture before that point. After all, who would punish someone with something that was already part of their life anyway.

But physical death was not given as the punishment because humans have existed for about 200,000 years on Earth, long before Adam and Eve, and death has always been part of the picture. Think about it. Had death not existed before Adam and Eve then the world would have been overpopulated long, long ago.

The punishment for Adam and Eve was spiritual death, which they never would have known if they had not disobeyed God. So what they lost was eternal life of their soul, because eternal life is nearness to God.

 

[Nivek001]

No, Nivek001, sorry I should've posted the verses, here they are:
Mat 27:52 Also the graves were opened, and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life;
Mat 27:53 and after Yeshua rose, they came out of the graves and went into the holy city, where many people saw them.

Okay, thanks for clearing that up. The event where those who came out of the tombs in Matthew 27 occurred on the day Jesus died which was before his resurrection.

It would be great if we could have received those accounts firsthand as well as received accounts as to what happened to those individuals who came out of those graves after that day.

However, as I stated before on the the belief that to actually overcome death itself to become immortal could not have been prior to Jesus’s resurrection. Then that would make those individuals who came out of those graves alive again but still mortal.

Eventually, they too, like the ones Jesus raised from the dead during his mortal ministry, would die again and remain deceased until the appointed time to become resurrected to immortality.

 

[Brian2]

John 5:28-29...”in the memorial tombs...shall come out...”

And don't forget Romans 8:23
Romans 8:23 Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

 

[Brian2]

I think I understand why you say the ^ above ^.
When the angels of Noah's day put on a materialized body they could eat and drink, etc. so could Jesus use materialized bodies.
So, the resurrected Jesus used different materialized bodies after he was resurrected as shown at Luke 24:13-43

Sounds like something that is nowhere in the Bible and you made up and that completely disagrees with the Biblical version of the resurrection of Jesus in His physical body which was transformed and made immortal and incorruptible.

His disciple thought the resurrected Jesus was a ' stranger ' at Luke 24:18,27
If he had his physical body he would have been recognized.

Read the scripture and notice that those disciples were kept from recognising Jesus.

Notice what was interesting at Luke 24:31 because the resurrected Jesus disappeared from them. The physical can't do that.

We don't know what the new body will be able to do. It is controlled by our spirit and so is called a spiritual body (not a spirit body).

I find Mary did Not recognize the resurrected Jesus thinking he was the gardener at John 20:15.
If he had his physical body she would have known it was Jesus.

I find Mary would have been crying probably and not expected Jesus (out of context) and it may still have been half dark early in the morning and she probably was not looking Him directly in the face. But she did recognise Him.

I think we can agree that ' flesh and blood' (physical) can NOT inherit the kingdom as per 1 Corinthians 15:50.
So, the ascension found at Acts of the Apostles 1:8 was Not a physical ascension to Heaven.
Physical does Not exist in the heavens, so Jesus appeared in front of his God in his before-coming-to-earth spirit body - Hebrews 9:24.

How can a mortal and corruptible body which will die again inherit the Kingdom? So Jesus was immortal and incorruptible.
Blood in the scriptures is used as a metaphor for corruption (as in the Nile turning to blood etc) As far as we know Jesus may not even have had blood in His resurrection body. It seems from Luke 24 that He still had gaping wounds with no bleeding.
Maybe His spirit with it's life, took the place of the blood which is the life of the natural physical body.

 

[Nivek001]

With all due respect I do not believe that the resurrection stories in the gospels are true stories so I do not believe Jesus ever said
"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."



I do not believe that the body of Jesus ever rose from the grave. I believe that the soul (spirit) of Jesus ascended to heaven right after He died on the cross and that is where Jesus exists now, in a spiritual body.

A physical body cannot reunite with a physical body because heavenly bodies (spiritual bodies) and earthy bodies (physical bodies) are two different kinds of bodies, as Paul said. Physical bodies are designed to live on earth and spiritual bodies are designed to live in the spiritual world (heaven).

1 Corinthians 15:35-58 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]

Read full chapter

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
(1Corinthians 15:42-44 KJV)

There it goes over the resurrection process as being a refining process. Also that the resurrection invoked both the physical and spiritual body.


45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
(1Corinthians 15:45-46 KJV)

Paul explains with Adam was first made a living soul having then not just a physical body but also a soul. Then Paul goes over that in the end after his fall and cast out of the Garden of Eden where he became subject to death there was a refining process to undergo.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
(1Corinthians 15:46-47 KJV)

The first is what is described as “natural” is the natural man. That is what we find in this life as being considered natural or earthly, which is that a natural or earthly man is a mortal man.

The second man is the Lord from heaven. That same Lord Jesus who appeared having a perfected immortal physical body that the apostles could physically handle. That same Lord Jesus who also ascended into Heaven with that same immortal body his apostles beheld and handled physically.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(1Corinthians 15:50 KJV)

One cannot return to heaven and be in a perfect state of happiness with God while in an imperfect mortal corrupt body(I.e. flesh and BLOOD). Like with Jesus Christ we have to go through a refining process. That involves us needing to have a perfected immortal physical body likened unto Jesus’s own perfected immortal resurrected body that his apostles could handle. A body of flesh and BONE.

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
(Luke 24:39 KJV)

The term “flesh and blood” is associated with a mortal physical body, which is subject to death (corrupted). The term “flesh and bone” is associated with a resurrected, immortal, and perfected physical body (incorrupt).

Paul went into saying that the resurrection will happen to everyone eventually.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (1Corinthians 15:22 KJV). That is because since physical death is not due to our fault it’s only fair that physical resurrection would eventually come to anyone who has ever lived no matter how righteous or wicked that person was.

Even though we all will receive immortality the quality of that immortal life will not be the same for everyone. That quality of immortal life we will receive will depend on what kind of a person we are in this life. As a result some people’s state of glorified immortal existence will be greater than others.

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption (1Corinthians 15:40-42 KJV)

If you do not believe in a physical body resurrection how do you reconcile the the point that Jesus went to his apostles in a physically resurrected body and he put forth the effort to show his apostles that he was resurrected physically by letting his apostles handle him and eating food with them as described in Luke 24?


You pointed out that you didn’t believe that account in Luke 24, but you failed to address why you do not believe that Luke 24 account is scripture.

 

[Kenny]

The question is - will it be physical? Will it have weight and mass? Will it obey Newton's laws of motion?

That is another good question. Scripturally no way to know. Guessing... it can be physical and have weight and mass and can work within Newton's laws of motion. Are the higher spiritual laws that can override Newton laws of motion? Like the law of lift that overrides the law of gravity? Maybe.

 

[roberto]

Okay, thanks for clearing that up. The event where those who came out of the tombs in Matthew 27 occurred on the day Jesus died which was before his resurrection.

It would be great if we could have received those accounts firsthand as well as received accounts as to what happened to those individuals who came out of those graves after that day.

However, as I stated before on the the belief that to actually overcome death itself to become immortal could not have been prior to Jesus’s resurrection. Then that would make those individuals who came out of those graves alive again but still mortal.

Eventually, they too, like the ones Jesus raised from the dead during his mortal ministry, would die again and remain deceased until the appointed time to become resurrected to immortality.

Nivek001,
I opened a new topic here about this resurrection ..> Was Yeshua the only resurected?

 

[37818]

That is what many Christians say about other Christians.
So what reason is there to believe that certain Christians have the answer and others don't?
After all, they are all reading from the same Bible.

Different presuppostions will cause different interpretations. There are essentuals were Christians will agree. And secondary beliefs which are not matters of salvation.

That in the believers resurrection having a physical body like Jesus is an essentual of the faith. But the question of the state of that body, some perfect state, young, old, with wounds from one's death, we are not told. This is a secondary matter.

 

[nPeace]

You mean like how can a person who has died and who appears to have a body but doesn’t have flesh and bones like what the apostles first assumed when they saw Jesus after his death do anything like move around and communicate with other spirits? Where do you get that a spirit cannot do those things?

1Peter 3:18-20 described Jesus between his physical death and resurrection where he continued to act as a spirit and preached to other spirits who apparently were also active as spirts otherwise they couldn’t have been preached to by Jesus. I have already pointed this out before.

I also pointed out what I believe resurrection to be, which is the spirit and the physical body reuniting. Casein point again is 1Peter 3:18-20 showing Jesus continued on as a spirit after he died physically. Also, in Luke 24 Jesus appearing to his apostles in a body of flesh and bone his apostles could handle. That shows then Jesus had received his physical body which reunited with his spirit which Jesus in both spirit and physical body appeared to his apostles.

Still trying to understand...
So walk me through in baby steps okay.
Did Jesus die?
When Jesus died, was he dead or alive?
If Jesus died, when was he raised up - 1st day, 2nd day, 3rd day, or no day?
Did Jesus appear to his disciples after being raised up?
If Jesus is not dead after he died, why would he need to be raised up?

I know the last one may sound confusing, but I am sort of trying to include what seems to be your idea.

 

[Trailblazer]

Different presuppositions will cause different interpretations. There are essentials were Christians will agree. And secondary beliefs which are not matters of salvation.

I can agree that secondary beliefs are not that important. However salvation and eternal life are not the same. Salvation implies that there is something to be saved from (original sin) and Paul spoke of that, whereas Jesus spoke of eternal life and said what we had to do to attain to that. Eternal life and everlasting life mean the same thing; they refer to a state of the soul that is near to God. you get near to God by knowing Jesus and believing in Him, so that is why Jesus said the following:

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 4:13-14 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Matthew 25:45-46 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

That in the believers resurrection having a physical body like Jesus is an essential of the faith. But the question of the state of that body, some perfect state, young, old, with wounds from one's death, we are not told. This is a secondary matter.

Why do you think that Christians believing that they will have a physical body like Jesus is an essential of the faith?
Where did Jesus ever say it was an essential? If He never said that it has to be Paul who said it and/or a doctrine of the Church. Why believe in doctrines or what Paul said if they are not anything Jesus ever said?

Where did Jesus ever say that Christians have to believe that His physical body rose from the dead in order to be saved?
If that was vital to salvation don't you think that Jesus would have mentioned it? But He didn't and in fact to my knowledge Jesus never even said anything about being saved, that was all Paul and the Church. I know that Jesus did talk of sin, because we all sin, but Jesus never spoke of any original sin we need to be saved from. That all came from a misunderstanding of the Adam and Eve story.

 

[nPeace]

That is interesting and certainly makes me think. As I said about the human resurrected body, it is all theological because it doesn't address exactly what it is.

The angels that visited Abraham manifested physically so you really make a good question.

Yes. They manifested in a physical body. That is clear. Even Jacob wrestled with one.

Is there a difference between a spiritual body and the human resurrected body? Don't know.

When people were resurrected, by Elijah, Jesus, Paul... they were raised in a physical body. We agree?
When Jesus was resurrected however, he was raised with a spirit body - his resurrection was different. He was the first person to be raised with a spirit body - immortal.

How do we know.
(1 Peter 3:18) He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit.
(1 Corinthians 15:45) The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
(Colossians 1:18) He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might become the one who is first in all things. . .
(Revelation 1:5) and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “the firstborn from the dead...
(1 Corinthians 15:22, 23) . . .so also in the Christ all will be made alive. But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence.

We can simply ask ourselves questions here.
How would you answer... Why is Jesus called the firstborn from the dead? Why is he the firstfruits of those made alive - raised up, or resurrected?

Are angels spirit bodies that can manifest physically? Apparently.

How do you understand that from a scientific perspective? Energy to matter?
Or do you prefer not to venture there?

Are the resurrected bodies of humans physically that can manifest spiritual? Definite maybe!

This one has got me.
Which scripture(s) lead you to this conclusion? I can't think of any.

Are they just like angels? Like I said... good question and I guess we won't really know until we get there.

Do you mean physical bodies?
I'll have to wait until you reveal where you find that idea.

One think for sure... they are eternal bodies

Again, I'm not sure what you are referring to.

Great question that made me really consider!

Great. I'm really looking forward to hearing more on the above.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I am sorry but the Bible never mentions physical graves in the ground. That's reading into the text what isn't there.

Trailblazer, when I replied “I’m sorry,” I didn’t mean to come across as sarcastic, that was not my intent. But I guess it sounded that way to you. I apologize.

The Bible has many instances of talking about literal graves. (Why would you say it doesn’t?) Here are a few:
Genesis 23:3-4
Genesis 35:20
Jeremiah 8:1
2 Kings 9:28
Mark 6:29
Matthew 23:27-29
Acts of the Apostles 2:29
1 Kings 2:10
2 Samuel 19:37