For Christians ... a question I've had for a long time

[URAVIP2ME]

................ I just do not believe that Christians know what God wants, what God's Purpose is for them..............

Huh? to me God's purpose is clear at Genesis 1:28.
God has Not abandoned His purpose.
Jesus was clear at Matthew 5:5 when he referred back to Psalms 37:9-11,29.
Earth is to be filled with righteous people who will take care of the planet.
Doing so brings praise to God - Ephesians 1:12 - and the purpose of our existence.

 

[nPeace]

Is there a scripture you have in mind that says the body has everlasting life?

The following verses refer to the everlasting life/eternal life of the soul. One reason we know that is because we know that the physical body was not designed to live forever.

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 4:13-14 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

I don't recall saying the body has everlasting life.
Everlasting life is promised to persons, not bodies.
The person that God give the body to, will live forever. Their body will not drop off. It sustained by the spirit which keeps it live, and breathing air on earth... forever... as long as they obey God.

Those scriptures you quoted all refer to persons. Do you agree then that a person is a soul, and do you agree that sould die, and do you agree that souls are resurrected in order to live again?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Evidence?

Please notice Revelation 20:6

 

[Nivek001]

Do you mean you see the verse as symbolic?
The verse which says he was put to death in the flesh... What does that mean to you?

Where did you wonder what I posted I was believing something symbolic? I was saying that’s what I believe what Jesus was actually doing between his death and resurrection.

Put to death in the flesh I believe was referring to physical death.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I see there are promises for the earth. Greening, peace etc..
WHILE THE EARTH IS STILL HERE.
For every quote for a renewed earth there's a quote for the
end of this earth. Reconciliation is the key here. I suspect
you don't believe in the Christian New Testament.

End of Earth's badness. Not the planet.
Please notice 2 Peter 3:5; 2 Peter 3:7; 3 Peter 3:13.
Heavens in Scripture can refer to governmental heavens because governments are often lofty over people.
At 2 Peter 3:5 we find the heavens and earth of OLD ( Noah's day )
At 2 Peter 3:7 we find the heavens and earth of NOW Meaning from Noah's day to our day.
At 2 Peter 3:13 we find the heavens and earth.
What then dwells on earth is: righteousness.( being made NEW free from wickedness )
That righteous heavens over earth is Jesus' millennial reign over earth for a thousand years.
At the end of the thousand years earth will be a paradisical earth as described at Isaiah 35th chapter.
Paradisical to the point that even ' enemy death ' will be No more on earth - 1 Corinthians 15:26.

 

[Trailblazer]

What natural law would God be breaking?

Decomposition is the natural process by which large organic materials and molecules are broken down into simpler ones. The ultimate products of decomposition are simple molecules, such as carbon dioxide and water.
Decomposition - Process, Organic, Soil, and Humus - JRank Articles

There are higher forms of energy and there are different forms of matter.
Why does God have to break a law to use a higher form of energy to transform into a form of matter that does not decay?

God will transform us into a form that does not decay but it will not be physical matter since physical matter is subject to decomposition.

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.”
Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

Are you saying God is limited to only what you know?

Of course not.

 

[Nivek001]

They all have bodies. It's just that they are spirit bodies, as opposed to physical bodies which earthling creatures have.
(1 Corinthians 15:40) . . .And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort.

On what do you base your beliefs though. Do you let the sciptures give you the answer, or do you go by what you feel?
What does the scriptures tell us about angels?
(Hebrews 1:7) . . .he says about the angels: “He makes his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.”

Does that affect your belief, or do you still think what you believe is correct?

There are physical bodies and I believe there are spiritual bodies. Spiritual bodies are not touchable. Physical bodies are.

For us mere mortals I believe we have both a physical body and a spiritual body. When physical death comes the spiritual body and the physical body separate. When resurrection happens the spiritual body and physical body reunite.

Angels I believe could either have both a physical body and spiritual body that have been reunited because they have been resurrected, or have yet to be resurrected so in the meantime only have their spiritual body.

1Corinthians 15:40 I believe deals with what kind of resurrected existence we will have after the final judgement. Depending how well we lived our mortal life we will obtain whatever level of glorified existence. That could be if not so well a life we lived would be only a glimmer if glory like distant star light, if we lived somewhat better mortal life a more glorified existence like the light given from a full moon. However, if one exist a most exemplary life one’s glory when resurrected their existence would be like sunlight.

 

[nPeace]

I fully agree. It is not about what we want, it is about what God wants. I just do not believe that Christians know what God wants, what God's Purpose is for them.

God’s Purpose

It's not about what you believe either. God had the Bible written in order that people can come to an accurate knowledge of truth.
(2 Timothy 3:16, 17) 16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

The reason you do not know what God wants is not because you can't know.
You are quite a puzzle to me though Trailblazer. For a person that preaches so often on every thread you visit, about messengers of God, and the infallible Bahaullah, to say you don't know what God wants, causes me wonder... Why speak about Bahaullah being a messenger of God for the end times?

If Bahaullah is/was a messenger of God, and 3500 years from Moses, and nearly 2000 years after Christ, and you still don't know what God wants, don't you think it's about time you hang up your "pistols"? This messenger business doesn't seem to be doing anything for you.

Do you have an explanation for that lack?

 

[nPeace]

Evidence?

Revelation 7:9-17 ; Proverbs 2:21, 22 ; 1 John 2:17 ; Psalms 37:34

 

[Trailblazer]

Can you quote a scripture that says God created Adam to die?
No. Then that claim is retracted then?

Can you quote a scripture that says God created Adam to live forever in his physical body?
No. Then that claim is retracted then?

No scripture says that either Trailblazer.
The saints, or holy one will receive immortal spirit bodies.
That has nothing to do with you.

Show me any scripture that says that ONLY the saints or holy ones will receive immortal spirit bodies.
Show me any scripture that says that everyone else will rise from the dead and have physical bodies.

Besides, you are not Christian, and you don't consider the Bible to be accurate, and not free from fraud, so I don't understand why you are quoting Paul, and including yourself in what he says.
Am I mistaken...Were you not one that said Paul was against what Jesus said... Or am I confusing you with someone else?

In some cases, Paul changed what Jesus taught, such as saved by grace alone, but that does not mean that everything Paul said was incorrect.

It's good to hear you say you understand that.
So then because you are tired of earth and want to go to heaven, does not mean that will happen, agreed?

So then because you like Earth and do not want to go to heaven, does not mean that will happen, agreed?

...because God never purposed that... as my friend @URAVIP2ME has clearly shown in the scriptures.

Give it up for lost. God never purposed that humans would live past their normal life spans or rise from physical graves after they were dead and buried. God never purposed that dead people would rise from their graves and live on Earth forever. That is not in the Bible, those beliefs are based upon JW doctrines that came about from a gross misinterpretation of Bible verses slapped together so JWs could believe what they want to believe and live on Earth forever. But it ain't happening and you will find that out when you die and pass on to the spiritual world. Till then you can retain your fantasy but don't expect me to remain silent about it when it is posted to me.

 

[PruePhillip]

End of Earth's badness. Not the planet.
Please notice 2 Peter 3:5; 2 Peter 3:7; 3 Peter 3:13.
Heavens in Scripture can refer to governmental heavens because governments are often lofty over people.
At 2 Peter 3:5 we find the heavens and earth of OLD ( Noah's day )
At 2 Peter 3:7 we find the heavens and earth of NOW Meaning from Noah's day to our day.
At 2 Peter 3:13 we find the heavens and earth.
What then dwells on earth is: righteousness.( being made NEW free from wickedness )
That righteous heavens over earth is Jesus' millennial reign over earth for a thousand years.
At the end of the thousand years earth will be a paradisical earth as described at Isaiah 35th chapter.
Paradisical to the point that even ' enemy death ' will be No more on earth - 1 Corinthians 15:26.

So how come the heavens and earth fleeing from the face of God?
And there shall be no more sea
Nor sun, for God lights us
The elements shall melt with fervent heat

The earth of itself cannot last forever - science tells you that. The earth we see is just for a fleeting
moment, geologically/astronomically speaking, before it all changes with continents, climate, aging
sun, stars rushing away from us etc.. Your view of a righteous earth reminds me of the Jehovah
Witness doctrine where there's a perfect earth and 144,000 live in heaven.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't recall saying the body has everlasting life.
Everlasting life is promised to persons, not bodies.
The person that God give the body to, will live forever. Their body will not drop off. It sustained by the spirit which keeps it live, and breathing air on earth... forever... as long as they obey God.

Yes, that person will live forever in a spiritual body as Paul said, not in a natural (physical) body.
The body will be sustained by the spirit which keeps it live, and breathing air on earth until the end of its physical life span -- which is not forever, since no physical body lives forever.

Those scriptures you quoted all refer to persons. Do you agree then that a person is a soul, and do you agree that souls die, and do you agree that souls are resurrected in order to live again?

The soul cannot ever die since it is immortal and immaterial.
Below is what I believe happens when the physical body dies, written by a Christian.
In this quote, when he refers to the spirit it means the same thing as the soul, since the human spirit is a soul.

The Resuscitation of Man from the Dead and His Entrance into Eternal Life

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351

 

[Trailblazer]

For us mere mortals I believe we have both a physical body and a spiritual body. When physical death comes the spiritual body and the physical body separate. When resurrection happens the spiritual body and physical body reunite.

That's not what this Christian believes. Why the discrepancy?

The Resuscitation of Man from the Dead and His Entrance into Eternal Life

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351

 

[Trailblazer]

Your view of a righteous earth reminds me of the Jehovah
Witness doctrine where there's a perfect earth and 144,000 live in heaven.

I think he is a JW.

 

[nPeace]

Where did you wonder what I posted I was believing something symbolic? I was saying that’s what I believe what Jesus was actually doing between his death and resurrection.

Sorry if I misunderstood what you are trying to say.
You said... I believe those verses described what Jesus was doing between his death and resurrection.
Between death and resurrection cannot be alive.
So Jesus would either have to be acting in death - dreaming, or symbolically dead.
So I am not following, sorry.

Was Jesus dead before he was raised?
Did he preach to the spirits after being raised, or while dead?
I understand the scripture says. He was quickened, or made alive in the spirit, and in this state - alive in the spirit, he preached to the spirit that were in prison.

Tell me something though @Nivek001, how do you use he Bible? Do you read it, and then go with your view on what you think it says?
I think this is a very pertinent question, because the verses read... "And in this state he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who had formerly been disobedient when God was patiently waiting in Noah’s day, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water. (1 Peter 3:19, 20)

You came to the conclusion that those spirits are spirits of people that died in the flood.
What led you to that conclusion? Is it your own beliefs? Because, there is no scripture that says the people that drowned in Noah's day, survived in spirit form.
Moreover, there is no scripture that says a dead person has a living spirit anywhere on earth or in heaven.

What sheds a clear light on that scripture, is other scriptures, and this is how scripture i understood, and prevents confusion from personal ideas and views.

(2 Peter 2:4) Certainly God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned, but threw them into Tartarus, putting them in chains of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment.

(Jude 6) And the angels who did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place, he has reserved with eternal bonds in dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.

Those two scriptures leave no unanswered questions as to whom the spirits that Jesus preached to were.
They were the angels that sinned in Noah's day, resulting in the wickedness that ruined the earth. (Genesis 6:1-4)

Even the demons in Jesus day feared being imprisoned by him.
(Matthew 8:29) . . .And look! they screamed, saying: “What have we to do with you, Son of God? Did you come here to torment us before the appointed time?. . .
(Luke 8:31) . . .And they kept pleading with him not to order them to go away into the abyss.

When we get the answer from the Bible, our thoughts don't send us on a wrong path.

Put to death in the flesh I believe was referring to physical death.

Thanks. So we read the scripture as it is then... He was put to death in the flesh, and made alive in the spirit.
ζῳοποιέω - zóopoieó - to make alive (I make that which was dead to live, cause to live, quicken.)

Jesus was killed while he was flesh, but God raised him as a spirit.
Is that not right?
In that state - as a spirit - he visited the wicked spirits in prison. Why? Some imagine it involves repentance, but the scripture do not say that.

 

[Trailblazer]

The reason you do not know what God wants is not because you can't know.
You are quite a puzzle to me though Trailblazer. For a person that preaches so often on every thread you visit, about messengers of God, and the infallible Bahaullah, to say you don't know what God wants, causes me wonder... Why speak about Bahaullah being a messenger of God for the end times?

If Bahaullah is/was a messenger of God, and 3500 years from Moses, and nearly 2000 years after Christ, and you still don't know what God wants, don't you think it's about time you hang up your "pistols"? This messenger business doesn't seem to be doing anything for you. Do you have an explanation for that lack?

There is no lack. I do know what God wants for this age because that was revealed by Baha'u'llah in His Writings.
The reason you do not know what God wants for this age is because you can't know without referring to what Baha'u'llah wrote.

 

[Trailblazer]

nPeace said: ...here to see calendar Day One of Jesus' 1,000-year governmental reign over Earth...

Trailblazer said: Evidence?

nPeace said: Revelation 7:9-17 ; Proverbs 2:21, 22 ; 1 John 2:17 ; Psalms 37:34

Revelation 7:9-17

Those verses are not about Jesus. They are about Baha’u’llah. For Christians everything in the Bible is about Jesus, but the problem is that the Bible is not ALL about Jesus. All the prophecies that refer to the return of Christ are about Baha'u'llah.

None of the following verses have anything to do with Jesus having a 1,000 year governmental reign over Earth.
Do you see the name Jesus in any of these verses?

Proverbs 2:21, 22 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it. But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.

1 John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Psalms 37:34 Wait on the Lord, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Moreover, there is no scripture that says a dead person has a living spirit anywhere on earth or in heaven.

There is one:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

But there is not even one scripture that says that physical bodies will rise from graves and live on Earth forever.

 

[Kenny]

So you are saying the angels had physical bodies?

That is interesting and certainly makes me think. As I said about the human resurrected body, it is all theological because it doesn't address exactly what it is.

The angels that visited Abraham manifested physically so you really make a good question.

Is there a difference between a spiritual body and the human resurrected body? Don't know.

Are angels spirit bodies that can manifest physically? Apparently.
Are the resurrected bodies of humans physically that can manifest spiritual? Definite maybe!
Are they just like angels? Like I said... good question and I guess we won't really know until we get there.

One think for sure... they are eternal bodies

Great question that made me really consider!

 

[Kenny]

Yes and no. The bible speaks of a 1,000 year reign. And then the natural
world passes away. Heaven is something outside the realm of nature. The
bible is fairly clear on that - there's no sun, no sea and not even a mention
of birds, flowers, rainbows and things which populate religious books about
heaven.

It says there is a new earth... so we don't know if there isn't an ocean. And the light from the throne lights it all. Earth is a replica of Heaven (before its fall) so there is no reason to believe there aren't birds, flowers etc.