For Christians ... a question I've had for a long time

[Nivek001]

LOL...the ones you got wrong twice...have a look and see they are the ones you see "click to expand"
But no worries. These conversations have no point unless they are enlightening someone.....arguments for the sake of argument achieve nothing good IMO.

I’m on my I-phone. Anyhoo, I looked over what was posted. It didn’t look like anything significant. Too bad you didn’t respond to any of my questions.

 

[Deeje]

I’m on my I-phone. Anyhoo, I looked over what was posted. It didn’t look like anything significant. Too bad you didn’t respond to any of my questions.

Did you really want a response just so that you could argue some more? We have no beliefs in common and I rely on canonical scripture to furnish all of my beliefs.....I have no other books to fight with it or to plagiarize it. The book of Revelation says that we are not to add to scripture. (Revelation 22:18-19) And the apostle Paul warned that even if an angel was to deliver anything other than what was taught by Jesus and the apostles...."let him be accursed".

Galatians 1:6-9...
"I am amazed that you are so quickly turning away from the One who called you with Christ’s undeserved kindness to another sort of good news. 7 Not that there is another good news; but there are certain ones who are causing you trouble and wanting to distort the good news about the Christ. 8 However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond the good news we declared to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, I now say again, Whoever is declaring to you as good news something beyond what you accepted, let him be accursed."

You have the testimony of one man who claims to have had a visitation from an angel in the woods and who was given some golden plates......there is no proof that any of that actually took place, or that the peoples mentioned in the BoM ever existed.... perhaps it is all just the musings of a very mentally ill man.

Its a lot to stake your life on...but no matter...it is your choice. I have made mine.

 

[Nivek001]

Did you really want a response just so that you could argue some more?

Actually, I was just simply wanting you to answer my questions? It’s also still a shame you haven’t answered any yet.

Deeje said:
We have no beliefs in common and I rely on canonical scripture to furnish all of my beliefs.....I have no other books to fight with it or to plagiarize it.
Why do you only rely on what you call canonical scripture? How is what you refer to canonical scripture any more valid?

What books are plagiarized?

1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
2Corinthians 13:1 KJV

Isn’t it nice to have additional sources of scripture that act as additional witnesses to back up say what you call certain canonical scriptures to help settle doctrinal issues that are argued between denominations?

Deeje posted:
The book of Revelation says that we are not to add to scripture. (Revelation 22:18-19) I

Is that for all scriptures or is it just for the Book of Revelation?

2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you. Deuteronomy 4:2 KJV

If that meant for all scripture that would make any scriptures past the Torah not valid either. Perhaps that was just in regards to what was written in the Torah to not add or take away from the Torah. It wouldn’t be until the fourth century until it was settled that Revelations would be the last book placed in the New Testament.

Deeje said:
And the apostle Paul warned that even if an angel was to deliver anything other than what was taught by Jesus and the apostles...."let him be accursed".

It’s a good thing then that I believe there are additional apostles and prophets that we have today to give modern day guidance.

7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
Amos 3:7 KJV

Deeje posted;
Galatians 1:6-9...
"I am amazed that you are so quickly turning away from the One who called you with Christ’s undeserved kindness to another sort of good news. 7 Not that there is another good news; but there are certain ones who are causing you trouble and wanting to distort the good news about the Christ. 8 However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond the good news we declared to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, I now say again, Whoever is declaring to you as good news something beyond what you accepted, let him be accursed."

I agree and it’s great that The Book of Mormon backs up and clarified the disputed interpretations that are within the Good News of The Bible.

Deeje said:
You have the testimony of one man who claims to have had a visitation from an angel in the woods and who was given some golden plates......there is no proof that any of that actually took place, or that the peoples mentioned in the BoM ever existed.... perhaps it is all just the musings of a very mentally ill man.


Well, just like there is no proof that there is a resurrection either physical or spiritual for the whole world to see, or that there even is a God whose teachings involve reliance of faith in him instead of relying on established evidence for the whole world to see.

It takes acts of faith to find out if what I believe in is true. (James 1:5-6). To study, to apply what is taught, and asking God in prayer if what I believe in is true and see if one receives an assurance that it is true that comes from The Holy Ghost. ( John 14:26, Galatians 5:22-23)(Book of Mormon; Moroni 10:3-5)

Its a lot to stake your life on...but no matter...it is your choice. I have made mine

I agree, it’s allot; especially when what I believe in I believe it to be true. So if there is a third party who wants to find out if my beliefs are actually true there is only one way to find out..

 

[Deeje]

@Nivek001 could you please learn to use the quote system....?

 

[Nivek001]

@Nivek001 could you please learn to use the quote system....?

Where’s the problem?

Also, why haven’t you answered any of my questions?

 

[Brian2]

I find if we continue reading past verse 28 to John 20:31 John concludes that he believes Jesus is the Christ (Messiah) the Son of God.
Please also notice before verse 28 at John 20:17 because Jesus earlier already said there that he would ascend to his God.
The resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him according to Revelation 3:12.
So, what doubting Thomas said is similar to what we hear people say in front of a news reported when they say, " oh my God "
We know the person is not believing the reporter is God but we understand the exclamation.

There would have been no such exclamation in ancient Israel. It would be blasphemy. That exclamation is from these days.
Thomas called Jesus God, that simple. and John 20:31 thrown in indicates that being the Son of God makes Jesus God. That makes sense when we consider that the Son has the same nature as His Father just as any other father and son. Jesus is unique because He is the only son who was not created even if He did step into creation to become a man. When He stepped into creation, that is when His Father became His God. (see Psalm 22:10 for evidence of this)
Being a man and still being a man now means that His Father is still His God even now.

Yes, Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever - Hebrews 13:8
Jesus was and always will be the beginning of the creation by God as John wrote at Revelation 3:14 B
Pre-human heavenly Jesus was God's Son, earthly Jesus was God's Son, the resurrected Jesus is still God's Son - Hebrews 9:24

ALL things that have been brought into existence were brought into existence through Jesus. (John 1:3) That is what the scripture says without alterations. Jesus was not created, He always has been the Son just as the Father has always been the Father.
Rev 3:14 has been altered by the NWT subtly also. "by" should not be there. "by" being there means that the true meaning of the passage is harder to see. The true meaning being that He is the ruler of the creation of God. This meaning does not end up contradicting other scriptures to the extent that the other scriptures need to be changed to agree with it. (as in Col 1:15-17 and other places) a creation which Jesus Himself along with His Father had a hand in creating according to the scriptures. Everything came into being through Jesus AND through the Father.
Romans 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?”
35 “Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?”
36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever.

Yes, 1 Timothy 2:5 there is only one Mediator. Jesus is the 'go-between ' God and us.
One God, one Mediator. Does Not say God is Mediator.

1Tim 2:15 does actually say that the mediator is a man,,,,,,,,,,,,,,still.

 

[Deeje]

Where’s the problem?

Also, why haven’t you answered any of my questions?

 

[Brian2]

Did you really want a response just so that you could argue some more? We have no beliefs in common and I rely on canonical scripture to furnish all of my beliefs.....I have no other books to fight with it or to plagiarize it. The book of Revelation says that we are not to add to scripture. (Revelation 22:18-19) And the apostle Paul warned that even if an angel was to deliver anything other than what was taught by Jesus and the apostles...."let him be accursed".

Scripture canonised by Christendom.
And be careful about what you say to people about preaching a different gospel, you may be condemning yourself.
That said, I agree with you about the message brought by Joseph Smith.

 

[Deeje]

Scripture canonised by Christendom.

Not really....it is God's word, not the work of men. He can use whomever he wants to compile its contents, but I can assure you that not a word was written by a single person in Christendom. If he inspired its contents, then he can preserve its accuracy.

And be careful about what you say to people about preaching a different gospel, you may be condemning yourself.

Jesus was such a person, so we have a good role model. Why do you think the Jews hated him? (John 15:18-21)

That said, I agree with you about the message brought by Joseph Smith.

I am grateful for any points of agreement....

 

[Brian2]

Not really....it is God's word, not the work of men. He can use whomever he wants to compile its contents, but I can assure you that not a word was written by a single person in Christendom. If he inspired its contents, then he can preserve its accuracy.

And God can use a witch to talk to Saul through a prophet, and God can use Satan also for His purposes, as in Job and even now with what happens in our history.
The Bible seems to be getting more accurate as scholars dig into the history of it and realise it has been changed and added to, and try to correct that. So it has not been accurate all the way along it seems.
But it seems to have been accurate enough to say that the addition of "Jehovah" wherever the Watchtower deems fit in the New Testament is changing the scriptures without authority except from the Watchtower itself.
Other changes can also be cited.

 

[Nivek001]

Well, nothing brings about open discussion quite like going out your way to make sure one knows you refuse to have any further open discussion.

I appreciate your honesty.

 

[37818]

You fail to understand John 20:28. So it is you do not understand.

Does Not say God is Mediator.

It is written, "Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one." I cannot cause you to hear and to understand what you do not want to hear. Understand the Man Jesus is the sole access to God. John 14:6.

 

[37818]

There will be no second appearance of Jesus in the same body.

You do not believe what I understand to be true. Acts 1:11, ". . . this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

 

[soulsurvivor]

So, people who are resurrected to life on Earth are the terrestrial.
People who are resurrected to life in Heaven are the celestial.

Does this mean that 'people who are resurrected to life on Earth' remain on Earth forever or does the resurrected body on Earth eventually die?

 

[Nivek001]

There is no proof that Jesus was not physically resurrected but there also is no proof that He was, so why should I believe He was?

There is also no proof that there is no resurrected God who wants us to rely on faith instead of relying on established evidence as well. Why should you conclude that Jesus was not physically resurrected?

Trailblazer said:
It is because of my Baha’i beliefs that I know that Jesus was not physically resurrected:

How does your Baha’i belief bring you actual knowledge Jesus was not physically resurrected?

Trailblazer posted;
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Why do you think that Paul was referring to Adam dying in the Garden of Eden? Again, my beliefs regarding the meaning of that verse are explained on this link:

Because I studied the teachings and like my scriptures invite me to know for myself if what is taught regarding Jesus Christ is true or not by taking a leap of faith and ask my God in prayer if he is really there and if what I was learning is true. I received a deep sense of assurance unlike anything else I have experienced so far. As a result I concluded that the God I prayed to us there and that the teachings regarding his son Jesus Christ is true.

Trailblazer posted:
29: EXPLANATION OF VERSE TWENTY-TWO, CHAPTER FIFTEEN, OF THE FIRST EPISTLE OF ST. PAUL TO THE CORINTHIANS
Why do you believe that what happened in the Garden of Eden with Adam resulted in all of us physically dying?

Again, I took a leap of faith and and asked God if the teachings I learned regarding, that includes what is believed regarding Adam and the Garden of Eden to be true. As a result I received a deep sense of comforting assurance unlike anything I experienced before that it was and is true.

Trailblazer posted:
Every human born is subject to death and has been long before Adam and Eve, since some form of humans have existed on earth for 200,000 years. People are born and then they die, because God made our bodies that way, as mortal.
Read these verses. It was only AFTER God delineated all the punishments for eating the fruit from the tree that God said that Adam would return to dust!
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
How could anyone with any logical abilities believe that returning to dust was part of the punishment?!

I agree that it was after God decreed what was to become of Adam and Eve that he decreed unto dust they shall return.
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis 2:17 KJV.
However, it was forewarned to Adam and Eve that if they do eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they would surely die.
Apparently, that was something that Adam didn’t want, but he also saw that it was necessary to eat if the fruit.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
Genesis 2:24-25 KJV
Adam could no longer fulfill the commandment of being united with his wife if she left the Garden of Eden. Also, before they ate of that
fruit to remain with his wife and to bring forth humanity upon the earth.
They were in a state of innocence like little children in The Garden of Eden. In their state ignorance and innocence they were not able to procreate while in their state in the Garden of Eden as well.

Trailblazer posted;
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

I believe that Jesus’s work regarding his atoning sacrifice was complete then. Where does it say that Jesus completed all of his work and that there would be no more jobs ahead?

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

The hundred-dollar question is what makes Christians believe that Jesus is coming back to this world to do more work, as that is NOT supported by the Bible. Not only did Jesus say He is NOT coming back in the following verses, but there are NO verses that say that Jesus IS coming back

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

Where do you get that if it’s out of sight then it will not happen? People turn a blind eye to things all the time.

Where does John 17:1 say that once he comes to the Father there would be no other work to do!

I do not believe Revelation is baseless but I also do not believe it is about Jesus returning. I believe it is about the coming of the Bab and Baha’u’llah, a messianic duo who inaugurated a new religious dispensation:

The Book of Revelation, Chapter 20: A Baha’i Interpretation
Trailblazer posted:
I do not see anything in Luke that addresses heaven and hell. I believe in the Baha’i definition because I am a Baha’i.

Why are you only looking at Luke in addressing Heaven and Hell? Luke isn’t the only gospel or book of scripture to look at.

What I believe is based upon the Revelation of Baha’u’llah. What you believe is based upon the Bible. Why would what you believe carry any more validity than what I believe?

It all boils down to whether Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be. If He was then certain things follow and it is a complete game changer for humanity even if they don’t believe it. All of the above also applies to me. I did not just believe what I do without investigating it thoroughly.

How does it all apply to you?

Trailblazer posted:
“I do not think that would ever work in reality because humans are all so different and their life situations are also very different, so what worked for you will not necessarily work for someone else. The best way to know if a religion is true is to look at all the supporting evidence.”

What supporting evidence is that? What evidence also proves there is no God who wants us to rely on faith in that God instead of relying on established evidence for the whole world to see?.

T

 

[nPeace]

LOL...the ones you got wrong twice...have a look and see they are the ones you see "click to expand"
But no worries. These conversations have no point unless they are enlightening someone.....arguments for the sake of argument achieve nothing good IMO.

The Pharmacists and Doctors may well disagree with you, Deeje.

 

[nPeace]

@Nivek001 could you please learn to use the quote system....?

I totally agree with that.
It's hard to follow, and requires more time and effort to double read your own quotes.

 

[nPeace]

Panadols? LOL.

 

[Deeje]

Well, nothing brings about open discussion quite like going out your way to make sure one knows you refuse to have any further open discussion.

I appreciate your honesty.

Kevin...learn to use the quote system. When you fail to do that, it makes replying twice as difficult as it needs to be.
If I hit the reply button there is nothing there......get with the program.....please.
I have better things to do than try to undo your mistakes.....sorry.

 

[Trailblazer]

You do not believe what I understand to be true. Acts 1:11, ". . . this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

The same Jesus in the same body is NEVER coming back to this world because His physical body died on the cross. Jesus now has a spiritual body in heaven, because that is the ONLY kind of body that exists in heaven, as Paul said:

1 Corinthians 15:40, 44, 50

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

Verse 50 means that dying bodies (physical bodies) cannot inherit what will last forever (heaven).

As an aside, the same Jesus in the same body is not coming back to this world unless the Bible has serious errors or unless Jesus lied: (John 14:19, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30, John 18:36)

If the Bible has these kinds of errors why should any of the other chapters and verses be trusted to be accurate, and if the Bible is not accurate, all of Christianity comes crashing down like a house of cards. This is a serious logical problem for Christians who believe that the same Jesus that walked the Earth 2000 years ago is going to return to this world.

Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

These verses say that the same spirit of Jesus that was taken up to heaven will return from heaven, from the heaven of the Will of God.

The disciples were staring up into the sky as the spirit of Jesus was taken up to heaven out of their sight. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky because they wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky. Then the angels told the disciples that the same spirit of Jesus that was taken up to heaven will return just as it went to heaven.

Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of the human temple. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, Jesus in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Baha’u’llah descended in like manner, from the heaven of the will of God.