For Christians and Muslims that Oppose Homosexuality:

[Penumbra]

Females normally have XX chromosomes and female primary and secondary sex characteristics.

Males normally have XY chromosomes and male primary and secondary sex characteristics.

This isn't always the case, though. There are intersexed people, because although we'd like to think of sex/gender as binary, it's not.

For some examples:

Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome:
The person has XY (male) chromosomes, but the cells are completely insensitive to androgens (male hormones). The result is that the person is born and appears to be female in terms of what's between her legs, usually develops a female gender identity, and grows up to look like a woman. Actually, they more often look like models than genetic females, because they're often tall and thin, have less hair than a genetic female (because even females have some testosterone and these people can't process it at all), and they develop female secondary sex characteristics of a woman (like breasts). In other words, they often appear even more feminine than genetic females. It's often impossible to know that the female child even has this condition until later in life unless they do a genetic test; she could grow up entirely as a woman and then be told later in life that actually she has XY chromosomes. The person can't give birth. The tend to have female gender identities due to lack of male hormonal effects on the brain and social conditioning, and are in most ways indistinguishable from genetic females.

Klinefelter Syndrome
The person has XXY chromosomes (compared to women that have XX and men that have XY). The person often appears to be a male, but has less testosterone and therefore develops fewer secondary sex characteristics of males. They tend to grow breasts and have some female secondary sex characteristics. So in terms of appearance, they're a mix between males and females. Treatment sometimes includes giving them testosterone to push their bodies more towards the male side. Often infertile.

Other Conditions
There are a vast number of conditions that can lead to a person being intersexed. There are a huge number of conditions where people with XY chromosomes are mostly like females, and some conditions where people with XX chromosomes are more like males. There are a variety of XXY, XO, XXXY, XYY, XXX chromosome possibilities that exist. There are individuals that have ambiguous genitalia. There are individuals with various hormonal influences. There are individuals with various gender identities (with the primary factor being hormonal influences in the womb). There are individuals with a variety of secondary sex characteristics.

.....

The prevalence of these individuals is hard to measure and depends partially on the definition since it's an umbrella of countless different medical conditions, but it's something like one in several hundred births. Millions of people worldwide.

The question to Christians and Muslims that believe homosexuality is a sin:

To what gender/sex should these individuals form sexual partnerships with to avoid the wrath, violence, or torture from Jesus and his father, or Allah?

 

[F0uad]

I don't belief there are such things as being born as a dual sex those syndrome's are rare and they still technically don't make you one or the other on the same time.
Even if you did a operation you are how you were created "born".

The Quranic verses do not say that there is any wrath, violence or torture against homosexuals or lesbians it simply says that it condemns the sexual behavior. I am also not sure how this question can only be asked to Muslims or Christians since there are Muslim and Christians homosexuals and lesbians on the world and there are Atheists and other religious people who oppose it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't belief there are such things as being born as a dual sex those syndrome's are rare and they still technically don't make you one or the other on the same time.

She just gave solid evidence it happens though, and that collectively they are really not that rare.

 

[Penumbra]

I don't belief there are such things as being born as a dual sex those syndrome's are rare and they still technically don't make you one or the other on the same time. Even if you did a operation you are how you were created "born".

So what sex is a person with XXY chromosomes with a combination of male and female secondary sex characteristics?

What sex is a person with XY chromosomes that is completely immune to testosterone from the womb and is born and raised looking exactly like a female and often not knowing she even has XY chromosomes until fertility or other internal issues come to notice?

These cases collectively are not that rare. It includes tens of millions of people worldwide.

The Quranic verses do not say that there is any wrath, violence or torture against homosexuals or lesbians it simply says that it condemns the sexual behavior.

Which type of sexual behavior does the Qur'an condemn from an XXY chromosomal male/female individual?

I am also not sure how this question can only be asked to Muslims or Christians since there are Muslim and Christians homosexuals and lesbians on the world and there are Atheists and other religious people who oppose it.

Atheists aren't against homosexuality for religions reasons. This is in the religious debates section. Also, it wasn't asked to all Christians and Muslims; it was asked to Christians and Muslims that oppose homosexuality and/or believe it's a sin. The subset of Christians and Muslims of the world that do not view homosexuality as a problem in the eyes of their deities are not the people I'm asking this question to, because the question would be irrelevant.

Some Hindus, Buddhists, and other religions don't believe homosexuality is moral but they also generally don't believe in deities that send people to hell for eternal suffering, so it's not really focused towards them.

Homosexuality is illegal in most Muslim countries. In western countries there is an increasing acceptance of gay marriage and acknowledgement of homosexuality as a normal variation of human sexuality and although there is some bigotry in the general population, the groups that tend to organize and opposite it politically are almost all Christian groups.

So that's why the question is directed towards the few billion Muslims and Christians of the world. This particular formulation of the question is only really applicable to people that apply bronze age writings to form moral or political arguments in the face of modern scientific information about sex and gender.

 

[Pegg]

not all homosexuals have a genetic abnormality...not all are born that way, there are many who do choose it.

But can i just ask that if is is known that the above abnormalities exist, then perhaps science will find a way to correct it? A bit of genetic engineering as they are currently doing with plants...do you think that would be a good thing?

 

[arthra]

"To what gender/sex should these individuals form sexual partnerships with to avoid the wrath, violence, or torture from Jesus and his father, or Allah?"

My view is that science can tell us about our genetic make up but it cannot dictate the choices we make.. Usually religion has standards about our behaviour. Also I don't agree that Jesus, His Father or Allah will "torture" someone.

 

[Penumbra]

not all homosexuals have a genetic abnormality...not all are born that way,

That's not what the OP is about.

The OP is not stating that homosexuals are intersexed. The majority of homosexuals and heterosexuals do not have genetic abnormalities or ambiguous genitalia or ambiguous gender or sex.

The OP is pointing out the problem of viewing gender or sex as a binary thing, because it's not. There are intermediate people. The concept of heterosexuality being acceptable and homosexuality being a sin according to bronze age writings becomes somewhat problematic when it is pointed out that there are a broad range of people that can not 100% be classified as either male or female.

there are many who do choose it.

That's not a particularly scientific statement.

But can i just ask that if is is known that the above abnormalities exist, then perhaps science will find a way to correct it? A bit of genetic engineering as they are currently doing with plants...do you think that would be a good thing?

Quite often, religious people disagree with the way doctors correct these things.

For example, research indicates gender identity cannot be changed. A person with Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome doesn't usually have much problem in life. She will often live as a happy (and beautiful) infertile woman with XY (male) chromosomes, and there's little medical science can do or should do to alter that.

An XXY person is generally transitioned towards maleness. It doesn't have to be that way though; they can go the other way as well.

For one thing, genes exist in every cell in the body. Science is nowhere near being able to change the genes throughout all cells in a body; whatever XX or XY or XXY or XYY or X or XXX or XXXY cells you are born with, you're stuck with for the foreseeable future.

Secondly, if a person has XXY, which sex should the person be changed to? XX or XY?

 

[Penumbra]

"To what gender/sex should these individuals form sexual partnerships with to avoid the wrath, violence, or torture from Jesus and his father, or Allah?"

My view is that science can tell us about our genetic make up but it cannot dictate the choices we make.. Usually religion has standards about our behaviour.

What standards does your religion have for an individual with XXY chromosomes and both male and female physical characteristics? Which type of people can they form sexual partnerships with without violating those standards?

Or an individual with XY chromosomes with immunity to testosterone that appears in all ways to be a female and may not even realize what her chromosomes are until later in life? What are your religious standards for her?

Also I don't agree that Jesus, His Father or Allah will "torture" someone.

This is why the word "or" was specifically used in the sentence.

"To what gender/sex should these individuals form sexual partnerships with to avoid the wrath, violence, or torture from Jesus and his father, or Allah?"

If you don't believe homosexuality is wrong, or don't believe it will be punished by your deity, then it's not directed to you. And if you do believe it's to be punished (due to the OT deity character calling it an 'abomination' and worthy of the death penalty), then it doesn't say wrath, violence, AND torture; it says wrath, violence, or torture. Some people believe in annihilationism. Others believe in various realms of eternal sadness (or even "self imposed" eternal sadness). There was a Christian guy the other day on this forum basically describing his Jesus as Rambo Jesus coming back during the apocalypse to deal with sinners, and his views are not rare. The Qur'an also mentions a whole host of things about torture for certain types of individuals (usually unbelievers) involving putting chains around their necks, pouring boiling water on them, burning them and replacing their skins, and so forth. So it's not like those views don't exist or that they're rare. Homosexuality is illegal in most Muslim countries and punishable by the death penalty in a subset of them.

 

[Desert Snake]

What about Jews? The standard verses against homosexuality are in the OT, not in the NT.

 

[Pegg]

That's not what the OP is about.

The OP is not stating that homosexuals are intersexed. The majority of homosexuals and heterosexuals do not have genetic abnormalities or ambiguous genitalia or ambiguous gender or sex.

thats why i said 'some choose' it.

The OP is pointing out the problem of viewing gender or sex as a binary thing, because it's not. There are intermediate people. The concept of heterosexuality being acceptable and homosexuality being a sin according to bronze age writings becomes somewhat problematic when it is pointed out that there are a broad range of people that can not 100% be classified as either male or female.

if you are asking a religious person how they view the matter, then the answer is that we would view it the way God views it.

God created male and female....they were created to be together as pairs. That is the way God designed his creation and by and large, that is the way creation continues to function. The fact that some abnormalities appear does not negate Gods original design....he still expects man and woman to dwell as pairs and to produce offspring.

So we must acknowledge there is a problem when we see people being born with the abnormalities you list, however, that does not make homosexuality 'normal' and in harmony with Gods design. Its a result of the 'imperfection' in mankind....sometimes that imperfection shows itself in other ways such as through physical deformities or mental impairments. Sexual deformities are no different. They are there, they are real but that doesnt mean they are natural and something to be pursued.

Secondly, if a person has XXY, which sex should the person be changed to? XX or XY?

i can't answer that, but I do believe that the decision that person makes is between himself and God and I dont doubt that God can change the person into whatever sex is best for that person.
If the body has developed to look female, it was probably meant to be female and viseversa for the males....so my best guess is that God will repair any genetic damage just as he promises to restore sight to the blind and sound to the deaf.

 

[gnomon]

Females normally have XX chromosomes and female primary and secondary sex characteristics.

Males normally have XY chromosomes and male primary and secondary sex characteristics.

This isn't always the case, though. There are intersexed people, because although we'd like to think of sex/gender as binary, it's not.

For some examples:

Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome:
The person has XY (male) chromosomes, but the cells are completely insensitive to androgens (male hormones). The result is that the person is born and appears to be female in terms of what's between her legs, usually develops a female gender identity, and grows up to look like a woman. Actually, they more often look like models than genetic females, because they're often tall and thin, have less hair than a genetic female (because even females have some testosterone and these people can't process it at all), and they develop female secondary sex characteristics of a woman (like breasts). In other words, they often appear even more feminine than genetic females. It's often impossible to know that the female child even has this condition until later in life unless they do a genetic test; she could grow up entirely as a woman and then be told later in life that actually she has XY chromosomes. The person can't give birth. The tend to have female gender identities due to lack of male hormonal effects on the brain and social conditioning, and are in most ways indistinguishable from genetic females.

Klinefelter Syndrome
The person has XXY chromosomes (compared to women that have XX and men that have XY). The person often appears to be a male, but has less testosterone and therefore develops fewer secondary sex characteristics of males. They tend to grow breasts and have some female secondary sex characteristics. So in terms of appearance, they're a mix between males and females. Treatment sometimes includes giving them testosterone to push their bodies more towards the male side. Often infertile.

Other Conditions
There are a vast number of conditions that can lead to a person being intersexed. There are a huge number of conditions where people with XY chromosomes are mostly like females, and some conditions where people with XX chromosomes are more like males. There are a variety of XXY, XO, XXXY, XYY, XXX chromosome possibilities that exist. There are individuals that have ambiguous genitalia. There are individuals with various hormonal influences. There are individuals with various gender identities (with the primary factor being hormonal influences in the womb). There are individuals with a variety of secondary sex characteristics.

.....

The prevalence of these individuals is hard to measure and depends partially on the definition since it's an umbrella of countless different medical conditions, but it's something like one in several hundred births. Millions of people worldwide.

The question to Christians and Muslims that believe homosexuality is a sin:

To what gender/sex should these individuals form sexual partnerships with to avoid the wrath, violence, or torture from Jesus and his father, or Allah?

Here's luck to you. I've asked this question a couple of times on this forum and even tackled it over on CF. The response has been far less than satisfying in regards to Christians, Muslims and even Jews.

It lead me to the conclusion that actual theology doesn't matter. People are adhering to local, ethnic concepts of the concept which, in my opinion, woefully ignorant and don't care about learning.

 

[Penumbra]

What about Jews?

There are a rather small number of Jewish people in the world compared to Christians and Muslims. Israel doesn't perform same sex marriage but they recognize marriages from other countries, allow gays in the military, allow gay adoption, etc. Jews in the U.S. are not a meaningful lobbying force for restricting the freedoms of homosexuals like millions of Christians are. Jews also tend to not tell the rest of the world that their religions are inaccurate and that everyone should convert to Judaism. Most Jews don't seem to believe in eternal hells either; that was apparently part of the later Good News with only tiny references in the OT.

But if any Jews that believe homosexuality is a sin want to participate in the thread, they can answer the OP question about what various inter-sexed people should do with regards to sexual partnerships to not anger the Israelite deity. Same for Baha'i's. I mean heck, if a Hindu or anyone else believes their interpretation of their deity is opposed to homosexuality and would like to answer the question about who intersexed people should date, it's not like I'm going to stop them. But with 7 billion people in the world this is primarily directed to people of evangelizing Abrahamic religions so we can narrow the scope to 2 billion people or so.

The standard verses against homosexuality are in the OT, not in the NT.

Which is something I've repeatedly pointed out to the subset of Christians that seem obsessed with homosexuality (which Jesus never bothered talking about) but not with shellfish dinners or clothes made with mixed fabrics.

Does the OP question apply to you Discipline? Do you believe your deity opposes homosexuality, and if so, what should the various inter-sexed people do?

 

[Desert Snake]

Does the OP question apply to you Discipline? Do you believe your deity opposes homosexuality, and if so, what should the various inter-sexed people do?

Doesn't this contradict what you were just saying in that diatribe? Are you talking about religion, Scripture, or individuals following those religions?

 

[Penumbra]

thats why i said 'some choose' it.

The logic doesn't follow.

The fact that the majority of homosexual individuals are not inter-sexed does not mean there are not biological reasons for their homosexuality.

if you are asking a religious person how they view the matter, then the answer is that we would view it the way God views it.

God created male and female....they were created to be together as pairs. That is the way God designed his creation and by and large, that is the way creation continues to function. The fact that some abnormalities appear does not negate Gods original design....he still expects man and woman to dwell as pairs and to produce offspring.

So are XXY individuals who have both male and female physical characteristics created male or female? Which are they?

Who should these individuals pair with?

So we must acknowledge there is a problem when we see people being born with the abnormalities you list, however, that does not make homosexuality 'normal' and in harmony with Gods design. Its a result of the 'imperfection' in mankind....sometimes that imperfection shows itself in other ways such as through physical deformities or mental impairments. Sexual deformities are no different. They are there, they are real but that doesnt mean they are natural and something to be pursued.

So who should these individuals romantically love to ensure that your deity is not angry with them for romantically loving the wrong person?

i can't answer that, but I do believe that the decision that person makes is between himself and God and I dont doubt that God can change the person into whatever sex is best for that person. If the body has developed to look female, it was probably meant to be female and viseversa for the males....so my best guess is that God will repair any genetic damage just as he promises to restore sight to the blind and sound to the deaf.

Depending on what specific intersexed condition we're discussing, the body can appear to be female with male genes, or appear to be male with female genes, or appear to be a mix of both genders with ambiguous genitalia and/or a mix of sex characteristics. As much as people may like to assert that each people cleanly fits into either the male or female category, for many individuals this is not the case genetically or physically.

You stated your deity creates people male and female. Based on what you said in this last paragraph, if your deity will apparently fix his mistakes and change people's bodies to match who they are, wouldn't you just say that apparently physical sex isn't even all that important and that it's a somewhat irrelevant impediment to love?

 

[Desert Snake]

Anyways, it's not something I concern myself with, if you're talking Scripture then there might be an argument, but otherwise I'm not clear on what you're asking.

 

[Penumbra]

Doesn't this contradict what you were just saying in that diatribe?

I let other people make the contradictions and then just point out why they don't make sense.

Are you talking about religion, Scripture, or individuals following those religions?

Yes.

There are a hole host of threads right now with several people, mostly identified as Christians, arguing why homosexuality or anything other than heterosexuality is wrong.

Sure, I could point out that Jesus never mentioned homosexuality even though the Israelites called men sleeping with men (and eating shellfish) an abomination, but that doesn't change the fact that millions of Christians in the U.S. and other countries have a religious opposition to homosexuality. So I'll just roll with it here.

Homosexuality is illegal in most Muslim countries. Not just homosexual marriage, but homosexual sex.

Ultimately it's down to the individual, though. If a person identifies as Christian or Muslim but does not believe their deity has any problem with homosexuality then this thread is not directed towards them. The title made that clear.

Does the OP question apply to you Disciple? Do you believe your deity opposes homosexuality, and if so, what should the various inter-sexed people do?

 

[Penumbra]

Anyways, it's not something I concern myself with, if you're talking Scripture then there might be an argument, but otherwise I'm not clear on what you're asking.

I'm asking if you believe your deity is against homosexuality, who should intersexed people sexually partner with to ensure they don't face anger from your deity?

If you don't believe your deity is against homosexuality then the question does not apply to you.

 

[Desert Snake]

Does the OP question apply to you Disciple? Do you believe your deity opposes homosexuality, and if so, what should the various inter-sexed people do?

Frankly I think your OP is a bit of a strawman, I have to accept the argument, answer accordingly, and then obviously be refuted by the "science" of someone supposedly not in control of their actions.
So in light of the fact that I don't think your argument presents a realistic approach to the topic, I'm not going to answer it, as the resulting discussion would only be obfuscatory IMO.

That's why I brought up Scripture.
sincerely, d

 

[Penumbra]

Here's luck to you. I've asked this question a couple of times on this forum and even tackled it over on CF. The response has been far less than satisfying in regards to Christians, Muslims and even Jews.

It lead me to the conclusion that actual theology doesn't matter. People are adhering to local, ethnic concepts of the concept which, in my opinion, woefully ignorant and don't care about learning.

This is the way I view it as well for most people.

But it's worth giving people a chance to share their beliefs. I've recently read through around 100 pages of people adamantly arguing against homosexuality or transsexualism, so I'd assume that people should be able to easily define what sex a person is and who it be appropriate for them to date if it's so wrong for them to accidentally date the wrong person.

 

[Penumbra]

Frankly I think your OP is a bit of a strawman, I have to accept the argument, answer accordingly, and then obviously be refuted by the "science" of someone supposedly not in control of their actions.

Which part of the science do you think in is incorrect?

Do you disagree that XXY individuals with male and female characteristics exist? Or that XY people with immunity to testosterone that appear female in all ways exist?

So in light of the fact that I don't think your argument presents a realistic approach to the topic, I'm not going to answer it, as the resulting discussion would only be obfuscatory IMO.

What's not realistic about the millions of intersexed people in this world and the question of who they should date in the eyes of people that believe homosexuality is immoral?

That's why I brought up Scripture.
sincerely, d

Who does your scripture say an individual with XXY chromosomes should partner with?