For Christians and Muslims that Oppose Homosexuality:

[gnomon]

Frankly I think your OP is a bit of a strawman, I have to accept the argument, answer accordingly, and then obviously be refuted by the "science" of someone supposedly not in control of their actions.
So in light of the fact that I don't think your argument presents a realistic approach to the topic, I'm not going to answer it, as the resulting discussion would only be obfuscatory IMO.

That's why I brought up Scripture.
sincerely, d

Intersex individuals are not strawmen.

 

[atanu]

Females normally have XX chromosomes and female primary and secondary sex characteristics.

Males normally have XY chromosomes and male primary and secondary sex characteristics.

This isn't always the case, though. There are intersexed people, because although we'd like to think of sex/gender as binary, it's not.

For some examples:

Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome:
The person has XY (male) chromosomes, but the cells are completely insensitive to androgens (male hormones). The result is that the person is born and appears to be female in terms of what's between her legs, usually develops a female gender identity, and grows up to look like a woman. Actually, they more often look like models than genetic females, because they're often tall and thin, have less hair than a genetic female (because even females have some testosterone and these people can't process it at all), and they develop female secondary sex characteristics of a woman (like breasts). In other words, they often appear even more feminine than genetic females. It's often impossible to know that the female child even has this condition until later in life unless they do a genetic test; she could grow up entirely as a woman and then be told later in life that actually she has XY chromosomes. The person can't give birth. The tend to have female gender identities due to lack of male hormonal effects on the brain and social conditioning, and are in most ways indistinguishable from genetic females.

Klinefelter Syndrome
The person has XXY chromosomes (compared to women that have XX and men that have XY). The person often appears to be a male, but has less testosterone and therefore develops fewer secondary sex characteristics of males. They tend to grow breasts and have some female secondary sex characteristics. So in terms of appearance, they're a mix between males and females. Treatment sometimes includes giving them testosterone to push their bodies more towards the male side. Often infertile.

Other Conditions
There are a vast number of conditions that can lead to a person being intersexed. There are a huge number of conditions where people with XY chromosomes are mostly like females, and some conditions where people with XX chromosomes are more like males. There are a variety of XXY, XO, XXXY, XYY, XXX chromosome possibilities that exist. There are individuals that have ambiguous genitalia. There are individuals with various hormonal influences. There are individuals with various gender identities (with the primary factor being hormonal influences in the womb). There are individuals with a variety of secondary sex characteristics.

.....

The prevalence of these individuals is hard to measure and depends partially on the definition since it's an umbrella of countless different medical conditions, but it's something like one in several hundred births. Millions of people worldwide.

The question to Christians and Muslims that believe homosexuality is a sin:

To what gender/sex should these individuals form sexual partnerships with to avoid the wrath, violence, or torture from Jesus and his father, or Allah?

A very sensitive post. We are indeed cruel to so-called aberrations.

(But you know, it is said that all odd folks are welcome to Shiva).

 

[Desert Snake]

Which part of the science do you think in is incorrect?

The 'strawman' here is the uncertain implications of the science.

What's not realistic about the millions of intersexed people in this world and the question of who they should date in the eyes of people that believe homosexuality is immoral?

Again, what other science are you applying to what behaviors etc.

Who does your scripture say an individual with XXY chromosomes should partner with?

Strawman, sorry.

 

[gnomon]

It's not a strawman argument.

They actually exist.

A child born whose physical appearance denotes that they are a woman and they later discover in adulthood that they possess XY chromosomes and their development of a vagina and breasts but no uterus is a fact that happens.

It's not a strawman. What does your religion say about this?

[youtube][youtube]odeDW5p4_CY[/youtube]
Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS) Arabic subtitle - YouTube[youtube]

This is just one form of intersex. There are others.

 

[Pegg]

The logic doesn't follow.

The fact that the majority of homosexual individuals are not inter-sexed does not mean there are not biological reasons for their homosexuality.

if they are gentically normal, then they are making a 'choice' and i dont think it can be biological if there is no biological evidence to support it.

So are XXY individuals who have both male and female physical characteristics created male or female? Which are they?

Who should these individuals pair with?

as i said, if the body has developed to appear female, then perhaps thats the true form even if she doesnt feel that she is female on the inside. Same with men, if they feel feminine, but have a male body and organs, then they were probably supposed to be male. ...its no different to a person who was born blind but they have eyeballs...they were probably supposed to be born with sight.

So who should these individuals romantically love to ensure that your deity is not angry with them for romantically loving the wrong person?

why should they have to be romantic with anyone? I know of homosexuals and hetrosexuals who choose to remain single and celibate. No one has to pair up if they dont feel inclined... but if they simply want to have sex, then thats another issue entirely.

Depending on what specific intersexed condition we're discussing, the body can appear to be female with male genes, or appear to be male with female genes, or appear to be a mix of both genders with ambiguous genitalia and/or a mix of sex characteristics. As much as people may like to assert that each people cleanly fits into either the male or female category, for many individuals this is not the case genetically or physically.

You stated your deity creates people male and female. Based on what you said in this last paragraph, if your deity will apparently fix his mistakes and change people's bodies to match who they are, wouldn't you just say that apparently physical sex isn't even all that important and that it's a somewhat irrelevant impediment to love?

sex is a tool for procreation...it has very little to do with 'love' except that it is a fairly nice way to bring children into the world.

The problem with imperfections is not that God created the imperfections, but that they are the result of mankind being independent from God. We cannot control biological processes and reproduction...without God overseeing that process, things have been going wrong. So he never creates imperfections in us but he can and will repair them.

in the meantime, we are expected to uphold his standards which include his sexual standards. A genetic abnormality does not excuse a person from being held accountable to God for their actions. If a hetrosexual breaks Gods moral laws they are just as accountable as a homosexual who breaks Gods moral laws. Some hetrosexual men develop an addiction to sex....are they free to express their sexual desire just because they have a mental impairment? No, of course not.

its the same with true homosexuals and those who choose to be homosexuals.

 

[Penumbra]

The 'strawman' here is the uncertain implications of the science.

Which uncertain implications?

Again, what other science are you applying to what behaviors etc.

What do you mean here?

Strawman, sorry.

A strawman is a fallacy where a person ignores someone's position and creates a distorted or exaggerated version of that position and then discredits it.

Instead, I've merely asked Christians and Muslims that oppose homosexuality which gender/sex inter-sexed individuals should sexually partner with.

It should be a simple question, right?

Let's ignore all straws and drink straight from the cup. Suppose I have XXY chromosomes right now. Who would it be a sin for me to sexually partner with and who would it not be a sin for me to partner with, if you believe that your deity opposes homosexuality (same sex relationships)?

 

[gnomon]

if they are gentically normal, then they are making a 'choice' and i dont think it can be biological if there is no biological evidence to support it.



as i said, if the body has developed to appear female, then perhaps thats the true form even if she doesnt feel that she is female on the inside. Same with men, if they feel feminine, but have a male body and organs, then they were probably supposed to be male. ...its no different to a person who was born blind but they have eyeballs...they were probably supposed to be born with sight.



why should they have to be romantic with anyone? I know of homosexuals and hetrosexuals who choose to remain single and celibate. No one has to pair up if they dont feel inclined... but if they simply want to have sex, then thats another issue entirely.




sex is a tool for procreation...it has very little to do with 'love' except that it is a fairly nice way to bring children into the world.

The problem with imperfections is not that God created the imperfections, but that they are the result of mankind being independent from God. We cannot control biological processes and reproduction...without God overseeing that process, things have been going wrong. So he never creates imperfections in us but he can and will repair them.

in the meantime, we are expected to uphold his standards which include his sexual standards. A genetic abnormality does not excuse a person from being held accountable to God for their actions. If a hetrosexual breaks Gods moral laws they are just as accountable as a homosexual who breaks Gods moral laws. Some hetrosexual men develop an addiction to sex....are they free to express their sexual desire just because they have a mental impairment? No, of course not.

its the same with true homosexuals and those who choose to be homosexuals.

Supposed to be? I consider myself basically versed in religious literature but never have I read an individual understanding what they are supposed to be.

The OP regarded intersex people. Why are you discussing homosexuality? Do you understand the difference?

Read this website first before replying.

 

[Desert Snake]

Instead, I've merely asked Christians and Muslims that oppose homosexuality which gender/sex inter-sexed individuals should sexually partner with.

But that is from Scripture, so why are you specifically asking Christians & Muslims, it's from the Jewish Torah. That is what I don't get. Why not just ask everybody, religion aside? Or at least include Judaism in the OP?? Sorry but agenda written all over this thread.

 

[Penumbra]

if they are gentically normal, then they are making a 'choice' and i dont think it can be biological if there is no biological evidence to support it.

Genetics do not equal biology. Genetics are a subset of biology. Something can be biological without being genetic.

as i said, if the body has developed to appear female, then perhaps thats the true form even if she doesnt feel that she is female on the inside. Same with men, if they feel feminine, but have a male body and organs, then they were probably supposed to be male. ...its no different to a person who was born blind but they have eyeballs...they were probably supposed to be born with sight.

What if they appear neither, uncertain, or both?

For some, that's how it is.

why should they have to be romantic with anyone? I know of homosexuals and hetrosexuals who choose to remain single and celibate. No one has to pair up if they dont feel inclined... but if they simply want to have sex, then thats another issue entirely.

sex is a tool for procreation...it has very little to do with 'love' except that it is a fairly nice way to bring children into the world.

The problem with imperfections is not that God created the imperfections, but that they are the result of mankind being independent from God. We cannot control biological processes and reproduction...without God overseeing that process, things have been going wrong. So he never creates imperfections in us but he can and will repair them.

That's probably in the top ten most unloving things I've ever heard.

Do you believe that a genetically 'normal' female or male that is infertile due to some condition should not be romantic with anyone, since it's all about baby manufacturing?

That they're just biological assembly machines and that without proper assembly equipment they shouldn't bother forming any romantic relationships?

in the meantime, we are expected to uphold his standards which include his sexual standards. A genetic abnormality does not excuse a person from being held accountable to God for their actions. If a hetrosexual breaks Gods moral laws they are just as accountable as a homosexual who breaks Gods moral laws. Some hetrosexual men develop an addiction to sex....are they free to express their sexual desire just because they have a mental impairment? No, of course not.

its the same with true homosexuals and those who choose to be homosexuals.

But the question is, who should an inter-sexed person date to make sure that he or she or s/he is not committing a homosexual sin?

 

[Penumbra]

But that is from Scripture, so why are you specifically asking Christians & Muslims, it's from the Jewish Torah. That is what I don't get. Why not just ask everybody, religion aside? Or at least include Judaism in the OP?? Sorry but agenda written all over this thread.

Christians quite often use the Torah reference the Torah. Quite often on this forum, too. Otherwise how would they even know homosexuality is wrong? Jesus never mentioned it. This guy named Paul who read the Torah mentioned it, though.

Can you refer me to the Torah verse that states who XXY individuals should properly sexually partner with?

It says men should not lie with men but I'm not sure there is a comprehensive definition of what a man is in there. If eternal souls are on the line we should probably make sure of these things.

 

[Desert Snake]

Does the OP question apply to you Discipline? Do you believe your deity opposes homosexuality, and if so, what should the various inter-sexed people do?

Your question is vague.

Anyways, no I don't think it's that important.
That being said there are all sorts of things in the Bible we aren't supposed to do, and definition #1 does not necessarily equate the same meaning to definition #2

 

[Pegg]

That's probably in the top ten most unloving things I've ever heard.
Do you believe that a genetically 'normal' female or male that is infertile due to some condition should not be romantic with anyone, since it's all about baby manufacturing?

of course not, thats not what i'm saying.

couples are still sexually active love after menopause sets in, obviously God intended for sexual relations to be an ongoing act between couples. But for those who want to keep a relationship with God, they have to uphold his standards. If a man is a homosexual, he cannot break Gods sexual laws just to satisfy himself. So for anyone who seeks to maintain a relationship with God they would need to come to a decision about this themselves. I know of homosexuals who have made that decision to remain single...its not 'unloving' if they choose to do that. Many hetrosexuals are also single. Being single is not a bad thing.

But the question is, who should an inter-sexed person date to make sure that he or she or s/he is not committing a homosexual sin?

If they feel the need to date/marry, a physically female should pair with a male. And a physically male, should pair with a female because that is Gods standard.

If they are inter-sexed, then God will repair them in his due time.

 

[Penumbra]

Your question is vague.

Anyways, no I don't think it's that important. That being said there are all sorts of things in the Bible we aren't supposed to do, and definition #1 does not necessarily equate the same meaning to definition #2

Do you believe that people that are adamantly against homosexuality for religious reasons should probably have worldviews that take into account inter-sexed people?

It seems odd to say that males can't sleep with males if they can't quite define what a male is, right?

 

[gnomon]

of course not, thats not what i'm saying.

couples are still sexually active love after menopause sets in, obviously God intended for sexual relations to be an ongoing act between couples. But for those who want to keep a relationship with God, they have to uphold his standards. If a man is a homosexual, he cannot break Gods sexual laws just to satisfy himself. So for anyone who seeks to maintain a relationship with God they would need to come to a decision about this themselves. I know of homosexuals who have made that decision to remain single...its not 'unloving' if they choose to do that. Many hetrosexuals are also single. Being single is not a bad thing.



If they feel the need to date/marry, a physically female should pair with a male. And a physically male, should pair with a female because that is Gods standard.

If they are inter-sexed, then God will repair them in his due time.

It's been thousands of years without any such repair. These people have passed on to judgment without repair.

What do you consider due time?

 

[Penumbra]

of course not, thats not what i'm saying.

couples are still sexually active love after menopause sets in, obviously God intended for sexual relations to be an ongoing act between couples. But for those who want to keep a relationship with God, they have to uphold his standards. If a man is a homosexual, he cannot break Gods sexual laws just to satisfy himself. So for anyone who seeks to maintain a relationship with God they would need to come to a decision about this themselves. I know of homosexuals who have made that decision to remain single...its not 'unloving' if they choose to do that. Many hetrosexuals are also single. Being single is not a bad thing.

If they feel the need to date/marry, a physically female should pair with a male. And a physically male, should pair with a female because that is Gods standard.

If they are inter-sexed, then God will repair them in his due time.

Cool.

So who should a person who doesn't quite look male or female pair with to avoid being a homosexual?

 

[Pegg]

It's been thousands of years without any such repair. These people have passed on to judgment without repair.

What do you consider due time?

the millenial reign of Christ

After Armageddon, all of mankind will slowly be brought back to life...this will include former homosexuals who have died. When they are brought back, they will not be brought back with genetic faults.

 

[Pegg]

Cool.

So who should a person who doesn't quite look male or female pair with to avoid being a homosexual?

in my first post I said that any decision made by such a person is between themselves and God.
The bible discusses the sexual behavior of those who 'choose' to 'turn themselves into something contrary to nature'
It says nothing about people who may be born with two sets of genitals or with real genetic faults. So there is no point lumping everyone in together.

 

[Penumbra]

in my first post I said that any decision made by such a person is between themselves and God.

And if god doesn't answer, what should they decide?

From what I hear, he tends to be pretty quiet sometimes.

The bible discusses the sexual behavior of those who 'choose' to 'turn themselves into something contrary to nature'
It says nothing about people who may be born with two sets of genitals or with real genetic faults. So there is no point lumping everyone in together.

The only people being lumped together here are those that fit under the definition of inter-sexed. People that cannot be conclusively physically identified as either male or female.

There are countless conditions that can lead to this and I provided some specific examples.

 

[gnomon]

the millenial reign of Christ

After Armageddon, all of mankind will slowly be brought back to life...this will include former homosexuals who have died. When they are brought back, they will not be brought back with genetic faults.

Your religion clearly states that we are judged by our actions before our death. We are also not talking about homosexuals.

Intersex individuals were not repaired prior to their death. If someone who was intersex, based upon God's creation, slept with the wrong person according to your religion but beyond their own knowledge than how could they receive an a posteriori judgment, an after the fact judgment, if they engaged what your religion would determine to be homosexual behavior?

In other words, you are damning the intersex from the day they were born based upon chance and not personal life. Is this what you are telling us that God determines. That children are damned from birth? Given no choice. Well that contradicts the religion you are putting forth.

Because there is no doubting the religion of damnation for 2,000 years as put forth by the majority of the Christian and Muslim based religion. Do you deny that?

 

[Desert Snake]

Do you believe that people that are adamantly against homosexuality for religious reasons should probably have worldviews that take into account inter-sexed people?

It seems odd to say that males can't sleep with males if they can't quite define what a male is, right?

You would have to get their opinions on that.