For Christians and Muslims that Oppose Homosexuality:

[Pegg]

And if god doesn't answer, what should they decide?

From what I hear, he tends to be pretty quiet sometimes.

they should let their own conscience be their guide. If they do that, then their decision is between them self and God and he will determine the outcome.

The only people being lumped together here are those that fit under the definition of inter-sexed. People that cannot be conclusively physically identified as either male or female.

There are countless conditions that can lead to this and I provided some specific examples.

The very title of this thread is about those against 'homosexuality'

So you opened the thread about homosexuality, then proceeded to explain that some people are homosexual due to genetic abnormalities.

I made the distinction in my first post when i said 'some choose'...meaning not all homosexuals are born with a genetic abnormality.

 

[gnomon]

they should let their own conscience be their guide. If they do that, then their decision is between them self and God and he will determine the outcome.




The very title of this thread is about those against 'homosexuality'

So you opened the thread about homosexuality, then proceeded to explain that some people are homosexual due to genetic abnormalities.

I made the distinction in my first post when i said 'some choose'...meaning not all homosexuals are born with a genetic abnormality.

What choice is involved?

A child is born into a Christian family preaching abhorrence against homosexuality. The child buys into it and grows up as a recognizable female. Living according to those standards this woman finds themselves unable to give birth. After a medical procedure a doctor finds that this individual is an XY male with androgen insensitivity syndrome. At a late age. So this individual who is an XY male but developed a vagina without a womb and testes instead of ovaries along with breasts followed every religious tenet of Christianity and married another male and had sex with that male is now damned based upon a misunderstood biological development (biological development at this point being understood as mandated by God) of the religious believers who taught this child is now damned according to those same scriptures for lying same with same.

 

[Desert Snake]

Christians quite often use the Torah reference the Torah. Quite often on this forum, too. Otherwise how would they even know homosexuality is wrong? Jesus never mentioned it. This guy named Paul who read the Torah mentioned it, though.

And they are just as often refuted by people practicing Judaism stating that Christianity is a completely different religion than Judaism.

Can you refer me to the Torah verse that states who XXY individuals should properly sexually partner with?

I'm not "Torah True", I don't practice Judaism, remember?

It says men should not lie with men but I'm not sure there is a comprehensive definition of what a man is in there. If eternal souls are on the line we should probably make sure of these things.

It also states that we should not eat pork or crustaceans, shouldn't shave, and practice circumcision.

 

[Pegg]

What choice is involved?

A child is born into a Christian family preaching abhorrence against homosexuality. The child buys into it and grows up as a recognizable female. Living according to those standards this woman finds themselves unable to give birth. After a medical procedure a doctor finds that this individual is an XY male with androgen insensitivity syndrome. At a late age. So this individual who is an XY male but developed a vagina without a womb and testes instead of ovaries along with breasts followed every religious tenet of Christianity and married another male and had sex with that male is now damned based upon a misunderstood biological development (biological development at this point being understood as mandated by God) of the religious believers who taught this child is now damned according to those same scriptures for lying same with same.

God does not condemn a person for being born with such an abnormality. The scriptures do not state anything about a person with such an abnormality so there is no case to say that they are damned... it only states that those who 'change the natural use of themselves into something contrary to nature' will be held accountable.

 

[F0uad]

A guy with a appearance of a women or vice verca doesn't make the person gay or lesbian. Moreover the feelings are not condemned but the sexual behavior.

 

[LuisDantas]

not all homosexuals have a genetic abnormality...not all are born that way, there are many who do choose it.

Maybe you are confusing bisexuals with homosexuals. I know of hardly any homosexuals that chose to be so.

But can i just ask that if is is known that the above abnormalities exist, then perhaps science will find a way to correct it?

In some cases there are treatments, as stated in the OP. But that is hardly relevant to the questions raised.

A bit of genetic engineering as they are currently doing with plants...do you think that would be a good thing?

Having the avoidance of homosexuality as a goal? No, I definitely do not. It would be a violent measure to impose arbitrary values, branding people with an unneeded and unfair stigma of "diseased".

True acceptance of homosexuality is far more important than any attempts to avoid it. If avoiding it is at all desirable, that is.

 

[LuisDantas]

God does not condemn a person for being born with such an abnormality. The scriptures do not state anything about a person with such an abnormality so there is no case to say that they are damned... it only states that those who 'change the natural use of themselves into something contrary to nature' will be held accountable.

One must decide how that verse applies to the genetic tinkering you suggested earlier, as well as to, say, using prostetics to make for legs or arms that one might have lost or not been born with.

The verse alone would imply that it is wrong. It obviously isn't always, though, and we must accept the responsibility to decide when and why.

 

[LuisDantas]

the millenial reign of Christ

After Armageddon, all of mankind will slowly be brought back to life...this will include former homosexuals who have died. When they are brought back, they will not be brought back with genetic faults.

Doesn't that amount to asking us all to accept as a matter of fact that homosexuals and intersexuals were effectively cursed from birth and should just accept both the curse and their treatment as cursed people?

And also that they shouldn't embrace their own nature "too much" because they are "truly meant" to be different, heterosexual people even if it will only happen after Christ returns?

That seems like an awful lot to ask from people that may not even be Christians in the first place.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

What choice is involved?

A child is born into a Christian family preaching abhorrence against homosexuality. The child buys into it and grows up as a recognizable female. Living according to those standards this woman finds themselves unable to give birth. After a medical procedure a doctor finds that this individual is an XY male with androgen insensitivity syndrome. At a late age. So this individual who is an XY male but developed a vagina without a womb and testes instead of ovaries along with breasts followed every religious tenet of Christianity and married another male and had sex with that male is now damned based upon a misunderstood biological development (biological development at this point being understood as mandated by God) of the religious believers who taught this child is now damned according to those same scriptures for lying same with same.

God does not condemn a person for being born with such an abnormality. The scriptures do not state anything about a person with such an abnormality so there is no case to say that they are damned... it only states that those who 'change the natural use of themselves into something contrary to nature' will be held accountable.

"Natural use of themselves"?

Sexuality is only defined by what dangly bits people have and how they're used in regards to making babies?

 

[Muffled]

Females normally have XX chromosomes and female primary and secondary sex characteristics.

Males normally have XY chromosomes and male primary and secondary sex characteristics.

This isn't always the case, though. There are intersexed people, because although we'd like to think of sex/gender as binary, it's not.

For some examples:

Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome:
The person has XY (male) chromosomes, but the cells are completely insensitive to androgens (male hormones). The result is that the person is born and appears to be female in terms of what's between her legs, usually develops a female gender identity, and grows up to look like a woman. Actually, they more often look like models than genetic females, because they're often tall and thin, have less hair than a genetic female (because even females have some testosterone and these people can't process it at all), and they develop female secondary sex characteristics of a woman (like breasts). In other words, they often appear even more feminine than genetic females. It's often impossible to know that the female child even has this condition until later in life unless they do a genetic test; she could grow up entirely as a woman and then be told later in life that actually she has XY chromosomes. The person can't give birth. The tend to have female gender identities due to lack of male hormonal effects on the brain and social conditioning, and are in most ways indistinguishable from genetic females.

Klinefelter Syndrome
The person has XXY chromosomes (compared to women that have XX and men that have XY). The person often appears to be a male, but has less testosterone and therefore develops fewer secondary sex characteristics of males. They tend to grow breasts and have some female secondary sex characteristics. So in terms of appearance, they're a mix between males and females. Treatment sometimes includes giving them testosterone to push their bodies more towards the male side. Often infertile.

Other Conditions
There are a vast number of conditions that can lead to a person being intersexed. There are a huge number of conditions where people with XY chromosomes are mostly like females, and some conditions where people with XX chromosomes are more like males. There are a variety of XXY, XO, XXXY, XYY, XXX chromosome possibilities that exist. There are individuals that have ambiguous genitalia. There are individuals with various hormonal influences. There are individuals with various gender identities (with the primary factor being hormonal influences in the womb). There are individuals with a variety of secondary sex characteristics.

.....

The prevalence of these individuals is hard to measure and depends partially on the definition since it's an umbrella of countless different medical conditions, but it's something like one in several hundred births. Millions of people worldwide.

The question to Christians and Muslims that believe homosexuality is a sin:

To what gender/sex should these individuals form sexual partnerships with to avoid the wrath, violence, or torture from Jesus and his father, or Allah?

The organs between the legs determine sexual orientation.

 

[LuisDantas]

The organs between the legs determine sexual orientation.

Such a statement flies on the face of actual observable fact, though. How can it be true?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Because some people seem to missunderstand Penumbra's OP:
Intersexed individuals do not have clear genitals, or do not fit into the typical XX/XY chromosome spectrum. A woman who is insensitive to testosterone, instead of having ovaries she will have undescended testicles. Externally though her appearance looks no different than any other female.
And then there are those who are born with ambiguous genitals; you really can't say they have a penis or vagina or a boy or girl at birth because their "dangly bits" do not fit the description of either.
I think what she was wanting to get at is religious views concerning the sexuality of those who fall outside of our societies strict male/female dichotomy, and that such a strict dichotomy is not an accurate portrayal of how things actually happen.

The organs between the legs determine sexual orientation.

If that were even remotely true then there would not be one homosexual or bisexual person alive.

 

[Pegg]

A guy with a appearance of a women or vice verca doesn't make the person gay or lesbian. Moreover the feelings are not condemned but the sexual behavior.

exactly right!

and its exactly the same for a hetrosexual who seeks to pursue sexual relationships before marriage, or outside of marriage.....there are rules governing sexual behavior no matter what gender we are.

 

[Penumbra]

they should let their own conscience be their guide. If they do that, then their decision is between them self and God and he will determine the outcome.

Do you believe this is true in all cases?

The very title of this thread is about those against 'homosexuality'

So you opened the thread about homosexuality, then proceeded to explain that some people are homosexual due to genetic abnormalities.

I made the distinction in my first post when i said 'some choose'...meaning not all homosexuals are born with a genetic abnormality.

Then you misunderstood the OP. I ask you to please read it again.

It's not about biological effects causing homosexuality. It's about who inter-sexed individuals should sleep with to avoid being homosexuals from the viewpoint of people that believe their deities get mad at homosexual sex.

If a person can't quite determine whether they are a man or woman, or if they have an opinion on whether they are a man or a woman but other people disagree, then how can they make sure they avoid homosexual sex?

The only reason homosexuality has anything to do with this thread is because for those that do not have any religious objections to homosexuality, the question of who inter-sexed people should sexually partner with is irrelevant. The answer is whoever they want to.

 

[Penumbra]

And they are just as often refuted by people practicing Judaism stating that Christianity is a completely different religion than Judaism.

I'm not "Torah True", I don't practice Judaism, remember?

It also states that we should not eat pork or crustaceans, shouldn't shave, and practice circumcision.

And I often point out those things but eh, that doesn't change the fact that hundreds of millions of Christians and Muslims oppose homosexuality worldwide.

Do you not believe homosexuality is a sin and/or that your deity does not oppose homosexuality? If that's the case then the thread isn't directed at you.

 

[Penumbra]

A guy with a appearance of a women or vice verca doesn't make the person gay or lesbian.

But that's the thing- they're not quite men or women, depending on what definition you go with. Sometimes they have an ambiguous appearance that is neither male nor female, or is both male and female.

Moreover the feelings are not condemned but the sexual behavior.

Which sexual behavior?

For which sex is it a condemned behavior for an individual with XXY chromosomes and a mix of male and female secondary sex characteristics to sleep with?

For which sex is it a condemned behavior for an individual with XY chromosomes that has internal testes but is completely immune to testosterone and looks and feels female her whole life to sleep with?

 

[Penumbra]

The organs between the legs determine sexual orientation.

Do you mean sexual orientation, or sexual identification?

There are individuals for which people with medical degrees cannot conclusively determine their sex from what's between their legs, because it's a combination of both. Since male and female sexual organs develop from the same basic structures, there can be combinations of them if certain hormonal or genetic effects influence it. If it's ambiguous, which sex should the person be labeled as?

There are also cases where the external organ appears one way but inside it's actually the other way. Like with XY chromosomal males with androgen insensitivity syndrome who are immune to testosterone: they have vaginas and look to be female their whole life. What's between her legs is a female sex organ. Without a genetic test or some sort of medical scan of her abdomen, she would otherwise go her whole life without knowing that she has this condition. But on the inside, she actually has internal testes and doesn't have a uterus. Is she female or male?

 

[Penumbra]

exactly right!

and its exactly the same for a hetrosexual who seeks to pursue sexual relationships before marriage, or outside of marriage.....there are rules governing sexual behavior no matter what gender we are.

Which type of sexual behavior is condemned from an individual that has XXY chromosomes and appears to be a physical combination of male and female traits?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The very title of this thread is about those against 'homosexuality'

So you opened the thread about homosexuality, then proceeded to explain that some people are homosexual due to genetic abnormalities.

I made the distinction in my first post when i said 'some choose'...meaning not all homosexuals are born with a genetic abnormality.

I think you might be trying to make the wrong link between intersexuality and homosexuality. I don't think Penumbra was suggesting that intersex people are necessarily homosexual.

My take on it - and Penumbra, feel free to correct me - is that if you put forward the idea that all people should be subject to a particular standard (e.g. opposite-sex relationships only and no same-sex relationships), then at a basic level, this implies that the standard actually applies to all people. In this context, these prohibitions on homosexual relationships imply that all people have one - and only one - defined sex. It implies that all people are either entirely male or entirely female. The existence of intersex people calls this assumption into question.

 

[Pegg]

Do you believe this is true in all cases?

not in the case where a person chooses to be homosexual, no. The scriptures are clear that when a man has sex with a man, or woman with women, it is going against Gods law.

Then you misunderstood the OP. I ask you to please read it again.

It's not about biological effects causing homosexuality. It's about who inter-sexed individuals should sleep with to avoid being homosexuals from the viewpoint of people that believe their deities get mad at homosexual sex.

It will depend on a persons body type. I said earlier that if the body has developed to be a women (even if she doesnt feel she is a women) then she should pair with a man and vice versa.

That is the only way to live in harmony with the scriptural laws regarding sexual behavior.

If a person can't quite determine whether they are a man or woman, or if they have an opinion on whether they are a man or a woman but other people disagree, then how can they make sure they avoid homosexual sex?

celibacy.

The only reason homosexuality has anything to do with this thread is because for those that do not have any religious objections to homosexuality, the question of who inter-sexed people should sexually partner with is irrelevant. The answer is whoever they want to.

but is it irrelevant to God? I dont think so.

And is it irrelevant to an inter-sexed person who wants to maintain a good relationship with God? No, i dont think it is. Everybody who seeks to maintain a relationship with God must make some sacrifices in one way or another....i've seen homosexuals making such sacrifices and living full happy lives without sex. Sex is not what makes us who we are...its a very small part of us.