For Christians. Was the flood real or just a myth?

[Faithofchristian]

You dodged the question. There have been many local floods on the Earth, but never one worldwide flood.

Was Noah and family the only survivors? If the flood was local then why didn't people walk uphill? And this is rather important:

Why can we see evidence of smaller floods, but we can't find evidence of a flood that would have 'killed off the ebil" at all?

There has not been a local flood to kill off life, have you ever tried to walk in a flood of water, and water that's coming up out of the earth and rain pouring down so hard that you can barely see your hand in front of you.

So how are those people to even find their way to a mountain, much less try to climb a mountain.

Look at some floods we have to day, that pushes car bus's what ever else gets in the way along with the flood, how many people do you hear of running to a mountain.
You might find some people sitting on top of their houses or in a tree. Much less finding them running to a mountain.

Look at the flood that happen down in Texas, how many got caught in their houses, What if there was no warnings, how many people do you suppose would haved died.

Back at the time of Noahs, there was no warnings of a soon coming flood or hurricane. Only what Noah was telling them, but still people did not listen, so the flood came upon them and boom took them all alway.

No Noah and his family were not the only ones on the ark, their were others on the ark. God told Noah to take two of every flesh a male and female. This being two of every race male and female.
How is it that some christians get there were only Noah and his family on the ark.
That's totally nonsense.

Scientist have proven that out in the desert's mountains you can see evidence where water lines on the mountains sides where water once was stood.. And scientist have even found out in those desert mountain's fossilized clam shell's and fossilized fish that can only be found out in the ocean's. So how did they get there from the ocean's way up into the desert mountain's a thousand miles away.

What about the dinosaurs bones which scientist have dated to be around Millions of years old.
This I never could figure out, when I was younger in my 8th grade science class,
To discover about Dinosaurs bones being Millions of years old.
But yet being taught that the earth is only 6000 years old, I would ask myself, how can this be, how can something like the Dinosaurs bones being Millions of years old fit into something that's 6000 years old.

It just will not work. You can not get a Millions yrs to fit into 6000 yrs.

I don't care how you go about to figure it, You will not get a Millions yrs to fit into 6000 yrs.

But you can figure 6000 yrs into a Millions yrs.
I couldn't began to tell you just how many disputes I've had with many Christians over this.
But for some reason, they just do not get it.

That you can not nor ever get a Millions yrs to fit inside 6000 yrs.

If you ever do Figure how to get a Millions yrs to fit inside 6000 yrs, let me know.

So we have the Dinosaurs bones Millions yrs old, standing there as witnesses to the fact that the earth is much older than 6000 yrs.
As some Christians want to believe the earth is only 6000 yrs old. I have as of yet to believe that nonsense.

 

[Subduction Zone]

There has not been a local flood to kill off life, have you ever tried to walk in a flood of water, and water that's coming up out of the earth and rain pouring down so hard that you can barely see your hand in front of you.

Please try to pay attention. The question is not whether some life would die, the question is whether all life would die. How would a local flood kill all the ebil? Some would not do the trick.

So how are those people to even find their way to a mountain, much less try to climb a mountain.

Whoa!! Make up your mind. Now they have to climb a mountain? There have not been any floods of that size during man's time on the Earth.

Look at some floods we have to day, that pushes car bus's what ever else gets in the way along with the flood, how many people do you hear of running to a mountain.
You might find some people sitting on top of their houses or in a tree. Much less finding them running to a mountain.

Now you are merely repeating errors.

Look at the flood that happen down in Texas, how many got caught in their houses, What if there was no warnings, how many people do you suppose would haved died.

Back at the time of Noahs, there was no warnings of a soon coming flood or hurricane. Only what Noah was telling them, but still people did not listen, so the flood came upon them and boom took them all alway.

No Noah and his family were not the only ones on the ark, their were others on the ark. God told Noah to take two of every flesh a male and female. This being two of every race male and female.
How is it that people get there were only Noah and his family.

What do you mean by "race"? The term race, as applied to people is merely a sociological description. There are not any races or subspecies of man. Are you trying to say that more than Noah's family were in the Ark? How many people are you proposing?

Scientist have proven that out in the desert's mountains you can see evidence where water lines on the mountains sides where water once was deep. And scientist have even found out in those desert mountain's fossilized clam shell's and fossilized fish that can only be found out in the ocean's. So how did they get there from the ocean's way up into the desert mountain's a thousand miles away.

No, just no. This is face palmingly bad on your part.

What about the dinosaurs bones which scientist have dated to be around Millions of years old.
This I never could figure out, when I was younger in my 8th grade science class,
To discover about Dinosaurs bones being Millions of years old.
But yet being taught that the earth is only 6000 years old, I would ask myself, how can this be, how can something like the Dinosaurs bones being Millions of years old fit into something that's 6000 years old.

Of course, that only demonstrates what we already know. That the Bible is wrong.

It just will not work. You can not get a Millions yrs to fit into 6000.

I don't care how you go about to figure it, You will not get a Millions yrs to fit into 6000 yrs.

But you can figure 6000 yrs into a Millions yrs.
I couldn't began to tell you just how many disputes I've had with many Christians over this.
But for some reason, they just do not get it.

Literalists are crazy. There is no helping most of them.

That you can not nor ever get a Millions yrs to fit inside 6000 yrs.

If you ever do Figure how to get a Millions yrs to fit inside 6000 yrs, let me know.

So we have the Dinosaurs bones Millions yrs old, standing there as witnesses to the fact that the earth is much older than 6000 yrs.
As some Christians want to believe the earth is only 6000 yrs old. I have as of yet to believe that nonsense.

Fine, you are not a YEC. But let's keep our focus. We are dealing with the flood myth.

You can seem to decide how bad the flood was. Anything beyond a flood that was ten meters deep in a flood plain (a low lying area) is pretty much known not to have happened. In other words you won't find a flood large enough. A flood the size that you propose would have left evidence. There is none.

And please, how many people survived the flood in your version?

 

[metis]

A much more fruitful discussion would be to discuss what exactly are the morals and values taught within the Flood Narrative versus just debating whether it did happen as a historical fact. Whether one takes that narrative as history or not really has no bearing on how we live today and what lessons can we learn from it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

A much more fruitful discussion would be to discuss what exactly are the morals and values taught within the Flood Narrative versus just debating whether it did happen as a historical fact. Whether one takes that narrative as history or not really has no bearing on how we live today and what lessons can we learn from it.

The story does work as a morality tale. And therefore goes along with the verse:

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,"

Literalists please note, not even the Bible claims to be literally true. It merely says that all of it is useful. It does not even claim to be the "word of God".

 

[Faithofchristian]

Please try to pay attention. The question is not whether some life would die, the question is whether all life would die. How would a local flood kill all the ebil? Some would not do the trick.



Whoa!! Make up your mind. Now they have to climb a mountain? There have not been any floods of that size during man's time on the Earth.



Now you are merely repeating errors.



What do you mean by "race"? The term race, as applied to people is merely a sociological description. There are not any races or subspecies of man. Are you trying to say that more than Noah's family were in the Ark? How many people are you proposing?



No, just no. This is face palmingly bad on your part.



Of course, that only demonstrates what we already know. That the Bible is wrong.



Literalists are crazy. There is no helping most of them.



Fine, you are not a YEC. But let's keep our focus. We are dealing with the flood myth.

You can seem to decide how bad the flood was. Anything beyond a flood that was ten meters deep in a flood plain (a low lying area) is pretty much known not to have happened. In other words you won't find a flood large enough. A flood the size that you propose would have left evidence. There is none.

And please, how many people survived the flood in your version?

To best answer your question, Many Christians themselves will argue over just many people were on the ark with Noah and his family. Yes there were other people on the ark besides Noah and his family.

Not everyone died by the flood of Noah's. there were people still alive after the flood of Noah's.

One of the sons of Noah was Japheth and Japheth had a son who is Javan and Javan had 3 sons who are Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim,
That by these 3 sons, were the isles of the Gentiles divided.. Genesis 10:5

Now the question arises, where did the Gentiles come from, if supposedly all life had died in the flood of Noah's.
Genesis 10:4-5.

When I present this question to alot of Christians, it sends them into a tail spend.
Trying to dispute it, but it's there plain to see.

If the flood of Noah's was to destroy all life, Then where did the isles of the Gentiles come from, After the flood of Noah's ?

 

[Subduction Zone]

To best answer your question, Many Christians themselves will argue over just many people were on the ark with Noah and his family. Yes there were other people on the ark besides Noah and his family.

Now you are directly contradicting the Bible.

Not everyone died by the flood of Noah's. there were people still alive after the flood of Noah's.

One of the sons of Noah was Japheth and Japheth had a son who is Javan and Javan had 3 sons who are Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim,
That by these 3 sons, were the isles of the Gentiles divided.. Genesis 10:5

Please try to pay attention. I said besides Noah and his family.

Now the question arises, where did the Gentiles come from, if supposedly all life had died in the flood of Noah's.
Genesis 10:4-5.

When I present this question to alot of Christians, it sends them into a tail spend.
Trying to dispute it, but it's there plain to see.

If the flood of Noah's was to destroy all life, Then where did the isles of the Gentiles come from, After the flood of Noah's ?

What makes you think that all of Noah's family would follow the same god?

The problem is that you still appear to want a flood far greater than has ever happened anywhere in that area. Second, any flood that was not on that order would have resulted in many, if not most people escaping it. Third, with your version of the flood there was no need to collect animals. They would have survived with or without a magical boat with your local flood.

Next let's get into genetics. Genetics tells us that there was no flood. About 10,000 years ago the breeding population of African cheetahs got down to ten or even fewer individuals. Today as a result one can take a skin graft from one cheetah and graft it onto another. They are more closely related to each other than you are to your brother, unless you have a brother that is an identical twin. This phenomenon is called a Population Bottleneck. We do not see the universal population bottleneck that the flood myth predicts:

Population bottleneck - Wikipedia

The obvious answer to both you and literalists is that there was no flood. You can't reinterpret the flood to a point where it does not fail.

But like many myths it probably had a basis in an actual event. There was a flood in the Euphrates Tigris valley system that could have inspired the myth:

Yes, Noah's Flood May Have Happened, But Not Over the Whole Earth

Please note, a large local flood did happen in that rough area. But the ark part would have been unneeded and nonsensical.[/quote]

 

[james dixon]

I believe the use of the term “Ark “ was an analogy stated in a way the people at the time could understand.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

It can be taken allegorically as it appears that it's most likely to be based on a Babylonian narrative but then modified to reflect Jewish teachings and beliefs. The importance of the Flood narrative is not whether it happened historically but what exactly are those teaching and beliefs, the latter of which are quite usable today.

I am curious as to which Babylonian narrative you have in mind.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

For some reason everyone seems to think, that the flood of Noah's was the only flood to ever come upon the earth.
Unto which it wasn't. The flood of Noah's was only concentrated only in one area on the earth. And not the whole earth it's self.

I would like to hear your understanding of Genesis 7:19 (hills) and Genesis 7:20 (mountains)

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Yes, there are quite a few ignorant and even dishonest people in the world. So what?
And quote mining the Bible is not only dishonest, for a Christian it should be blasphemous. I don't take such quote mines any more seriously than you would take the quote mines from the Bible that tell us "There is no God". Twelve different times by the way.

'So what ?' I find that is answered at 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13 that we are in the last days of badness on Earth before Jesus will involve himself into mankind's affairs to rid the Earth of wickedness.
Only those who never have contact with Scripture could be considered as ignorant. Such a person could still be judged as one of those figurative humble ' sheep ' of Matthew 25:31-33,37 at this coming ' time of separation ' to take place on Earth.

Please post those twelve (12) different times as listed in Scripture.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

There is more than one version of the afterlife in the Bible. All one has to do is to pick and choose which verses to believe.

What ' after life ' did Adam have but only 'returning to the dust of the ground' as per Genesis 3:19.
So, what version of ' after life ' did Adam have because I can't find any.
Adam simply went back to where he started. A person can Not ' return ' to a place he never was before.

Sure, we can all pick and choose like a cafeteria style, but is that pick and choose in harmony with Scripture.
In other words, ALL Scripture must be taken into consideration to make a complete picture.
I believe what Jesus taught at John 11:11-14 that the dead are in a sleep-like state.
Adam ' returning ' to the dust of the ground puts Adam in a sleep-like or unconscious state.
Jesus, being well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures knew they taught sleep in death.
The Psalmists believed in sleep and silence in death as found at Psalms 6:5; 13:3; 115:17; 146:4.
King Solomon, known for his wisdom, also believed the dead know nothing as he wrote at Ecclesiastes 9:5.
The prophet Daniel looked forward ( Not to afterlife ) but to a later future resurrection at Daniel 12:2,13.
To me, I choose to believe what Jesus and the Hebrew Scriptures teach about death being like sleep.
Even the word cemetery means: sleeping place. R.I.P. ( Rest in Peace ) Not unrest in some conscious state.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Now you are directly contradicting the Bible.

So if you believe that I am directly contradicting the bible, Then prove me wrong or otherwise prove Genesis 10:4-5 to be wrong.



Please try to pay attention. I said besides Noah and his family.



What makes you think that all of Noah's family would follow the same god?

What makes you think that all of Noah's family wouldn't follow the same God ?

The problem is that you still appear to want a flood far greater than has ever happened anywhere in that area. Second, any flood that was not on that order would have resulted in many, if not most people escaping it. Third, with your version of the flood there was no need to collect animals. They would have survived with or without a magical boat with your local flood.

Next let's get into genetics. Genetics tells us that there was no flood. About 10,000 years ago the breeding population of African cheetahs got down to ten or even fewer individuals. Today as a result one can take a skin graft from one cheetah and graft it onto another. They are more closely related to each other than you are to your brother, unless you have a brother that is an identical twin. This phenomenon is called a Population Bottleneck. We do not see the universal population bottleneck that the flood myth predicts:

Population bottleneck - Wikipedia

The obvious answer to both you and literalists is that there was no flood. You can't reinterpret the flood to a point where it does not fail.

But like many myths it probably had a basis in an actual event. There was a flood in the Euphrates Tigris valley system that could have inspired the myth:

Yes, Noah's Flood May Have Happened, But Not Over the Whole Earth

Please note, a large local flood did happen in that rough area. But the ark part would have been unneeded and nonsensical.

[/QUOTE]

I would like to hear your understanding of Genesis 7:19 (hills) and Genesis 7:20 (mountains)

I would like to hear your understanding of Genesis 7:19 (hills) and Genesis 7:20 (mountains)

Are you freaking kidding me, your telling me, that in Genesis 7:19 and Genesis 7:20, That you do not know the difference between a Hill and a Mountain. Now that's amazing.

 

[Subduction Zone]

'So what ?' I find that is answered at 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13 that we are in the last days of badness on Earth before Jesus will involve himself into mankind's affairs to rid the Earth of wickedness.
Only those who never have contact with Scripture could be considered as ignorant. Such a person could still be judged as one of those figurative humble ' sheep ' of Matthew 25:31-33,37 at this coming ' time of separation ' to take place on Earth.

Please post those twelve (12) different times as listed in Scripture.

After we discuss why we know that there was no flood. I believe that I already said that once.

And let's try to keep focused on one myth in the Bible at a time for now.

 

[Subduction Zone]

What ' after life ' did Adam have but only 'returning to the dust of the ground' as per Genesis 3:19.
So, what version of ' after life ' did Adam have because I can't find any.
Adam simply went back to where he started. A person can Not ' return ' to a place he never was before.

Sure, we can all pick and choose like a cafeteria style, but is that pick and choose in harmony with Scripture.
In other words, ALL Scripture must be taken into consideration to make a complete picture.
I believe what Jesus taught at John 11:11-14 that the dead are in a sleep-like state.
Adam ' returning ' to the dust of the ground puts Adam in a sleep-like or unconscious state.
Jesus, being well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures knew they taught sleep in death.
The Psalmists believed in sleep and silence in death as found at Psalms 6:5; 13:3; 115:17; 146:4.
King Solomon, known for his wisdom, also believed the dead know nothing as he wrote at Ecclesiastes 9:5.
The prophet Daniel looked forward ( Not to afterlife ) but to a later future resurrection at Daniel 12:2,13.
To me, I choose to believe what Jesus and the Hebrew Scriptures teach about death being like sleep.
Even the word cemetery means: sleeping place. R.I.P. ( Rest in Peace ) Not unrest in some conscious state.

Adam was a myth so your question is moot. You might as well ask about what happened to Paul Bunyan after he died.

And all Christians pick and choose which parts of the Bible to believe and follow. Only a true psychopath could attempt to follow the Bible.

Once again, let's deal with the flood myth first. Then we can deal with other topics in the Bible.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Are you freaking kidding me, your telling me, that in Genesis 7:19 and Genesis 7:20, That you do not know the difference between a Hill and a Mountain. Now that's amazing.

To me there seems to be a comprehension understanding of Genesis 7:19 and Genesis 7:20 because No where do I read that there is No difference between a hill and a mountain. I would like to hear what your school's English teacher would have to respond about those two verses.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Adam was a myth so your question is moot. You might as well ask about what happened to Paul Bunyan after he died.
And all Christians pick and choose which parts of the Bible to believe and follow. Only a true psychopath could attempt to follow the Bible.
Once again, let's deal with the flood myth first. Then we can deal with other topics in the Bible.

Even if Paul Bunyan was a real person, I find according to Scripture, at death he would be in a sleep-like state.
Whether Adam was myth or not, the Scripture teaches there was No post-mortem life for Adam.
The Adam of Genesis simply ceased to exist by ' returning ' to the dust of the ground as per Genesis 3:19.
Sure, we can all pick and choose to accept what happened to Adam.
Most apparently choose to reject that the dead are in death's unconscious sleep.

Seems to me you are referring to Jesus as being a true psychopath because Jesus Not only attempted to follow Scripture, Jesus did follow Scripture. Jesus often prefaced his statements with the words, " it is written...." meaning already written down in the old Hebrew Scriptures.

What is to deal with the Flood account because that is what the Bible really teaches.
As you say we can all pick and choose including to accept the Flood account or Not.
Jesus, at Matthew 24:37-38, chose to accept it as a real happening.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Are you freaking kidding me, your telling me, that in Genesis 7:19 and Genesis 7:20, That you do not know the difference between a Hill and a Mountain. Now that's amazing.

To me there seems to be a comprehension understanding of Genesis 7:19 and Genesis 7:20 because No where do I read that there is No difference between a hill and a mountain. I would like to hear what your school's English teacher would have to respond about those two verses.[/QUOTE]


In Genesis 7:19 is signifying that the water covering the hills.
And then in Genesis 7:20 is signifying that the water also covered the Mountain's.

Not only did the water covered the hills, But also covered the Mountain's.

I do not get how you get the Hills and Mountain's as being one and the same, unto which they are not one and the same.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

To me there seems to be a comprehension understanding of Genesis 7:19 and Genesis 7:20 because No where do I read that there is No difference between a hill and a mountain. I would like to hear what your school's English teacher would have to respond about those two verses.
In Genesis 7:19 is signifying that the water covering the hills.
And then in Genesis 7:20 is signifying that the water also covered the Mountain's.
Not only did the water covered the hills, But also covered the Mountain's.
I do not get how you get the Hills and Mountain's as being one and the same, unto which they are not one and the same.

To me No one is saying they are one in the same, but what is covered 'world wide' according to Genesis 7:19-21.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Even if Paul Bunyan was a real person, I find according to Scripture, at death he would be in a sleep-like state.
Whether Adam was myth or not, the Scripture teaches there was No post-mortem life for Adam.
The Adam of Genesis simply ceased to exist by ' returning ' to the dust of the ground as per Genesis 3:19.
Sure, we can all pick and choose to accept what happened to Adam.
Most apparently choose to reject that the dead are in death's unconscious sleep.

Seems to me you are referring to Jesus as being a true psychopath because Jesus Not only attempted to follow Scripture, Jesus did follow Scripture. Jesus often prefaced his statements with the words, " it is written...." meaning already written down in the old Hebrew Scriptures.

What is to deal with the Flood account because that is what the Bible really teaches.
As you say we can all pick and choose including to accept the Flood account or Not.
Jesus, at Matthew 24:37-38, chose to accept it as a real happening.

Nope, Jesus did not follow scripture. And he mocked it at times. He gathered grains on the Sabbath, He was against stoning an adulteress. There are many other examples. He was not a psychopath, he probably would not advocate stoning disobedient children either.
And no, Jesus never said that the flood really happened. Obviously you do not understand how Jesus taught many of his lessons.

I am doing you a favor by pointing out that Jesus did not ever say that the flood was real. If he said it was he would have been as ignorant as all of the other people of his times and just a man.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Nope, Jesus did not follow scripture. And he mocked it at times. He gathered grains on the Sabbath, He was against stoning an adulteress. There are many other examples. He was not a psychopath, he probably would not advocate stoning disobedient children either.
And no, Jesus never said that the flood really happened. Obviously you do not understand how Jesus taught many of his lessons.

I am doing you a favor by pointing out that Jesus did not ever say that the flood was real. If he said it was he would have been as ignorant as all of the other people of his times and just a man.

Seeing that you never explained why Jesus said and done things, Well first remember people back at that time were going by the Old Testament, for the New Testament had not been written Yet.

#1-- What was the reason why the disciples took and ate on the Sabbath?

The reason why the disciples of Jesus took and ate corn on the Sabbath, because it was lawful for a man who is hungry on the Sabbath day to eat.


#2 -- What was the reason why Jesus didn't allow the woman caught in Adultery to be stoned ?
The reason why Jesus defended the woman that was caught in Adultery, Because according to the law, that God gave unto Moses, to put to death the woman, the man that is caught in Adultery with her is also to be put to death.
It takes a man and a woman, to make a case of Adultery.
Therefore they could not stone the woman to death without the man, that both of them are to be put to death.
Leviticus 20:10--"And the man that commits adultery with another man's wife, even he that commits adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death"
That's why Jesus defended the woman caught in Adultery. Without the man, They had nothing.

#3 -- Now as for you saying Jesus never said the flood of Noah's never happen.

Jesus most certainly did. Jesus spoke about the flood of Noah's in the book of Matthew 24:37-39, saying, "But as the days of Noah's were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be, For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying, and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away, So shall also the coming of the Son of man be"

It sounds pretty much that Jesus did in fact take the flood of Noah's did happen.
Otherwise why would Jesus make mention of the flood of Noah's ?