For Muslims: Is Muhammad the last Prophet from God?

[Truthseeker]

I am aiming to show that Muhammad was not the last prophet of God to Muslims, not more than that. Of course many of you know that I have a particular prophet in mind, but I will not seek to prove that that prophet is the next prophet of God to Muslims. I carefully gleaned the following from a Moojan Momen book. The Qur'an quotes, some of the reasoning behind presenting these are his, and I carefully checked out if what he was presenting was valid or a stretch. As this is in General Religious Debates anyone can join in, but I encourage Muslims to do so.

40. Muhammad is not
The father of any
Of your men, but (he is)
The Apostle of God,
And the Seal of the Prophets:
And God has full knowledge
Of all things.
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 33.40

I will not dispute the meaning of this verse at first, we can argue that along the way, but start with this verse from the Qur'an:

Then is it only a part of the
Book That ye believe in,
And do ye reject the rest?
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 2.85

This portion of that verse says to me that we need to consider the whole of the Qur'an in order to come to a logical conclusion.

34. To every People is a term. Appointed: when their term Is reached, not an hour Can they cause delay, Nor (an hour) can they Advance (it in anticipation).

35. O ye Children of Adam! Whenever there come to you Apostles from amongst you, Rehearsing My Signs unto you, Those who are righteous And mend (their lives), — On them shall be no fear Nor shall they grieve.
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 7.34

The original Arabic translated as people is I opine is a religious community. Apostles rehearsing signs can also be translated as Messengers. This translation is from Yusuf Ali.

Also in the Qur'an it is stated;

47. To every people (was sent)
An Apostle: when their Apostle
Comes (before them), the matter
Will be judged between them
With justice, and they
Will not be wronged.
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 10.47

Also translated by Yusuf Ali. All these passage are translated by Yusuf Ali. What this partially establishes is the “people” means “religious community”, and “Apostle” means “Messenger”. It also says that in the past one of these Messengers was sent to every “religious community” in the world. The reference to “the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged.” means to me that the religious community this Messenger comes to will be judged by their response to this Messenger in a just way.

Also notice this verse:

67. To every People have We
Appointed rites and ceremonies
Which they must follow:
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 22.67

What else but a religious community would have appointed rites and ceremonies? So people translated by Yusuf Ali means religious community. So to return back to the original verses:

34. To every People is a term Appointed: when their term Is reached, not an hour Can they cause delay, Nor (an hour) can they Advance (it in anticipation).

35. O ye Children of Adam! Whenever there come to you Apostles from amongst you, Rehearsing My Signs unto you, Those who are righteous And mend (their lives), — On them shall be no fear Nor shall they grieve.
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 7.34

For every religious community is a term appointed with no exception. I assert that this includes the Islamic community. Also “the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged.” I derive from Qur'an 10:47.

I also am of the opinion that the new Messenger comes with a new holy book and a new teaching confirming part of the teachings of the Qur'an, but also abrogating part of it.

38. We did send apostles Before thee, and appointed For them wives and children: And it was never the part Of an apostle to bring a Sign Except as God permitted (Or commanded). For each period Is a Book (revealed).

39. God doth blot out Or confirm what He pleaseth: With Him is The Mother of the Book.
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 13.38

There is no limit of how many Words of God could be revealed.

27. And if all the trees
On earth were pens
And the Ocean (were ink),
With seven Oceans behind it
To add to its (supply),
Yet would not the Words
Of God be exhausted
(In the writing): for God
Is Exalted in power,
Full of Wisdom.
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 31.27

God has established a covenant that whenever a Messenger of God comes, human beings should accept that Messenger and help him:

81. Behold! God took
The Covenant of the Prophets,
Saying: “I give you
A Book and Wisdom;
Then comes to you
An Apostle, confirming
What is with you;
Do ye believe in him
And render him help.”
God said: “Do ye agree,
And take this my Covenant
As binding on you?”
They said: “We agree.”
He said: “Then bear witness,
And I am with you
Among the witnesses.”
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 3.81

The Qur'an confirms that this covenant was taken with all of the messengers, including Muhammad.

7. And remember We took
From the Prophets their
Covenant:
As (We did) from thee:
From Noah, Abraham, Moses,
And Jesus the son of Mary:
We took from them
A solemn Covenant:
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 33.7

There will always be a need for Messengers of God:

95. Say, “If there were settled,
On earth, angels walking about
In peace and quiet, We should
Certainly have sent them
Down from the heavens
An angel for an apostle.”
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 17.95

 

[Link]

34. To every People is a term. Appointed: when their term Is reached, not an hour Can they cause delay, Nor (an hour) can they Advance (it in anticipation).

Salam

What is the context of this verse? It talks about "term" in context of destroyed nations of the past. Every nation that was destroyed, when their term came they could not delay nor advance it. When God wants to destroy a people, he warns through a Messenger, then when a time is set for that destruction it will come, and believers will follow the Messenger and be saved, while disbelievers destroyed.

 

[Link]

38. We did send apostles Before thee, and appointed For them wives and children: And it was never the part Of an apostle to bring a Sign Except as God permitted (Or commanded). For each period Is a Book (revealed).

39. God doth blot out Or confirm what He pleaseth: With Him is The Mother of the Book.
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 13.38

Mohammad (s) was the only Nabi (s) to be not succeeded by Prophets. So the periods before, they didn't have just one book, but many books. This is why for example it says Mariam (a) believed in his books.

The context of the verses you quote with the Surah also refers to that each term had a writing for destruction, then God can erase of that or establish it. For example the people of Yonus (a) - it was written they be destroyed, but God canceled that, and when they saw punishment coming, they prayed and turned to God and so God cancelled the punishment.

However, the other verse shows, if it comes, then you can't delay nor was it upon people to advance it.

 

[Link]

There is no limit of how many Words of God could be revealed.

27. And if all the trees
On earth were pens
And the Ocean (were ink),
With seven Oceans behind it
To add to its (supply),
Yet would not the Words
Of God be exhausted
(In the writing): for God
Is Exalted in power,
Full of Wisdom.
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 31.27

This can only be true if the universe didn't have end term. Per Quran, the heavens and earth comes to an end at sometime, it says it's created in truth and for a limited amount of time.

This verse was actually revealed after the "they ask about the Ruh" verse, and people objected and I think it was some Jews who said Quran is a plan simple book with no deep meaning, and so this verse was revealed in reply to that.

It means God's words has many doors and meanings and infinite in wisdom. We can't grasp the depth of the Quran. If we try to write all the knowledge it has, we cannot.

 

[Link]

81. Behold! God took
The Covenant of the Prophets,
Saying: “I give you
A Book and Wisdom;
Then comes to you
An Apostle, confirming
What is with you;
Do ye believe in him
And render him help.”
God said: “Do ye agree,
And take this my Covenant
As binding on you?”
They said: “We agree.”
He said: “Then bear witness,
And I am with you
Among the witnesses.”
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 3.81

This refers to every generic Messenger, it's not about a specific one, but also includes the Mahdi (a) who is a Non-Nabi Messenger.

 

[Link]

There will always be a need for Messengers of God:

95. Say, “If there were settled,
On earth, angels walking about
In peace and quiet, We should
Certainly have sent them
Down from the heavens
An angel for an apostle.”
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 17.95

Messengers are always needed. The thing is so is a book from God which is Nubuwa. The Quran is safeguarded, so there is no need of more Nabis. However, the message is distorted and misunderstood, so there is a need of a Messenger. Just that Imam Mahdi and Imams before him going back to Ali (a) (included) were non-Nabi Messengers.

 

[Truthseeker]

Salam

What is the context of this verse? It talks about "term" in context of destroyed nations of the past. Every nation that was destroyed, when their term came they could not delay nor advance it. When God wants to destroy a people, he warns through a Messenger, then when a time is set for that destruction it will come, and believers will follow the Messenger and be saved, while disbelievers destroyed.

I think we can have a friendly discussion. You argue in a friendly way, I have found.

No, I believe "term" refers to the time when the a people's religion has been superseded by the next religion. In the Qur'an it is expressed often that the people the new Messenger comes to is destroyed, but the reason they are destroyed in my view is because they rejected the new Messenger. I don't know if every time when a Messenger comes the people is described as being destroyed. I know I have seen them often as being destroyed in some way. You would know that better than I would. I don't profess to have more knowledge of the Qur'an than you do. @InvestigateTruth is the Islam expert among Baha'is, and I can't vouch to how deep his knowledge is.

In 13:38 for Yusuf Ali he says:
For each period
Is a Book (revealed).
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 13.38

According to Momen, the word "period" is a translation of the word "ajal", which is the same word that is translated as "term" in that verse. That's the best I can put forward.

 

[Link]

I think we can have a friendly discussion. You argue in a friendly way, I have found.

No, I believe "term" refers to the time when the a people's religion has been superseded by the next religion. In the Qur'an it is expressed often that the people the new Messenger comes to is destroyed, but the reason they are destroyed in my view is because they rejected the new Messenger. I don't know if every time when a Messenger comes the people is described as being destroyed. I know I have seen them often as being destroyed in some way. You would know that better than I would. I don't profess to have more knowledge of the Qur'an than you do. @InvestigateTruth is the Islam expert among Baha'is, and I can't vouch to how deep his knowledge is.

In 13:38 for Yusuf Ali he says:
For each period
Is a Book (revealed).
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 13.38

According to Momen, the word "period" is a translation of the word "ajal", which is the same word that is translated as "term" in that verse. That's the best I can put forward.

I would read the context of the destroyed nations in Surah Aa'raaf, and through out Quran. A collection of some of these verses: A collection of verses: warnings about the Mahdi (a) as far destruction is concerned.

A real important Surah that prophesizes the Mahdi as a Messenger of God (not a Nabi though):


Surah 17

مَنِ اهْتَدَىٰ فَإِنَّمَا يَهْتَدِي لِنَفْسِهِ ۖ وَمَنْ ضَلَّ فَإِنَّمَا يَضِلُّ عَلَيْهَا ۚ وَلَا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَىٰ ۗ وَمَا كُنَّا مُعَذِّبِينَ حَتَّىٰ نَبْعَثَ رَسُولًا | Whoever is guided is guided only for [the good of] his own soul, and whoever goes astray, goes astray only to its detriment. No bearer shall bear another’s burden. We do not punish [any community] until We have sent [it] an apostle. | Al-Israa : 15

وَإِذَا أَرَدْنَا أَنْ نُهْلِكَ قَرْيَةً أَمَرْنَا مُتْرَفِيهَا فَفَسَقُوا فِيهَا فَحَقَّ عَلَيْهَا الْقَوْلُ فَدَمَّرْنَاهَا تَدْمِيرًا | And when We desire to destroy a town We command its affluent ones [to obey Allah]. But they commit transgression in it, and so the word becomes due against it, and We destroy it utterly. | Al-Israa : 16

وَكَمْ أَهْلَكْنَا مِنَ الْقُرُونِ مِنْ بَعْدِ نُوحٍ ۗ وَكَفَىٰ بِرَبِّكَ بِذُنُوبِ عِبَادِهِ خَبِيرًا بَصِيرًا | And how many towns/generations We have destroyed since Noah! Your Lord is sufficient as [a witness who is] well aware and percipient of His servants’ sins. | Al-Israa : 17

وَإِنْ مِنْ قَرْيَةٍ إِلَّا نَحْنُ مُهْلِكُوهَا قَبْلَ يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ أَوْ مُعَذِّبُوهَا عَذَابًا شَدِيدًا ۚ كَانَ ذَٰلِكَ فِي الْكِتَابِ مَسْطُورًا | And there is not a town but We will destroy it before the Day of Resurrection, or punish it with a severe punishment. That has been written in the Book. | Al-Israa : 58

وَمَا مَنَعَنَا أَنْ نُرْسِلَ بِالْآيَاتِ إِلَّا أَنْ كَذَّبَ بِهَا الْأَوَّلُونَ ۚ وَآتَيْنَا ثَمُودَ النَّاقَةَ مُبْصِرَةً فَظَلَمُوا بِهَا ۚ وَمَا نُرْسِلُ بِالْآيَاتِ إِلَّا تَخْوِيفًا | Nothing keeps Us from sending signs except that the former peoples denied them. We gave Thamud the she-camel as an eye-opener, but they wronged her. We do not send the signs except as warning. | Al-Israa : 59

أَفَأَمِنْتُمْ أَنْ يَخْسِفَ بِكُمْ جَانِبَ الْبَرِّ أَوْ يُرْسِلَ عَلَيْكُمْ حَاصِبًا ثُمَّ لَا تَجِدُوا لَكُمْ وَكِيلًا | Do you feel secure that He will not make the coastland swallow you, or He will not unleash upon you a rain of stones? Then you will not find any defender for yourselves. | Al-Israa : 68

أَمْ أَمِنْتُمْ أَنْ يُعِيدَكُمْ فِيهِ تَارَةً أُخْرَىٰ فَيُرْسِلَ عَلَيْكُمْ قَاصِفًا مِنَ الرِّيحِ فَيُغْرِقَكُمْ بِمَا كَفَرْتُمْ ۙ ثُمَّ لَا تَجِدُوا لَكُمْ عَلَيْنَا بِهِ تَبِيعًا | Do you feel secure that He will not send you back into it another time and unleash against you a shattering gale and drown you because of your unfaith? Then you will not find for yourselves any redresser against Us. | Al-Israa : 69

وَإِنْ كَادُوا لَيَسْتَفِزُّونَكَ مِنَ الْأَرْضِ لِيُخْرِجُوكَ مِنْهَا ۖ وَإِذًا لَا يَلْبَثُونَ خِلَافَكَ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا | They were about to hound you out of the land, to expel you from it, but then they would not have stayed after you but a little. | Al-Israa : 76

سُنَّةَ مَنْ قَدْ أَرْسَلْنَا قَبْلَكَ مِنْ رُسُلِنَا ۖ وَلَا تَجِدُ لِسُنَّتِنَا تَحْوِيلًا | A precedent concerning those We have sent before you from among Our apostles, and you will not find any change in Our precedent. | Al-Israa : 77

فَأَرَادَ أَنْ يَسْتَفِزَّهُمْ مِنَ الْأَرْضِ فَأَغْرَقْنَاهُ وَمَنْ مَعَهُ جَمِيعًا | He desired to exterminate them from the land, so We drowned him and all those who were with him. | Al-Israa : 103



58 verse in this Surah shows cities opposing the Mahdi (a) and seek to oppress his believers will be destroyed or punished severely before the day of judgment. The context of the type of destruction is clear. It doesn't mean spiritual here, it means physical like Nuh's (a) people and Ad and Thamood type.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Salam

What is the context of this verse? It talks about "term" in context of destroyed nations of the past. Every nation that was destroyed, when their term came they could not delay nor advance it. When God wants to destroy a people, he warns through a Messenger, then when a time is set for that destruction it will come, and believers will follow the Messenger and be saved, while disbelievers destroyed.

Can you explain, in your understanding of the verse, what is it meant by a Nation?

How does the Quran defines the word "Ummah"?

Do you think by Ummah is meant, a country, such as Iran, USA, France, Iraq?

Or the Quran means something else by the word "Ummah"?

 

[Link]

Can you explain, in your understanding of the verse, what is it meant by a Nation?

How does the Quran defines the word "Ummah"?

Do you think by Ummah is meant, a country, such as Iran, USA, France, Iraq?

Or the Quran means something else by the word "Ummah"?

It depends on the context. For example every ummah has a witness from them, that means, from one perspective, Allah (swt) borders people through time of Imams (a). So Mohammad (s) ummah would be until he died, then Ali (a) ummah till he died, then Hassan (a) till he died. This doesn't matter what nation we belong to border wise in the man made borders, but rather Imams are the borders.

Other times, it's talking about local community. Or a people a Messenger was sent to.

You have to see the context. In Surah A'araaf the context is about people who were destroyed physically by God. So it doesn't mean the same type of a witness per nation, because those were local destructions and didn't extent to the whole world nor were believers destroyed.

Sometimes it talks about nations as in religious sects, so every sect is an umma (see Surah A'raaf about bani-Israel).

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It depends on the context. For example every ummah has a witness from them, that means, from one perspective, Allah (swt) borders people through time of Imams (a). So Mohammad (s) ummah would be until he died, then Ali (a) ummah till he died, then Hassan (a) till he died. This doesn't matter what nation we belong to border wise in the man made borders, but rather Imams are the borders.

Other times, it's talking about local community. Or a people a Messenger was sent to.

You have to see the context. In Surah A'araaf the context is about people who were destroyed physically by God. So it doesn't mean the same type of a witness per nation, because those were local destructions and didn't extent to the whole world nor were believers destroyed.

Sometimes it talks about nations as in religious sects, so every sect is an umma (see Surah A'raaf about bani-Israel).

This is where, using Hadithes would shed light.
My understanding is, Ummah in the Quran and in Hadithes, only means one thing.
It does not mean Multiple things.

Let me ask you. You are saying, for example you can say Ummah of Ali.

Please show a Hadith that says Ummah of Imam Ali.

 

[Link]

My understanding is, Ummah in the Quran and in Hadithes, only means one thing.
It does not mean Multiple things.

So your understanding is again wrong, just like your understanding that Mohammad (s) is Angel is simply wrong by many verses. I don't care what you understand.

 

[Link]

Please show a Hadith that says Ummah of Imam Ali.

There are hadiths explaining verses this way and talking about this way. We been through these hadiths in the past. I am not going to fetch hadiths every time at your whims.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

There are hadiths explaining verses this way and talking about this way. We been through these hadiths in the past. I am not going to fetch hadiths every time at your whims.

Well here is a famous Hadith:

الخصال:عن عليّ بن أبي طالب عليه السّلام قال:سمعت رسول اللّه صلّى اللّه عليه و آله و سلّم يقول: انّ أمّة موسى عليه السّلام افترقت بعده على إحدى و سبعين فرقة،فرقة منها ناجية و سبعون في النار و افترقت أمّة عيسى عليه السّلام بعده على اثنتين و سبعين فرقة،فرقة منها ناجية واحدى و سبعون في النار،و انّ أمّتي ستفترق بعدي على ثلاثة و سبعين فرقة،فرقة منها ناجية و اثنتان و سبعون في النار، و بمضمونها روايات كثيرة [4].


The Prophet saidz Ummah of Moses was divided to 71 secs,....Ummah of Jesus was divided to 72 Secs, and My Ummah will be divided to 73 sects....

So, Ummah, is the community of a Particular Messenger. For example All those who are adherents of Jesus are entirely called Ummah of Jesus.

But, the point is, the verse 7:34 says, Every Ummah has a period...

So, there is no exception. That means Ummah of Jesus was assigned a Period to it.

If you say, by this, it is meant, it will be destroyed, then why Ummah of Jesus was not literally destroyed when they have Rejected Muhammad?

 

[Link]

Well here is a famous Hadith:

الخصال:عن عليّ بن أبي طالب عليه السّلام قال:سمعت رسول اللّه صلّى اللّه عليه و آله و سلّم يقول: انّ أمّة موسى عليه السّلام افترقت بعده على إحدى و سبعين فرقة،فرقة منها ناجية و سبعون في النار و افترقت أمّة عيسى عليه السّلام بعده على اثنتين و سبعين فرقة،فرقة منها ناجية واحدى و سبعون في النار،و انّ أمّتي ستفترق بعدي على ثلاثة و سبعين فرقة،فرقة منها ناجية و اثنتان و سبعون في النار، و بمضمونها روايات كثيرة [4].


The Prophet saidz Ummah of Moses was divided to 71 secs,....Ummah of Jesus was divided to 72 Secs, and My Ummah will be divided to 73 sects....

So, Ummah, is the community of a Particular Messenger. For example All those who are adherents of Jesus are entirely called Ummah of Jesus.

But, the point is, the verse 7:34 says, Every Ummah has a period...

So, there is no exception. That means Ummah of Jesus was assigned a Period to it.

If you say, by this, it is meant, it will be destroyed, then why Ummah of Jesus was not literally destroyed when they have Rejected Muhammad?

Okay. Whatever. And Quran says Mohammad (s) is an Angel, day of judgment is a Prophet appearing, and seal of Prophets mean Mohammad (s) is some kind of ring on all Prophets.

You are a joke. For real.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Okay. Whatever. And Quran says Mohammad (s) is an Angel, day of judgment is a Prophet appearing, and seal of Prophets mean Mohammad (s) is some kind of ring on all Prophets.

You are a joke. For real.

Why when Jesus was sent to the Jews, and they Rejected their Messenger, the Jews were not physically destroyed?

Anyways, upto you, if you want to answer.

 

[Link]

Not every Messenger is a destruction type, but if God intends to destroy a people, he will send a Messenger. The other way is not true, it's not the case that if a Messenger is rejected, God will right away destroy the people. You always mix implications directions and confuse yourself.

 

[Truthseeker]

@Link, look at the whole of these quotes, and not just quotes in isolation and carefully consider what I say here.

34. To every People is a term. Appointed: when their term Is reached, not an hour Can they cause delay, Nor (an hour) can they Advance (it in anticipation).

35. O ye Children of Adam! Whenever there come to you Apostles from amongst you, Rehearsing My Signs unto you, Those who are righteous And mend (their lives), — On them shall be no fear Nor shall they grieve.
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 7.34

The original Arabic translated as people is I opine is a religious community. Apostles rehearsing signs can also be translated as Messengers. This translation is from Yusuf Ali.

Also in the Qur'an it is stated;

47. To every people (was sent)
An Apostle: when their Apostle
Comes (before them), the matter
Will be judged between them
With justice, and they
Will not be wronged.
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 10.47

Also translated by Yusuf Ali. All these passage are translated by Yusuf Ali. What this partially establishes is the “people” means “religious community”, and “Apostle” means “Messenger”. It also says that in the past one of these Messengers was sent to every “religious community” in the world. The reference to “the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged.” means to me that the religious community this Messenger comes to will be judged by their response to this Messenger in a just way.

Also notice this verse:

67. To every People have We
Appointed rites and ceremonies
Which they must follow:
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 22.67

What else but a religious community would have appointed rites and ceremonies? So people translated by Yusuf Ali means religious community. So to return back to the original verses:

34. To every People is a term Appointed: when their term Is reached, not an hour Can they cause delay, Nor (an hour) can they Advance (it in anticipation).

35. O ye Children of Adam! Whenever there come to you Apostles from amongst you, Rehearsing My Signs unto you, Those who are righteous And mend (their lives), — On them shall be no fear Nor shall they grieve.
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 7.34

For every religious community is a term appointed with no exception. I assert that this includes the Islamic community. Also “the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged.” I derive from Qur'an 10:47.

 

[Link]

Salam

My recommendation is to see them in the context of the Surah as well over all context of Quran.

I've already explained them.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Not every Messenger is a destruction type, but if God intends to destroy a people, he will send a Messenger.

So, you mean, there are two kind of Messengers: Destruction typez and None-Destruction type.

Is there any verse or at least a Hadith that says that?

The other way is not true, it's not the case that if a Messenger is rejected, God will right away destroy the people. You always mix implications directions and confuse yourself.

You are not addressing the question here.

The verse 7:34 says, every people (Ummah) has a period, once their Time comes, God does not wait even an Hour.

What does this verse talking about?