For Muslims: Is Muhammad the last Prophet from God?

[InvestigateTruth]

Salam

My recommendation is to see them in the context of the Surah as well over all context of Quran.

I've already explained them.

My recommendation is, see, how 7:34 and 7:35 are related, cause these two verse together, show the context.

 

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So, you mean, there are two kind of Messengers: Destruction typez and None-Destruction type.

Is there any verse or at least a Hadith that says that?

Yes. And yes.

What does this verse talking about?

I already addressed it.

 

[Link]

My recommendation is, see, how 7:34 and 7:35 are related, cause these two verse together, show the context.

I would say see the whole chapter and also context of similar themes through out Quran.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I think we can have a friendly discussion. You argue in a friendly way, I have found.

No, I believe "term" refers to the time when the a people's religion has been superseded by the next religion. In the Qur'an it is expressed often that the people the new Messenger comes to is destroyed, but the reason they are destroyed in my view is because they rejected the new Messenger. I don't know if every time when a Messenger comes the people is described as being destroyed. I know I have seen them often as being destroyed in some way. You would know that better than I would. I don't profess to have more knowledge of the Qur'an than you do. @InvestigateTruth is the Islam expert among Baha'is, and I can't vouch to how deep his knowledge is.

In 13:38 for Yusuf Ali he says:
For each period
Is a Book (revealed).
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 13.38

According to Momen, the word "period" is a translation of the word "ajal", which is the same word that is translated as "term" in that verse. That's the best I can put forward.

Well, my take is, this verse of Quran tells it all:

"The Messenger will say, Lord, my people did indeed discard the Quran" 25:30

 

[Link]

Well, my take is, this verse of Quran tells it all:

"The Messenger will say, Lord, my people did indeed discard the Quran" 25:30

At least translate it right, it's in past tense, not future.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

At least translate it right, it's in past tense, not future.

The majority of translation is future tense:

Ayah al-Furqan (The Criterion, The Standard) 25:29

It is about the Day of Resurrection. You can see from the context. Just see a few verses before it says:

:On that Day, the wrongdoer will bite his hands and say, Would that I had walked in the Messengers path" 25:27

 

[Link]

The majority of translation is future tense:

Ayah al-Furqan (The Criterion, The Standard) 25:29

It is about the Day of Resurrection. You can see from the context. Just see a few verses before it says:

:On that Day, the wrongdoer will bite his hands and say, Would that I had walked in the Messengers path" 25:27

Yet the tense is in past. Majority of translations got it wrong in this case.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yet the tense is in past. Majority of translations got it wrong in this case.

Yap, here you are right. But, at the time of Muhammad, Quran had not been revealed completely yet, and was not compiled yes as a Book so, the Muslims have a complete Book with them. Then how does that make sense, Muhammad said this for the past time?

These verses are what Allah is revealing about Day of Resurrection.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yes. And yes.

I already addressed it.

You should support your view with verses and the Hadithes. Just saying Yes, Yes, is not enough if you are debating.

 

[firedragon]

34. To every People is a term. Appointed: when their term Is reached, not an hour Can they cause delay, Nor (an hour) can they Advance (it in anticipation).

35. O ye Children of Adam! Whenever there come to you Apostles from amongst you, Rehearsing My Signs unto you, Those who are righteous And mend (their lives), — On them shall be no fear Nor shall they grieve.
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 7.34

The original Arabic translated as people is I opine is a religious community. Apostles rehearsing signs can also be translated as Messengers. This translation is from Yusuf Ali.

What's the word for "people" in this verse?

 

[Link]

Yap, here you are right. But, at the time of Muhammad, Quran had not been revealed completely yet, and was not compiled yes as a Book so, the Muslims have a complete Book with them. Then how does that make sense, Muhammad said this for the past time?

These verses are what Allah is revealing about Day of Resurrection.

This doesn't go with how Quran and book is used in Quran. It's used to not only for it's full form, but for whatever form it had at the time as well.

 

[Link]

You should support your view with verses and the Hadithes. Just saying Yes, Yes, is not enough if you are debating.

The verse "we don't punish except until we send a Messenger" shows that. Otherwise, it would have said "we punish every time a Messenger is rejected". This suffices, but there are many verses you can combine like the successors of Musa (a) being Messengers yet they weren't destruction types (for example Dawood (a) is not a destruction type) and also the verses about destruction type.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The verse "we don't punish except until we send a Messenger" shows that. Otherwise, it would have said "we punish every time a Messenger is rejected". This suffices, but there are many verses you can combine like the successors of Musa (a) being Messengers yet they weren't destruction types (for example Dawood (a) is not a destruction type) and also the verses about destruction type.

Nope. That is not the issue.

You are saying, the verse that says "every people have an Period" means, God destroys Ummahs by sending a Messenger.

Do you see the problem? On one hand it says "Every People" which means No Exception, and on the other hand you say, it is not every people that is destroyed by every Messenger's rejection. Do you see the contradiction?

Beside this, you need to prove that verse 7:34 is related to the verse that says, "We don't punish except when a Messenger is sent..."

Notice that, these two verses are not within the same Context of the same Surreh. You are putting two verse which has nothing to do with each other, within the same context using your imagination.
I hope you see

 

[Link]

Nope. That is not the issue.

You are saying, the verse that says "every people have an Period" means, God destroys Ummahs by sending a Messenger.

Do you see the problem? On one hand it says "Every People" on the other hand you say, it is not every people that is destroyed by every Messenger. Do you see the contradiction?

Beside this, you need to prove that verse 7:34 is related to the verse that says, "We don't punish except when a Messenger is sent..."

Notice that, these two verses are not within the same Context of the same Surreh. You are putting two verse which has nothing to do with each other, withing the same context using your imagination.
I hope you see

I don't see the contradiction because people has many meanings in Quran. For example, human race is said to be an umma as other animals are. Sects can be thought of as people/nations as it does about bani-Israel divided into good and bad sects in Surah A'raaf.

In some cases in Quran it talks about each nation/people with a witness, so divided them by leaders from God. But here this is not the case, it just means the people that were destroyed or will be destroyed or better yet "warned about destruction" , they all had a term, which they cannot be delayed or brought forward.

By "For every people", I'm saying means for every people that was or will be warned about destruction.

Now Imam Mahdi (a) is a Messenger that will come to the whole world, and so this is warning the whole world, that if he sets times for each city and each people, the destruction will come and no one can delay it if it comes.

 

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And what shows that implicitly is the Messengers mentioned before that are all destruction types leading to that sentence.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I don't see the contradiction because people has many meanings in Quran.

Let's see.

For example, human race is said to be an umma as other animals are.

You need to back this up, by quoting Quran.
I don't believe this is true.

Sects can be thought of as people/nations as it does about bani-Israel divided into good and bad sects in Surah A'raaf.

Nope. Sect has a different word. Umma never, ever, ever is used for sects.
sect is فرقه، فريقا

You need to back your claim with the verse or a Hadith that is authentic.

In some cases in Quran it talks about each nation/people with a witness, so divided them by leaders from God.

That is true. Those leaders, are the Messengers sent to them. Thus, for example, Ummah of Muhammad, Ummah of Jesus, Ummah of Moses, etc.

But here this is not the case, it just means the people that were destroyed or will be destroyed or better yet "warned about destruction" , they all had a term, which they cannot be delayed or brought forward.

It does not say "Destroyed". It says it has a Period. Two different things. You are making a claim, as if I am suppose to accept your opinion as valid.
i only accept, if Quran actually says that, or, an Authentic Hadith that says that.

By "For every people", I'm saying means for every people that was or will be warned about destruction.

Nope. You are making it up. It does not say for every people "that will be destructed". It says what it says "For every people" period...

Now Imam Mahdi (a) is a Messenger that will come to the whole world, and so this is warning the whole world, that if he sets times for each city and each people, the destruction will come and no one can delay it if it comes.

Again you are making a tafseer from Imagination.

 

[Truthseeker]

Yet the tense is in past. Majority of translations got it wrong in this case.

It's good in a sense you have your own take on the Qur'an in an independent way, but in my opinion you are blind to any understanding but your own. I've seen this in this thread. I don't know why you are this way, I can't read minds. You may not even be aware you are this way.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

And what shows that implicitly is the Messengers mentioned before that are all destruction types leading to that sentence.

Quran does not divide Messengers into two types, "Destruction type" and "Non- Destruction type". You are making this up.

 

[Link]

You need to back this up, by quoting Quran.
I don't believe this is true.

وَمَا مِنْ دَابَّةٍ فِي الْأَرْضِ وَلَا طَائِرٍ يَطِيرُ بِجَنَاحَيْهِ إِلَّا أُمَمٌ أَمْثَالُكُمْ ۚ مَا فَرَّطْنَا فِي الْكِتَابِ مِنْ شَيْءٍ ۚ ثُمَّ إِلَىٰ رَبِّهِمْ يُحْشَرُونَ | There is no animal on land, nor a bird that flies with its wings, but they are communities like yourselves. We have not omitted anything from the Book. Then they will be mustered toward their Lord. | Al-An'aam : 38

It's the same word, plural version.

You need to back your claim with the verse or a Hadith that is authentic.

وَقَطَّعْنَاهُمْ فِي الْأَرْضِ أُمَمًا ۖ مِنْهُمُ الصَّالِحُونَ وَمِنْهُمْ دُونَ ذَٰلِكَ ۖ وَبَلَوْنَاهُمْ بِالْحَسَنَاتِ وَالسَّيِّئَاتِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَرْجِعُونَ | We dispersed them into communities around the earth: some of them were righteous, and some of them otherwise, and We tested them with good and bad [times] so that they may come back. | Al-A'raaf : 168

That is true. Those leaders, are the Messengers sent to them. Thus, for example, Ummah of Muhammad, Ummah of Jesus, Ummah of Moses, etc.

The hadiths show it's leaders like Ali (a), Hassan (a), Hussain (a). Also, the Quran shows the same. I've shown you these hadiths before. I will look them up and post them again.

It does not say "Destroyed". It says it has a Period. Two different things. You are making a claim, as if I am suppose to accept your opinion as valid.
i only accept, if Quran actually says that, or, an Authentic Hadith that says that.



Nope. You are making it up. It does not say for every people "that will be destructed". It says what it says "For every people" period...


Again you are making a tafseer from Imagination.

I understand why you don't see it. Because to you language is not contextual. Otherwise, if you were able to contextualize language, you would believe in the day of judgment like Muslims do as well as Angels like Muslims do.

The context shows "for every people" means just as I explained. Otherwise, why talk about all these destroyed nations as examples before that?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@Link

You do not want to accept, the Quran as it is.

The verse 7:34 does not even require interpretation.

It says, every Ummah has a Period.
For example Ummah of Moses had a Period. Its period ended with Jesus. Because once Jesus came, the Ummah was then the Ummah of Jesus. The Period of Ummah of Moses had ended.
Likewise, whe Muhammad came, the period of Ummah of Jesus ended. Because at that time, the Ummah was, Ummah of Muhammad.
It has nothing to do with destruction.
Otherwise Zoroasterians, Jews or Christians would have been destroyed. Or at least one of them would have been desteoyed.
How come only those people who cannot even Historically prove they existed were destroyed?
You cannot any people were ever destroyed Historically. You cannot prove any Miracles happend actually Historically. You just have these things in your imagination and have taken your imagination as Reality.