For Muslims: Is Muhammad the last Prophet from God?

[firedragon]

By the way. If I call any sisters, "brother", I must apologize before you point it out like long ago and I have my foot in my mouth.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Let me cut and paste my comment so that you could read again and not avoid it. You cannot just say "I just know it points to that". It's like a feeling.

quoted verses that say very clearly "we sent messengers before you". That's explicit. But why can't you bring one explicit verse that says "we will send messengers after you"? Go on. Find one. This is the most important factor for your theology. Find one single explicit verse.

Repeat. Explicit verse.

You will never ever in your life be able to do that. That's why you will have to posit your feelings onto the Qur'an.

Of course the next comment will be another feeling brother. So if that is the case, let's not engage anymore on this topic. There is no point.

There is nothing more clear and more explicitly said in the Quran, than Day of Resurrection, and meeting with Lord.
Baha'u'llah reminds these verses of the Quran, in His Book of Ighan:

"Even as He hath revealed: “As for those who believe not in the signs of God, or that they shall ever meet Him, these of My mercy shall despair, and for them doth a grievous chastisement await.”
Also He saith: “They who bear in mind that they shall attain unto the Presence of their Lord, and that unto Him shall they return.” Also in another instance
He saith: “They who held it as certain that they must meet God, said, ‘How oft, by God’s will, hath a small host vanquished a numerous host!’” In yet another instance He revealeth: “Let him then who hopeth to attain the presence of his Lord work a righteous work.” And also He saith: “He ordereth all things. He maketh His signs clear, that ye may have firm faith in attaining the presence of your Lord.”

This people have repudiated all these verses, that unmistakably testify to the reality of “attainment unto the Divine Presence.” No theme hath been more emphatically asserted in the holy scriptures.
Notwithstanding, they have deprived themselves of this lofty and most exalted rank, this supreme and glorious station. Some have contended that by “attainment unto the Divine Presence” is meant the
“Revelation” of God in the Day of Resurrection. "
Baha'u'llah

 

[InvestigateTruth]

By the way. If I call any sisters, "brother", I must apologize before you point it out like long ago and I have my foot in my mouth.

It does not really matter, but if you take a second and look in the profile, it tells their gender. Uless they kept their profile info private.

 

[firedragon]

There is nothing more clear and more explicitly said in the Quran, than Day of Resurrection, and meeting with Lord.
Baha'u'llah reminds these verses of the Quran, in His Book of Ighan:

"Even as He hath revealed: “As for those who believe not in the signs of God, or that they shall ever meet Him, these of My mercy shall despair, and for them doth a grievous chastisement await.”
Also He saith: “They who bear in mind that they shall attain unto the Presence of their Lord, and that unto Him shall they return.” Also in another instance
He saith: “They who held it as certain that they must meet God, said, ‘How oft, by God’s will, hath a small host vanquished a numerous host!’” In yet another instance He revealeth: “Let him then who hopeth to attain the presence of his Lord work a righteous work.” And also He saith: “He ordereth all things. He maketh His signs clear, that ye may have firm faith in attaining the presence of your Lord.”

This people have repudiated all these verses, that unmistakably testify to the reality of “attainment unto the Divine Presence.” No theme hath been more emphatically asserted in the holy scriptures.
Notwithstanding, they have deprived themselves of this lofty and most exalted rank, this supreme and glorious station. Some have contended that by “attainment unto the Divine Presence” is meant the
“Revelation” of God in the Day of Resurrection. "
Baha'u'llah

Again.

You quoted verses that say very clearly "we sent messengers before you". That's explicit. But why can't you bring one explicit verse that says "we will send messengers after you"? Go on. Find one. This is the most important factor for your theology. Find one single explicit verse.

 

[firedragon]

It does not really matter, but if you take a second and look in the profile, it tells their gender. Uless they kept their profile info private.

I honestly don't know how to do that.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Again.

You quoted verses that say very clearly "we sent messengers before you".

Right.

That's explicit.

correct.

But why can't you bring one explicit verse that says "we will send messengers after you"?

Why when God said we will meet with the Lord, it can mean anything else, other than meeting with His Messenger?

What else could it mean?

To me, Quran is written in a way, that wants us to think about its verses to discover the truth.

Go on. Find one. This is the most important factor for your theology. Find one single explicit verse.

Sure, here is one, exactly as you are asking:


یَـٰبَنِیۤ ءَادَمَ إِمَّا یَأۡتِیَنَّكُمۡ رُسُلࣱ مِّنكُمۡ یَقُصُّونَ عَلَیۡكُمۡ ءَایَـٰتِی فَمَنِ ٱتَّقَىٰ وَأَصۡلَحَ فَلَا خَوۡفٌ عَلَیۡهِمۡ وَلَا هُمۡ یَحۡزَنُونَ
7:35


"Oh children of Adam! Messengers will surely come to you from among your own, and they will relate My revelations to you. Then, those who refrain from evil and mend their ways shall have nothing to fear; nor shall they (ever) grieve (or be sorry)" 7:35 translated by Dr. Munir Munshey

Here is another translation:

"O children of Adam! Verily, there will come to you Messengers from amongst you, narrating unto you My Signs; then whoever fears Allah (refrains from evil) and does what is right (makes amends), there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve" 7:35 Translated by Hamid S. Azizi


George Sale translation:

"O children of Adam, verily apostles from among you shall come unto you, who shall expound my signs unto you: Whosoever therefore shall fear God and amend, there shall come no fear on them, neither shall they be grieved"


Edward Henry Palmer Translation:

"O sons of Adam! verily, there will come to you apostles from amongst you, narrating unto you my signs; then whoso fears God and does what is right, there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve"


John Medows Rodwell translation:

"O children of Adam! there shall come to you Apostles from among yourselves, rehearsing my signs to you; and whoso shall fear God and do good works, no fear shall be upon them, neither shall they be put to grief"


Some translated as "if there comes" or " when there comes", but it is not correct.

إِمَّا before یَأۡتِیَنَّكُمۡ is to emphasize. It means certainly or Surely shall come.

 

[England my lionheart]

I am aiming to show that Muhammad was not the last prophet of God to Muslims, not more than that. Of course many of you know that I have a particular prophet in mind, but I will not seek to prove that that prophet is the next prophet of God to Muslims. I carefully gleaned the following from a Moojan Momen book. The Qur'an quotes, some of the reasoning behind presenting these are his, and I carefully checked out if what he was presenting was valid or a stretch. As this is in General Religious Debates anyone can join in, but I encourage Muslims to do so.

40. Muhammad is not
The father of any
Of your men, but (he is)
The Apostle of God,
And the Seal of the Prophets:
And God has full knowledge
Of all things.
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 33.40

I will not dispute the meaning of this verse at first, we can argue that along the way, but start with this verse from the Qur'an:

Then is it only a part of the
Book That ye believe in,
And do ye reject the rest?
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 2.85

This portion of that verse says to me that we need to consider the whole of the Qur'an in order to come to a logical conclusion.

34. To every People is a term. Appointed: when their term Is reached, not an hour Can they cause delay, Nor (an hour) can they Advance (it in anticipation).

35. O ye Children of Adam! Whenever there come to you Apostles from amongst you, Rehearsing My Signs unto you, Those who are righteous And mend (their lives), — On them shall be no fear Nor shall they grieve.
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 7.34

The original Arabic translated as people is I opine is a religious community. Apostles rehearsing signs can also be translated as Messengers. This translation is from Yusuf Ali.

Also in the Qur'an it is stated;

47. To every people (was sent)
An Apostle: when their Apostle
Comes (before them), the matter
Will be judged between them
With justice, and they
Will not be wronged.
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 10.47

Also translated by Yusuf Ali. All these passage are translated by Yusuf Ali. What this partially establishes is the “people” means “religious community”, and “Apostle” means “Messenger”. It also says that in the past one of these Messengers was sent to every “religious community” in the world. The reference to “the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged.” means to me that the religious community this Messenger comes to will be judged by their response to this Messenger in a just way.

Also notice this verse:

67. To every People have We
Appointed rites and ceremonies
Which they must follow:
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 22.67

What else but a religious community would have appointed rites and ceremonies? So people translated by Yusuf Ali means religious community. So to return back to the original verses:

34. To every People is a term Appointed: when their term Is reached, not an hour Can they cause delay, Nor (an hour) can they Advance (it in anticipation).

35. O ye Children of Adam! Whenever there come to you Apostles from amongst you, Rehearsing My Signs unto you, Those who are righteous And mend (their lives), — On them shall be no fear Nor shall they grieve.
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 7.34

For every religious community is a term appointed with no exception. I assert that this includes the Islamic community. Also “the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged.” I derive from Qur'an 10:47.

I also am of the opinion that the new Messenger comes with a new holy book and a new teaching confirming part of the teachings of the Qur'an, but also abrogating part of it.

38. We did send apostles Before thee, and appointed For them wives and children: And it was never the part Of an apostle to bring a Sign Except as God permitted (Or commanded). For each period Is a Book (revealed).

39. God doth blot out Or confirm what He pleaseth: With Him is The Mother of the Book.
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 13.38

There is no limit of how many Words of God could be revealed.

27. And if all the trees
On earth were pens
And the Ocean (were ink),
With seven Oceans behind it
To add to its (supply),
Yet would not the Words
Of God be exhausted
(In the writing): for God
Is Exalted in power,
Full of Wisdom.
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 31.27

God has established a covenant that whenever a Messenger of God comes, human beings should accept that Messenger and help him:

81. Behold! God took
The Covenant of the Prophets,
Saying: “I give you
A Book and Wisdom;
Then comes to you
An Apostle, confirming
What is with you;
Do ye believe in him
And render him help.”
God said: “Do ye agree,
And take this my Covenant
As binding on you?”
They said: “We agree.”
He said: “Then bear witness,
And I am with you
Among the witnesses.”
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 3.81

The Qur'an confirms that this covenant was taken with all of the messengers, including Muhammad.

7. And remember We took
From the Prophets their
Covenant:
As (We did) from thee:
From Noah, Abraham, Moses,
And Jesus the son of Mary:
We took from them
A solemn Covenant:
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 33.7

There will always be a need for Messengers of God:

95. Say, “If there were settled,
On earth, angels walking about
In peace and quiet, We should
Certainly have sent them
Down from the heavens
An angel for an apostle.”
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 17.95

How do you determine whether they are prophets in the first place,was Muhammed the last prophet?,I would say no as there is no proof that he was a prophet so as the op I agree with the op,no he wasn’t.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

How do you determine whether they are prophets in the first place,was Muhammed the last prophet?,I would say no as there is no proof that he was a prophet so as the op I agree with the op,no he wasn’t.

That is a good point.

However, regardless if one believes that Muhammad was a true Prophet or not, the debate can be: "Did Muhammad meant to say, there will be future Messengers after Him, or He meant to say, He is the Final Prophet?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I honestly don't know how to do that.

Click on the profile name, when the box comes up, click on the profile name again, then there will be a tab "About", click on that an if it is not hidden and they answered the question, you can see the gender.

Regards Tony

 

[England my lionheart]

That is a good point.

However, regardless if one believes that Muhammad was a true Prophet or not, the debate can be: "Did Muhammad meant to say, there will be future Messengers after Him, or He meant to say, He is the Final Prophet?

What Muhammed meant to say is conjecture

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What Muhammed meant to say is conjecture

Unless it has been clarified.

Regards Tony

 

[England my lionheart]

Unless it has been clarified.

Regards Tony

So let’s have clarification,good luck

 

[Truthseeker]

Click on the profile name, when the box comes up, click on the profile name again, then there will be a tab "About", click on that an if it is not hidden and they answered the question, you can see the gender.

Regards Tony

Incidentally, about clicking on a profile name, when I do that with you a get an "oops! This person limits who can see their profile". This has happened before, and I know you did not single me out because you are upset with me, but I would like to access your profile. I am following you still, and want to be able to see what you have posted, so I might help out.

 

[Truthseeker]

Again.

You quoted verses that say very clearly "we sent messengers before you". That's explicit. But why can't you bring one explicit verse that says "we will send messengers after you"? Go on. Find one. This is the most important factor for your theology. Find one single explicit verse.

There was no explicit verse in Christianity either that says that. In fact Christians point to this verse:
14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
(King James Bible, John)
Or how about this one:
24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
(King James Bible, Matthew)

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Incidentally, about clicking on a profile name, when I do that with you a get an "oops! This person limits who can see their profile". This has happened before, and I know you did not single me out because you are upset with me, but I would like to access your profile. I am following you still, and want to be able to see what you have posted, so I might help out.

I will not be around much at this time Truthseeker.

All the best to you and your family, stay happy and stay safe, Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

Right.




correct.


Why when God said we will meet with the Lord, it can mean anything else, other than meeting with His Messenger?

What else could it mean?

To me, Quran is written in a way, that wants us to think about its verses to discover the truth.



Sure, here is one, exactly as you are asking:


یَـٰبَنِیۤ ءَادَمَ إِمَّا یَأۡتِیَنَّكُمۡ رُسُلࣱ مِّنكُمۡ یَقُصُّونَ عَلَیۡكُمۡ ءَایَـٰتِی فَمَنِ ٱتَّقَىٰ وَأَصۡلَحَ فَلَا خَوۡفٌ عَلَیۡهِمۡ وَلَا هُمۡ یَحۡزَنُونَ
7:35


"Oh children of Adam! Messengers will surely come to you from among your own, and they will relate My revelations to you. Then, those who refrain from evil and mend their ways shall have nothing to fear; nor shall they (ever) grieve (or be sorry)" 7:35 translated by Dr. Munir Munshey

Here is another translation:

"O children of Adam! Verily, there will come to you Messengers from amongst you, narrating unto you My Signs; then whoever fears Allah (refrains from evil) and does what is right (makes amends), there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve" 7:35 Translated by Hamid S. Azizi


George Sale translation:

"O children of Adam, verily apostles from among you shall come unto you, who shall expound my signs unto you: Whosoever therefore shall fear God and amend, there shall come no fear on them, neither shall they be grieved"


Edward Henry Palmer Translation:

"O sons of Adam! verily, there will come to you apostles from amongst you, narrating unto you my signs; then whoso fears God and does what is right, there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve"


John Medows Rodwell translation:

"O children of Adam! there shall come to you Apostles from among yourselves, rehearsing my signs to you; and whoso shall fear God and do good works, no fear shall be upon them, neither shall they be put to grief"


Some translated as "if there comes" or " when there comes", but it is not correct.

إِمَّا before یَأۡتِیَنَّكُمۡ is to emphasize. It means certainly or Surely shall come.

Not a single explicit verse that speaks to Muhammed and says "there will be a prophet after you". This is all like the Christians trying to justify the trinity from the Old Testament.

Also, your language understanding is zero. Your understanding of the Qur'an is very poor. The Qur'an says "Immaa". It's a Hard Sharth. When, If, or a hypothetical situation. And it's in the Al Maadhi tense which means it applies to people it's addressing. It's only a lesson for us.

So again, You quoted verses that say very clearly "we sent messengers before you". That's explicit. But why can't you bring one explicit verse that says "we will send messengers after you"? Go on. Find one. This is the most important factor for your theology. Find one single explicit verse.

 

[firedragon]

How do you determine whether they are prophets in the first place,was Muhammed the last prophet?,I would say no as there is no proof that he was a prophet so as the op I agree with the op,no he wasn’t.

This discussion is from within the theological paradigm. It's not for questioning the prophethood of Muhammed. You are being irrelevant to the topic.

 

[firedragon]

There was no explicit verse in Christianity

That's irrelevant. Who cares about that? This is just a red herring.

 

[firedragon]

But then, you have more extensive knowledge than I do. Show me that in some instances Ummah means something other than a religious community.

Sure. I'll give you the easiest reference on the internet. The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Quran Dictionary

You could go to "any" good arabic dictionary. Check under Hamza/Alif, meem, meem. Ummah will mean a community, nation. Subjectively one could call it a religious community. That means as an individual you could call your religious community as "Ummah". Singular. But when it's looked at objectively it will be tribes, nations, people etc. It will have a socio-political context. And it's absolutely objective when you pluralize it. Sorry brother. This notion was absurd when it comes to this particular verse. It's Kulli Ummathin, which is Jamea, which means nations or every nation. Not every religious community. Honestly, you would not believe how far this simple wording has been stretched and I really don't understand why. This was either someone who has no clue of Arabic, or it was done intentionally for what ever reason.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Not a single one of these verses prove that there will be a messenger after Muhammmed. Your theology is based on vague verses, allegorization of what does not suit, and concoction of new meanings misleading the ignorant of the arabic language.

How in the world did you make up the meaning of "community of believers" with the word of Ummathin in the Majroor? Very rarely do I see deception like that.

You yourself quoted verses that say very clearly "we sent messengers before you". That's explicit. But why can't you bring one explicit verse that says "we will send messengers after you"? Go on. Find one. This is the most important factor for your theology. Find one single explicit verse.

Let's see if you do.

The appearance of His Manifestation is mentioned explicitly in the Qurʼán, without any need for commentary or interpretation: “And thy Lord shall come and the angels rank on rank” (89:22) )Abdul-Baha)

50 And now have we brought them the Book: with knowledge have we explained it; a guidance and a mercy to them that believe. What have they to wait for now but its interpretation? When its interpretation shall come, they who aforetime were oblivious of it shall say, ‘The Prophets of our Lord did indeed bring the truth;

Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah brought the only true interpretation of the Quran from God mentioned above. Human knowledge and learning can never compare to Divine Knowledge.

Another issue is it is neither necessary nor advantageous to know Arabic or even be learned to recognise a new Manifestation of God. In the days of Christ His disciples were not learned men and Muhammad’s first followers did not possess the entire Quran yet were able to recognise, without any scripture , that He was sent by God.

A pure and sincere heart is what is required to be able to ‘see God’ and recognise His Messengers. Humbling ourselves before Him is far more important than all human knowledge.

This passage from Baha’u’llah explains the truly knowledgeable person is one who humbles Himself before God. How many ‘unlettered’ accepted Christ and Muhammad but the learned in that time and today have turned away from God merely because they consider themselves ‘knowledgeable’. The criteria has always been a ‘pure heart’.

“Consider, how can he that faileth in the day of God’s Revelation to attain unto the grace of the “Divine Presence” and to recognize His Manifestation, be justly called learned, though he may have spent aeons in the pursuit of knowledge, and acquired all the limited and material learning of men? It is surely evident that he can in no wise be regarded as possessed of true knowledge. Whereas, the most unlettered of all men, if he be honored with this supreme distinction, he verily is accounted as one of those divinely learned men whose knowledge is of God; for such a man hath attained the acme of knowledge, and hath reached the furthermost summit of learning.”

Baha'u'llah